Re: Belief in Existentialism
question is this also preordiained?
This was your free will...
The fact that you regret coming here is pre-ordained!!!
Now see how your head aches as you figure that out!:)
Re: Belief in Existentialism
:)
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Haha!! And here I thought I was the only one. farwah.raza “where have you been all my life?” :=P
← for the effort.
Edit: Just to clarify , I am a big advocate of this computer program analogy, except being a geek myself, my explanation involves ‘if -else loop’, probabiilty models and all such techie things :-b . I have a quesion for you though. How does ‘making duaein’ feature into the program? How does that influence the outcome? Have you thought about that aspect?
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Have you ever willed your computer program to work out right? That is duaein!
Re: Belief in Existentialism
some men cannot see the power of prayer in making things work, in asking for our Maker's pardon, in gathering the Maker's blessings or powers, if the Maker so wills.
Of course, the Maker is all knowing, all seeing, the inner depths of our hearts, yet, somehow men forget that.
that is why it is even more impt for such men to construct meaning in their lives to make them livable and purposeful. a balance between faith & practical reasoning based on humane principles is the very basis of free-will & its responsible use, that is, if men can see it as such...
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Sorry to say but its like playing with the vulnerable beings, and their vulnerability isn't accidental, but intended by God himself. So?
Sometimes people say that, Pain is a good thing because its a signal for a problem in the body, But this makes situation more worst, Wasn't God not able to assemble us with some better way of signalling? If you claim that he is absolutely powerfull and Mercifull then he obviously was able, So Why he isn't doing it? The answer which people give is that he may know his reasons. But this is just another excuse. Question is that why we are associating such properties with him which his actions are not reflecting?
It is sad to go thru life feeling that way.... I truly hope this is just a temporary feeling...as we all have ...myself very much included.
I believe Nature/God has certain rules and regulations....as so well described by Farwah. I like to compare things with real life examples so here goes:
A boy asks his parents for a bike
They do not buy him one due to:
1. financial constraints
2. dont want to spoil him by giving him immediately he asks
3. worried about his safety.
several months later, they present him with a bike much to his delight...as he had almost forgotten asking for it.
in that moment of joy, listens diligently to his parents rules and regulations ie
- dont ride too fast
- dont go out onto the streets
- always wear safety helmet
Yes yes agrees the lad and in that moment of delight makes mental promise to even help around the house.
Of course the helping bit always procrastinated, but initially he follows all rules laid down by folks.
SLowly, he begins to increase speed....
One day he ventures out into street and to his joy nothing 'bad' happened
so keeps sneaking out into the street
also ocassionaly forgets helmet.
Note all this is happening over a period of time.
One day has an accident...not too serious but feels the pain and more so humiliation.
mum applies antiseptic cream which burns him enough to scream yet necessary to stop spread of infection.
Boy does not want to blame himself but when parents ask why he did not follow rules, he gets angry at them.
Now replace parents with Nature/god and the boy with human beings.
It is human nature to blame someone...even when they are spreading antiseptic on our wounds. We fail to see the bigger picture.
I honestly cannot explain each and every tragedy...but neither can i explain all the joys in life.
We should take some responsibility ... famines are caused by humans failing to replace trees we have cut down. Of course effects are felt after several yrs so we even forget the cause of it all.
When humans are so stressed out they are most vulnerable to infection/disease - yet when we are asked to remain calm, have patience, pray/mediatate we laugh at such things.
Hope this helps.
Please dont miss out on life by feeling there is no good in this world.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
I appreciate your concern to explain the matter out. Now on topic, As i said earlier its not about How i feel about life or Am i having good or bad life, If you ask about me, I had developed ways to be happy, but irrespective of that if i look at any matter i’ll offcourse try to be as critical as possible. So lets consider this topic academically, not considering that if we discuss pain alot, then this means that we are encouraging misery in life. After all “Pain” and “Death” are topics and the mental structures on which we build our life shouldn’t be that weak that by discussing these topics openly they fall down, Atleast i don’t have such weak structures, I often discuss death with my friends, its really a interesting topic.
