Bargaining or begging...

Lifestyle Relationships
1

With no offense to anyone, at times specially among desis (including some of my own relatives), I feel that while bargaining with a shopkeeper some of them don’t realize that they are not talking to a close relative or mehram. The politely using (insisting) of the terms like “please” and “But you had promised that my clothes would be ready on this date” in a soft voice and having a long conversation with a person whom they would totally ignore in daily life (as part of their belief to not chat and smile frankly with a non-mehram) gives an impression of hypocrite to non-Muslims.

Also letting a non-mehram shopkeeper help them wear bangles or shoes is not understandable, because if they come across the same shopkeepers in daily life they would not even like to look at them (as part of their belief) let alone allowing them to talk and touch.

The worst part is when the spouse is watching it and doesn’t feel offended by something which is only the spouse’s personal right to do in terms of interaction, and he would have objected such acts if it were done on some other occasion.

p.s. The intention is not to criticize anyone, but to realize unintentional double standards that exist in people like me. It would be kind of people to suggest ways in which we are able to decrease these mistakes from our daily lives (to the extent humanly possible) and interact with people in daily life while trying our best to not violate our own belief system “to the extent possible”.

2

Re: Bargaining or begging...

I don't need a man to help me put on my shoes or my churiyan!

count till 25 before
3

Re: Bargaining or begging...

^lol u r funny Sara
i hav seen in pak gals do let shopkeepers do that n the way some gals giv measurements at a tailors shop.very stupid.
Submission bhai the shopkeepers in pak tend to do that a lot but if u tell them nicely that u'll do it urself they stand back so its all upto individuals

4

^ What I don't understand is why do the tailors need to take initiative in taking measurements of a woman. I am sure they themselves would never allow their own daughters, wife or sister give measurements to any male tailor.

And a typical trend I have come to know from my wife and sister that in some places in Pakistan, tailors keep delaying the date of completion of clothes at least 4-5 times, due to which a poor woman has to come to them again and again while she might not be in a position to everytime bring along with them a mehram. If there is no other tailor shop near by and some poor people might not be able to afford to go to other far and expensive shops, that doesn't mean they should not make their clothes on time, and hear pleading sentences as " Please, I need these clothes urgently because I have to attend a wedding", "Dekhain, aap hamesha kehtey hain ke kaprey time per milengey per hamesha dair kartey hain....etc...."

During this conversation the tailor and his students (who leave their work for this opportunity) get enough time to keep staring at her from head to toe and observe her correcting her dupatta from time to time. Amazingly some woman are innocent enough to accept the offer of the shopkeeper to sit in the shop and wait for the completion of the clothes. The shopkeeper's eyes would definitely burn with honor and anger if his wife, sister or daughter is made to wait in one room in between men.

Even more amazingly stupid people like me are easily convinced by the devil that those shopkeepers are not humans, they are machines with no feelings and this is part of their job, which they have become used to with time.

5

Re: Bargaining or begging...

STP - My brother I normally find your posts very inspirational, but sometimes you guys stretch is a bit too far. I am surprised that you decided to start your discussion on interaction with na-mehrams with shopkeepers! A majority of the women work in offices, they have to interact with scores of na-mehrams everyday. They work in every field including marketing and relationship management and have to extensively interact with people.

Bargaining with shopkeepers doesnt even count, if you go by comparison. And a lot of the staying-home women have to go out and shop, and I believe that interaction with shopkeepers in not avoidable. You can not pin point a person to be a sleazeball, unless you lock a woman in the closet she will always be at a risk. You do have some interesting observations very specifically about tailors. They definitely are not machines, but they are running a business and do not afford to act like sleazy buttheads otherwise the word goes around and they will have to wind-up. It is a fact that the tailoring, jewellery, fashion and other such trades primarily catering to women are run by men. Exceptions aside, they treat them with utmost respect and I have hardly ever heard about any bad incident related to the professions you have pointed out.

Perhaps you need to relax and focus on the more important matters, something more significant than a tailor's *nikkay *staring at a customer. Generally, unless a woman acts unappropriately, they are treated by these folks with respect. Delays happen in the normal course of business and I believe it would be unfair to associate them with the tailors' desire to make the woman visit them frequently.

6

^ You are right brother. Perhaps I got a bit too emotional after my recent visit to Pakistan. A few times I had to accompany ladies of my family but what was happening in those shops makes it very difficult for anyone to control his/her blood from boiling. To be honest, I am not exaggerating about how people like me have become insensitive (used to) of crossing of "limits" of their own beliefs when it comes to such interactions but you are right that we need to calm down and think about it with a cool mind and with wisdom that how can we implement the principles of our prophet (saw) in our life in a true sense and also not disassociate ourselves from the society.

JazakAllah khair for your reply.

May Allah (Swt) bless us towards the right path.

Arduino: Open-source prototyping platform
7

Well , I dont think its only with the shopkeepers in pakistan , any desi dukaanwala found anywhere in the world , tries the same tactics ....

...although they are only doing it to enhance their client base and trying to give the client the "apna pan " so the client feels comfortable and becomes a regular at the shop..... however I do agree with Submission to peace ... they do go overboard and for that we women are to be held responsible , we let them go this far ..

I used to have a tailor , he would let the woman know what measurements he needed , gave her the tape measure and would ask her to measure herself in the changing room and let him know ... He was a great tailor and respected women's privacy.

Women in Pakistan have made it a habit to interact openly with shopkeepers , I even get shocked when i see them buying clothes ... going to the extent of asking the shop wala, bhai yeh kapra ham par kaisa lag raha hai ! horrible , I tell you !

