Belief in Existentialism

There is a personality theory in psychology of personality that suggests,

we as humans, begin to ‘construct’ meaning for our existence, after we become aware of ourselves, as the agents for that meaning making through our lives.

some of us might say, that we are Muslims, so our destiny is preordained & eentually things get done according to the will of our Maker, others might say, we are bound by our environmental limitations or may thrive due to the advantages there in at our disposal, so on & so forth.

so, what’s ur take on this?

chime in!

Dushi

Re: Belief in Existentialism

You mean Asma Jehangir did not enlighten you on this? Wow I am shocked. I thought she had all the answers.

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**Just because Allah (SWT) knows and is aware of what choices we will make and what the outcome will be does not mean we do not have free will, the choices we make and the paths we take are totally our own decisions, and also the outcome for both the good choice and not so good choice are known to Allah (SWT) **


However we drive our own destinies.

FYI

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Thank you so much for bringing up this point.

I do not mean any disrespect to my Creator or any of you....But I don't quite understand this and do need a logical explanation. If Allah knows what I am going to pray for and when....He also knows whether my prayers will be answered or not. So when I am praying, I am also thinking Is my prayer pre-answered? Where is He? Since He already knows my destiny, does He need to be around? I need to believe that I have a choice and can use my free will. And that Allah/God/Creator will act according to how I use that free will.

Can anyone help calrify my confusion...Sorry its difficult to put into words.

Dushwari ... on your thoughts...Sometimes I feel we are working in reverse process. Something like I am...therefore I believe instead of I believe... therefore I am. After looking at our situation, we work backwards and make up our beliefs. So I think you are so right in saying we construct meaning for our existence. Somehow, people's beliefs do change (altho slightly sometimes) according to their situations.

Hope I have expressed my thoughts well enough for you to get their meaning.

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aly-sam,

thanks for knowing me so much better, than many would want to know. thanks so much. that is so true, i do make use of thoughts in reverse, in an effort to make a better understanding of the philosophical rules that our lives’s cycles and circles are orbiting on.

u raise a good point, too and that is , yes, our Maker did create us, & he says that he gave us the will power to do well, and not do ill.
& the whol concept of Islam, as an instance Religion, is that we are expected to live it, without any compulsion, but, out of our own feree-will’s accord.

and then the judgement will be called upon us.

reading surah al-Isra

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/017.qmt.html

makes it so clear.

thanks for ur enlightening views each time u post on my threads.

women are wiser :>

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:halo: dushii

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The theme seems to be that, “existence precedes essence”, i.e. we decide on “what we are” after our existence, we don’t have a pre-known essence.

I think philosophy is true in its theme, “meaning of life” that we decide or the question itself gets raised in the our own way of existence, there is a famous sentence showing this point, i.e. “the essence of being lies in becomming”.

Now pre-destination doesn’t fit into this concept, And we look at closely, “pre-destination” of religion is something we discover in this world ( thats other case that we agree with it or not), And depending on culture you are living in, decides what kind of question come to your mind and wha kind of answers that you can provide.

I think its quite clear that we are not free, Its not only that God is all-knowing, with that God is also all-powerfull. And also that, God has these qualities absolutely(means that there isn’t any limitation to his powers).

Now imagine this situation, Right now God has to decide on to create Mr A, Now at this right moment before that the decision, God knows that Mr A, will do blah, blah, blah… Sins and will go to hell.

Now since God is creating Mr A, in a specific way different from other people, and God also has the power to make alterations in the way he is creating Mr A, and being all knowing he would know that what sort of changes that he would do will make this person going in the heaven. So at this very moment why God is not creating this specific person Mr A differently so that he will go to heaven?

Obviously it is God, who has the power, to create what kind of individuals he wants to Create. So there is a pre-destination over which we have no control, hence we are not free our choices are already determined.

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**How come no one told Amma Hawwa that?...:( **

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As an english revert to the cause, I believe that some things are easy to contemplate and understand given the fact that they are there not to confuse but rather to enlighten..Namely the Quran...
If you cant understand it then you are not looking at it in the right way.