Now about “Pain” and “Death”, you said you can’t explain out all tragic events, and we have to take responsibility of our actions and attitudes, But you know, One can’t explain even a single event of the existence of Pain, If one assumes the kind of Absolutely Powerfull, Knowledge-full and Mercifull God. Now lets take the example of the same boy you considered, if that boy developed with the time wrong habits,
Did He really deserves the Pain, He gets when accident Happens? Please consider this question seriously. Was his developing bad habits a Sin, for which He deserved Punishment? Was he in total control to choose not to develope bad habits? And if we assume that he was(which i don’t think he was), still is it a kind of action which made pain a right kind of thing to be done to him, How can one defend this?
I’m not blaming the one, who applies the antispetic, He is human just like me, weak and vulnerable, I’m blaming the one who did all this to us, Who is in your opinion had the power to turn everything around but still he prefers this kind of odd world.
Why God used “Pain” as a tool to teach us, And Why “Pain” is a tool to treat us? Looking at all this, conclusion that there isn’t any God is quite straight for me, offcourse i had to decide on my reasoning, as i do on other matters.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
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Re: Belief in Existentialism
You based your post on the assumption, that what i’m saying is because i’m having a bad life, and then you did further explaination to how to have a good view of life and so. I think most of what you said is addressed in previous two posts of mine, but still i do address some.
Actually its not about my life that i’m seeing things that way, I have developed my own sense of meaning of life and ways to be happy in life. I don’t need to imagine a good God looking at me all the time caring about me. Now the world how it is, it is. There is “Pain”, its a phenomena we can’t ignore either we feel good or bad, “Death” is another phenomena, “Sufferings” are there, there are many bad things, many bad accidents, you may remember the recent EarthQuake which killed thousands of religious people brutally. I mean what sort of God (Concept) is this? Its too naive to imagine a deity as religion defines it, while regularly observing a totally contrast world around us.
Balance between faith and practical reasoning?
What do you mean by balance here?
Why you want to balance a faith with reasoning which can’t survive the knowledge? Do you think that one can’t develop a meaning in life without faith(religion).
Why you think that the life of an atheist is meaningless?
There are societies in the world where atheists are over 80%(at maximum), veitnam and sweden, They are not religious so do we assume that they are living meaningless life?
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Words, you never do this.
speak up :>
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Didn’t exactly got what you mean, I think i had said what i wanted to say. Whats on your mind that you think i had to say, and i didn’t said.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Actually its not about my life that i'm seeing things that way, I have developed my own sense of meaning of life and ways to be happy in life. I don't need to imagine a good God looking at me all the time caring about me. Now the world how it is, it is. There is "Pain", its a phenomena we can't ignore either we feel good or bad, "Death" is another phenomena, "Sufferings" are there, there are many bad things, many bad accidents, you may remember the recent EarthQuake which killed thousands of religious people brutally. I mean what sort of God (Concept) is this? Its too naive to imagine a deity as religion defines it, while regularly observing a totally contrast world around us.
Balance between faith and practical reasoning?
What do you mean by balance here?
Why you want to balance a faith with reasoning which can't survive the knowledge? Do you think that one can't develop a meaning in life without faith(religion).
Why you think that the life of an atheist is meaningless?
There are societies in the world where atheists are over 80%(at maximum), veitnam and sweden, They are not religious so do we assume that they are living meaningless life?
words i never said that aetheists are not capable fo developing apurpose or meaning in life. i have never imposed religion on ppl, i think we all do what we think is best in this world..and we all have different ways of thinking, so i can nt ask u to have faith or follow what i think is right in this world, b/c we are all such different ppl, i think we all are entitled to our opinions.
secondly faith is such a personal choice! how can anyone convince another to have faith in anything. I think its even more personal then the most personal of things...whichis emotion, b/c though ppl can make us feel happy or angry etc, no one can make us have faith!
so u can choose to be whatever u want in terms of faith, i am not asking u to be blind. But u can not expect me to be blind to what u are saying either. u are a bit os a pessimist. I try to see the silverlining in everything, i don not expect other too...but i see that u see the world as a world filled with pain...and i do not...i see it as a just place.
i am not saying u are not entitled to that opinion, i am just trying to understand why u have that opinion
i see your point, this world is filled will hunger, poverty, destiture, corruption, disasters, illness, death, etc...but yet while we both live on this planet, i think its a just humane wonderful world, that human beings are ultimately good, and that god/ nature/ this planet...has a just way about it! u dont agree u think this planet isfilled with sadness and pain, so i am u are right making assumptions, but only in an attempt to figure out why...the differing opinions, not just b/t me and u....i have a friend who thinks this way too :D i am just tring to understand
but i need to re-read my comment
Re: Belief in Existentialism
oh okay i see what i did
i wrote a response to you and it was meant to be a question, thought it doesnt have a question mark after it. after my 2 sentence reply i went off into a long response which was all my opinion!!! it was late nite and as i acknoledged my brain was not at its best then....
but i wasnt imposing only attemtping to figure out! hence the perhaps..and the "i thinkks" all over the place.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
Haha. Yep I got down on my knees a few times for it to work alright. Didn't help though. Apparently my code was not sophisticated enough to respond to duaein. Thus the question remains..
Re: Belief in Existentialism
The last few questions in my post, about the meaning of life for the atheist, where directed at Dushwari, since i quoted her before.
Now regarding your rest of the post, I find two main points in it.
-
Why I see life so negatively ?
-
Matter of “Imposing our Faith” on others…
Regarding 1, you said that you want to understand why people feel that way about life, But incase of me, I think what you do wrong is that you try to find in me the reason of my opinions on “pain”, rather then the thing itself, i.e. pain and all other negative things.
If you had read some philosophy of religion, you might be aware of “Problem of Evil”(as they call) It says in very simple words, that if God is good then how can we justify the existence of Evil. And its the a major argument against the God of Islam/Christianity etc(other religions which have mercifull version of God), So its not something unique to me or few other people. Its a major argument which isn’t entertained by philosophers from religion. The best response on this is quite older, it was i think thomas augustine (pardon me for spellings), He said that, there isn’t any Evil in short, Actually its the absence of goodness, some people still uitilize this argument. Its just the matter of bad use of concepts, because, we call “Evil” as “Evil” because its effect is “Evil”, now if absence of “Good” has exactly the same effect as “Evil” so its the Evil.
As an atheist, i see life as it is, there are good and bad things, we have to catch the happiness out of them, but as said earlier it doesn’t fits with “Good” God of religion. If you think that one can interpret things better then lets take my reply to the post of aly-sam on 14th, in which s/he given an example of a boy, and i raised few questions on it, example is specifically favorable one for your interpretation, So let see if we can understand it that way(with good interpretation of life), because if we can’t do this to a favorable example the odd ones would really be difficult to show that way.
Now on 2, I think one can convince other to have faith. I’m not saying that the decision would not be taken by the person himself, actually when he will take the decision it would be his decision, but we do take such decisions in life which we can’t even imagine to take, when we imagine ourselves sometimes back.
Let me give you an example from the religion, what a prophet does to people didn’t he convinces them to have faith in something else, offcourse when they take decision its their own, but there isn’t any problem in discussing.
By the way i didn’t got any feeling that you are imposing anything on me.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
As far as I know, man is completely responsible for his own actions and decisions… This is the Islamic point of view I suppose… If we are to accpet Islam, then it seems logical that if our actions and decisions werent of our own volition, God could not punish those who transgress or commit some kind of evil, as stated in the koran, because evils wouldnt be of our fault, but due to our nature, which god himslef or essence ordained for us.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
LOL...anyways...all duaein are not answered...at least not at the time you want....the fact remains...you did something from within yourself...not using your intellect ... and you cannot explain it...thats communication with god/creator/nature/the force whatever you choose to call it.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
But you know, One can't explain even a single event of the existence of Pain, If one assumes the kind of Absolutely Powerfull, Knowledge-full and Mercifull God. Now lets take the example of the same boy you considered, if that boy developed with the time wrong habits, Did He really deserves the Pain, He gets when accident Happens? Please consider this question seriously. Was his developing bad habits a Sin, for which He deserved Punishment? Was he in total control to choose not to develope bad habits? And if we assume that he was(which i don't think he was), still is it a kind of action which made pain a right kind of thing to be done to him, How can one defend this?