This is my take on the creation of mankind;
1- Gods creates all souls and gives life. The state our awakening reveals to the almighty our true nature given the free will that we possess. Some of us complain unhappy and some of us are calm and happy. God plays no role in our behaviour. This also reveals to our creator our hunger for belief in him. We then lie in a state of deep sleep until our re-birth on earth.
2-
God now having determined what is in store for us using our own free will with regards to our belief in him and our everyday actions, the second birth on earth is essentially another chance to make mends for our initial disbelief using our own free will.
This part of our lifecycle is the one that matters since we have understanding and free will to choose right from wrong. He knows and has seen what we will do but really we have the power(as he has given us) to change that and he is aware of that as this second creation was done to c if we change throughout the course of our lives and untimatly change our destiny. Should we remain ignorant, god already knows the punishment we will endure but even though some may be destined for the hellfire, they can also change their destiny should they desire to cleanse their hearts and souls. If not, whats predertimined will take place..(God is so flexible towards all)
3-
We spiritual beings will cease to exist in our human experience and now be in the same initial state of creation that the almighty first created us in. We cannot now complain as we will come to know our initial stance and realise what our later stance on earth was.
Now comes the punishment in our graves for errors commited in our lifetimes. No one will be wronged if they dont deserve it but those that do, will realise why they are being punished.

Most of what you say and think is because of your lack of faith and confusion that you most probably inherited from other atheists.
You might as well ask who created god....

But to some of us, these things are the most simple things to contemplate whilst the likes of yours will never get it and the reason for that maybe,because of your initial disbelief and complaining(complained to god about being created in the first place), the almighty disabled certain functions of your brain so that you never achieve belief in him. Many wont no matter how much they try...

No disrespect to you dude but this is my sincere belief.
Should my understanding be wrong, please enlighten me as I have only recently accepted Islam as my Deen.

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I am so happy for you that you have found your faith.

I am also pleased to note that you do believe in free will....which in my mind causes the confusion to accept the quality of God as being All-Knowing. Maybe I can explain more clearly....
Situation 1
1. God has created me and has endowed me with free will.
2. I am unable to have a baby after years of trying...therefore, I pray for a child.
3. It was my free will to pray for a child.
4. God is happy that I prayed and therefore answers my prayer....in this case He did not know I was going to pray and therefore...is not All-Knowing.
ie Man has free will = God is not all Knowing

Situation 2
1. God has created me and pre-destined that I should have a child.
2. He also knows whether I am going to pray or not.
3. God is All-Knowing and I have not excercised my free will
ie God is all knowing = Man does not have free will.

OK so now please explain how you can say ""God plays no role in our behaviour"" as well as "'God has disabled certain functions of your brain so that you never achieve belief in him"

Also what makes you certain that I have complained to God about being created...I am questioning as is my right...To ask questions does not mean to complain. I want to understand more and increase my knowledge....once again encouraged in Islam.

And I re-iterate that my line of questioning is not to criticise or dis-respect pls do not be on the defensive...I only wish to know.

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Aly-sam its so wierd sometimes i kinda feel like we sorta think somewhat alike. I totally get what u mean, i am always confused by the idea that god controls and knows everything, including our destiny..but yet we have free choice also! it puzzled me for a while, so here’s my solution to the delimma though not sure if it makes any sense.
i call it “Nizam-e-khalq” i really like that word and would like one day to write a book on it!! and no one better steal my idea :mad:

anyway, so clearly there is order in nature..u know like how each little and sometimes scary and disgusting creature has a role to play…like how plants put out oxegen which we inhale and exhale carbondioxide which plants use (i think i got that right) or how animals when they die they become part of the eart which sustains the grass that they then eat…do u know what i mean there is order to this universe! and there is a justice about it too in this wierd kinda way. if u step back and look at the whole big picture u see that and u can truly appreciate god so much more!! Allah-hu-akbar / all-hum-du-lillah makes a whole lot of sense when one is able to see that nizam-e-khalq (or atleast i think :))
for instance like…if we are not kind to our planet and we chop innocent trees and pollute our waters and hurt species that are defenseless against us, technically we hurt ourselves, b/c as we chop trees we give our children asthma and other problems, as we pollute our waters we eat fish with mercury and infact contaminate our own bodies! so u see there is this random justice and order to this planet.

And ofcourse Allah knows that, as he made this whole world and gave it the order i speak of. so i think thats really what we mean when we say god knows all and knows our destiny..he knows that b/c there are cetain principles in this universe what we do will cause a certain reaction. its like a computer life i think…we think we are randomly pressing keys and they will have all sorts of unexpected reactions, but the truth is…the reactions are all working according to a pre-set program! so when we hit a key a certain result will most certainly come about…but b/c the program is soooo complicated (as it is divine) we think its random and unexpected. so since god knows the program he knows when a person is born..the keys that are being tapped in thier life and knows what the result will be! does that make any sense.

anyway so since he is the master programmer he is given us certain rules, and otherwise freedom to choose whatever, we can choose to follow his rules, or just hit whichever key we want and do whatever!
and as we learn more …we realize his greatness, we learn about the tiny little nucleaus in our bodies, the cells with neutrons and protons and we realize how dependant we are on our environment, and we realize through science that when we bend down to say our prayers we take the stress off our vertebrae, and that when we focus on saying our prayers we build concentration, and that if we say them timely five times a day we build self-discipline, we learn these things slowly…we see his greatness the more we know…

but still some of us would rather just press random keys and live, others would learn from our mistakes, others would try and learn in general from our collective experince (be it science/ philospohy/ medicince, math, engineering etc) and learn hitting which key leads to what sort of results, others would rather follow the guidlines given by who belive is the master creator! so i think we have choice but withink the confines of the program made by god.

Its like a comp. if u will..god createdt eh comp and the program, and we are all sorta just pressing keys and we think b/c of what we know that a certain result will come about… but really only he knows, and i guess as we learn more about his program…the more we think we are in control..but really we are not! b/c its too complicated a program…i mean the universe is sooo huge and even our bodies we still have yet to figure our whats truly in an atom…we think we know…but do we!?!

anyway i dont know if that helps..perhaps that makes it even more confusing! when i was young i prayed to god to guide me cause i felt soo lost, i mean i still do…but i was very young, and had read all these philosophy books, i think i was still a teen, and they made it difficult to believe in God. So my choice to not remain ignorant made me doubt my bleief in god, not through any fault of my own… i did not want to doubt but i didnt want to be illogical/ ignorant! so i prayed, and things became clearer after that..to me atleast, though not sure if the above makes sense to others.

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Farwah....

I don't know your age...I can only guess you are young....but My God that reply!...you are so wise beyond your years.

That post has touched my heart and brought a tear to my eye.

I have read it and am going to re-read it and going to save this for my kids. I could never explain to them the way you have. I want to comment on some things...but need some time.

Thank you and God Bless you....You are to me a true Muslim...or a true human...or even an angel!

Thank you Dushi for starting this thread.

Will reply soon.

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thanks everybody. Words, Farwah, alysam, portal, kaleem, & sindsagar.

i'm so happy, that we sustain this chain of rich and diverse sharing of perspectives on novel but really, very common trails of knowing and thinking.u are all so intellectually like minded & supportive, able to understand our comprehensions as best as we can think about them, given the fixed limitations of the universe, & of our personal situations in this world.

this is in part, meta-cognition - knowing of the knowing, & Farwah's point of nizam-e-khalq is true of course, since religion gives meaning to life, and a principle to follow.

i think that we are God’s creatures of life & death cycles, if u will. and these cycles do have good and bad in them, and we are equipped psychologically to stay on the good side, but we are also susceptible to the tendency of faltering & that trial and error or tragedy of errors makes us, wise or worse off. it is a constant struggle & those who are strong & sure-footed win, & those we are not, they become prey to ill-fate in this world and in the after-life.

the potion of prayer, logic, reasoning, humanity, practicality, balance & good will is indeed a pre req to making this cycle work, without diabolical self destructive nature to play its numbers on us.
as humans, we are still, limited in our capacities, but what we have, we must make the best use of it.

world is built on hope, i’ve heard countless times, so, i feel that it must mean something persuasive enough to motivate each & every body for doing the best they can and leave the rest to our Maker. collective good or bad does happen & that is why a family and a community oriented mindset is so important rather than a secular, individualistic self-absorbed notion of selfish gratifications.