.
I have so many words for you ...words:)
but at this time i am so busy so will tackle aboe point with one real live example.
my dad is mashallah very health conscious. One day 3 yrs ago he suffered heart attack. We were all shocked. how he eats well excercises regulary...what hope is there for the rest of us if he has heart problem. anyway going for check up and booked in for bypass we found out alhamdullilah....that he had several blockages and the attack actually cleared up the blocked arteries! and did not have to do the bypass. if he did not experience that pain he would have continued getting more and heavier blocks and i dont even want to think about what could have happened. that was a warning he had to be even more cautious and take medication...which we woud never have known.
re: the boy who experienced pain...i feel that now when he grows up and is given rules on how to drive his car...he may abide by them....thus helping to prevent accidents.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
That’s the thing, What makes certain duaein count? If we are going the techie way, what would be the programming equivalent? My computer code (that often blows up) was just a subprogram of this ultimate program, right? If you zoom out a bit, what kind of decision making models do you think He uses that increases the likelihood of a certain event (here, my program blowing up 
) occuring based on the quality of your duaein? Isn’t that interfering with the procedings? Basically how does the feedback control mechanism work when you , as you put it, communicate with God? I am just curious as to how you/farwah.raza or anyone else that endorses this analogy, would address this issue from a purely/semi (however you want to) logical point of view.
Re: Belief in Existentialism
aww..geek 
shucks! u are soo cute! stop …no really …go on! u are making me blush!
but anyway…u must know the movie matrix! honestly…i think beyond being a pop tart movie…it has so many hidden meanings! i mean dont get me wrong! i am absolutely no computer geek, i have gobe through enough laptops and only the poor dear ppl at Dell and my school computer help ppl know the torture that is me trying to understand anything computer related… i was merely trying to explain what i meant through an anology so that ppl could visulaize what i meant! but still…
and as for duaen..! are u kidding… yea i have totally thought about it! but this bit i am little unsure of…its really specially out there..this theory of mine!
so i think duaen maybe a computer language..a code perhaps that allows things to change…u see.. i mean what do we really know…maybe saying things a certain way is actually like entering a code of sorts…(this would explain why arabic is the chosen language, given its specificaltion with the accents everywhere thus forcing everyone to prounounce a certain word a certain way) and if the program accepts the input then the result you want will be generated..does that make sense to your geek self 
but actually beyond that…beyond hte computer analogy…i think duan much like namaz are actually good for us…All-h does not need our duas! or our namaz..he is not dependant on that…namaz is for us like i said, it builds discipline, concentration/focus, relieves the stress on your back, makes u have faith in a bieng that knows and controls all and leave all things in this beings hands, thus relieving your mind of stress as well! All those things, and so many more i bet, namaz does for us! similarly i think dua is really for us too. if u read some of them in english…they really give u faith in a being beyond yourself! i think if you have faith in all-h and u can confidently say he is all powerful merciful and controls all in my life..i submit to him..then u can feel confident that u dont need to kow-tow (bow) to anyone but him, then u can feel safe that your future whatever it maybe is controlled by him not by forces on this planet, and thus u can be proud, you can be confident (and i think that makes u different, it put you in a different state of mind, which makes u suddenly so much more better able to be successful, and apealing to ppl) and thus ultimately either be sucessful in what u are doing or be strong enough to not care!
see when i make dua…and i really truly submit its very relaxing…i submit completely to god…i think…okay well i will deal with whatever comes my way..no matter what! and instead of thinking i want this and that and feeling awful about not getting what i want and being negative…i just htink okay lord this is what u have sent my way… i will deal with it..and not let it make me evil! if i remain good - i win u see!
ultimately happiness is about self-control the rest is just a mirage to confuse us! so u have this person in prison who has no worldly possessions and no power..but can control himself to be a good person, and can control his desires and accept his surroundings! and this person does his prayers and makes dua all the time. and then u have ppl who want to nad do control the world…like some women from beverly hills or something…who needs prozac to watch the soap operas!