existentialist therapy also says the same - the client needs to make sense of her/his own life situation & with the therapist, come up with some concrete plan of smaller steps which will help construct the meaning of life, for the client to operate by. it’s up to the client, depending on whatever good s/he has impressions from, are utilized to form that meaning. some people are religious, others are ‘areligious‘, some are moral, some ‘amoral‘, & the life experiences and the factors from the environment has a lot to do with it.
some have inner good, others are miserable, some are strong willed, others, confused or easily coerced. & so yes, there is Random but precalculated justice in this life that no one can escape.

what we can do, is that we can make a difference in our lives, by getting our own life’s philosophy in order, then see how it works, if it works, then be open to share it with those who would like to benefit from our life lessons. we can do this through our professions, through our family life, through our conduct with a total stranger, through our connection with the rest of the Nature - our home, this world, & our Maker.
also, there should be more female philosophers. :>

hope this makes sense.

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:blush: Thanks, far far from an angel! i truly believe it was my prayer and i was fairly young so i guess God listened. but now i only hope that God gives me the wisdom to stay on the right path and the strength and discipline to follow through. Not to mention the questions you pose, like i said… I can totally relate.

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I don’t think there is any justice in this world, as you said. In my opinion this world is full of cruelity, thats why it seems quite romantic and un-realistic to assume a good God as assumed by Islam and Chirstianity.

The existence of Pain and Death, and Life the way it is, is sufficient evidence to show this.

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I find it difficult to think that God is not good...that pain death etc is the only way for life...
Experience the miracle of a birth...or even a flower blooming over the days..have you saved a bird with a broken wing and watched it fly away after you have tended it?....you may then know that god is good. No trying to be romantic but maybe we all need something to hold on to. Surely when you have a good day dont you think...wow such a wonderful day...maybe god or maybe someones good wishes....or how do you explain that?

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Irrespective of good and bad day i’m having and looking at the matter clearly, Death is death and Pain shows itself, either it come on me or any body else. That specific day when we are happy, doesn’t shows that this world is created by an absolutely Mercifull God, But a single hour on someone, with a broken arm or leg, feeling pain at its extreme, surely shows that there isn’t any Merci.

Sorry to say but its like playing with the vulnerable beings, and their vulnerability isn’t accidental, but intended by God himself. So?

Sometimes people say that, Pain is a good thing because its a signal for a problem in the body, But this makes situation more worst, Wasn’t God not able to assemble us with some better way of signalling? If you claim that he is absolutely powerfull and Mercifull then he obviously was able, So Why he isn’t doing it? The answer which people give is that he may know his reasons. But this is just another excuse. Question is that why we are associating such properties with him which his actions are not reflecting?

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my goodness! my head aches trying to read any thread in this section! thank God i did not do peelowsoapy!

question is this also preordiained?

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welcome to the world of garem baraf!!!!!

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Perhaps your vision of God is b/c of what you are experiencing right now. I wonder if you were going through better experiences what you might have thought of God!

Sometimes though you need to a dig a bit deeper ..sometimes u have to make a big! effort to see the good things in life. if nothing else, u can always appreciate the night sky! i am afraid to not appreciate everything he is given me lest he take it away from me. I think in consistently praising God you learn to find reasons to appreciate him, not only that...it forces you to embed the fact (or fact as followers of Islam see it) that he is the almighty in yur mind, so whenever you fel daunted by a task you think he is with you. if you fear him and hope only from him...then you are not afraid of ppl on this planet, and are not dependant on anyone else to give you antyhing.

I think life is this test where all you are responsible for is your own actions. So you see just by virtue of that...you are always in control of your environment not other ppl ever. If you do good, then no one can take that away from you, even if they torture u if you are still able to respond in kind, and be good and still stand for what is right... the u have won!

not to mention ultimately follwing the laws god's set for us only helps us in this life. forinstance, forgiveness....if you forgive others it only helps you b/c it keeps you from becoming bitter and rotten on the inside. if you respect and help your parents you learn to become a humble and giving being and ppl like you and want to be around you, if you give to charity you learn to get happiness from giving which is a lot easier to do and the happiness you feel lasts a lot longer then the happiness you feel from buyin things which coincidently is also much harder to do. imagine how much happier your life would be if you could learn to curb your desire, instead of letting them control you!

anyway i will continue later..brain doesnt want to work anymore