8

About working women and their interaction with clients etc ...

My mother is a doctor and worked alongside men all her life , when I started my career , she told me one thing clearly , which i remember till date ..

she said , its very easy for a woman to sound enticing and look beautiful and your client and your employer will both have lots to win , but you will lose your respect ... therefore learn to remain stern and extremely business like when at work and in front of clients , remain polite but do not look or speak invitingly... you must learn the difference between the two.

Years later, I have reached a senior management role and have gone through the ups and downs of interaction ... alot of desi girls used to wear deep neck clothes, skirts, go out with the clients/bosses for unnecessary drinks or dinner, would become overly friendly with them and found it an easy route to get success , they copied the west ...

....I have reached success as well , and remain proud of the fact that even my clients /bosses give me the protocol of utmost respect when around me ... only because I learnt being polite yet remaining far away from being enticing and inviting ....

I once went to a client meeting along with my boss... just towards the end of the meeting, the client looked at me and said, well I must compliment you , you look beautiful and its going to be a pleasure dealing with you... just this one sentence put me on fire and i immediately pulled my hand back from the handshake and told him politely, it will be a colleague he will now be dealing with and gave him a cold look. My boss totally was going to blow up with anger thinking this was very unnecessary what i did and If we lost the deal it would be because of me.

Two days later, I found a little apology card on my desk. It was from the client saying he apologizes for offending me. I called him back and told him I accepted his apology .. he is now our client since 8 years ! Everytime I walk into his office, he deals with me with utmost respect ....

Its down to us muslim women how we choose to be treated .

9

Re: Bargaining or begging…

CB - You have a commendable approach towards these issues :k: I might not completely agree with your reaction (which I believe was an over-reaction) to that compliment, but I agree with the most of what you have said.

10

Yeah , but I feel Jaanwar , if a person generally says hey you look good … its understandable perhaps by a close friend …

but imagine you standing with your wife and someone compliments her you look beautiful please visit us often ! how would you feel ?

hence my reaction , I dont want people to cross that personal line with me… they can say you look great today and i will say thank you . but beyond that , a stranger, be it a dukanwala , client, boss doesnt have any rights to make comments and if they do I have the right to politely tell them I do not see this as a compliment.

I feel women should learn to put their foot down when it comes to how much attention to invite from whome. I am doing business with my business skills not my appearance , hence the person should have commended my business skills not my appearance ..

you know what i mean… ? that client told me once ,he is always very careful with his comments with asian working women since that incident with me , so as he doesnt offend them :slight_smile:

Indian rape victims' male friend
11

Best advise a mother can ever give!

That's the way I think too.

12

THat really shows a strong character. It's hard to act the way you do but it brings better results. Asian women should be thankful to you (if some of htem are not wanting to kill u :D)

13

Re: Bargaining or begging...

Then again--and dont take this personally please--but is it not possible for a woman to be nice/sweet/dress a certain way and STILL have proper business skills? I know (or well i've HEARD) in the corporate world ur taken more seroiusly if u dress conservatively..but ur more popular if u dress erm not so conservatively. I guess this is veering off into a different direction, more of careers, but still...just a thought =p

count till 25 before
count till 25 before
14

Re: Bargaining or begging...

^ I think it is possible Sara516 but there is a fine line.

In the end professionlism matters whether it's the way you dress, talk and engage with your collegues and your clients.

Depends if you want to be popular or successful at your office :) Most coporate offices have a dress code.

15

I remember once at work Colleagues and I had a similar discussion and the end result was as acknowledged by them ( all gora’s and gori’s ) : the way we dress says alot about how we want to be treated and our intentions .

I too am not conservative in my dressing, I wear suits and shirts but just that I try to avoid figure hugging dresses and low neck tops and sleaveless tops etc ..

My colleague ( a gori ) clearly accepts she likes the “effect” she has on clients , and hence she likes to dress up accordingly , wears nice sexy tops and skirts that do show the sensual side of a woman yet not looking vulgar … and so she gets the attention she wants and likes.

infact she was telling me once if i need similar attention I should learn to dress differently , I politely turned down her offer .. :omg:

16

Sara, you hit me on the hurting nerve :omg: .. recently we had two muslim desi british girls join our office and they thought I gave the entire office a very wrong concept of a muslim woman … ! :omg:

17

u r getting a lil carried away here.i've been to this situation several times.the thing that u don't get orders on time involve many factors...our ppl don't keep up to schedules everyone is almost always late so its a general paki bemari.then there r always load shedding,sumetimes karigar get sick.also the tailors always take more orders than they can fulfil in a certain time so these r the main reasons.next they make u sit in shop is not really true u can go n run some other errands n come back also u can call b4 dropping.u can sent a male to pick clothes.n even if u sit there as a lady i never saw anyone staring at me.they all r so busy almost like human machines.yes jo aurtain thumuk thumuk ker baitain kerti hain then they treat them likewise n jo reserve n to the point act keray they treat them same way.

18

OK CB wat if a person muslim or non-muslim(mostly goras in this case) brings his hand forward for a handshake with u wats the best way to avoid that without being rude?
i had two incidents…my husbands relatives always do handshake n hug their female relatives.when i went to pak they tried to handshake with me.i said"i don’t like to"they got offended n said"we r like brothers"i said but still its not same n i feel uncomfortable" they don’t do it with me now but they do find me rude.i thought as a muslim they should hav some sense n my husband would hav objected to this himself
Next my sons gora teacher met us n after meeting did the customary handshake with me n my husband both.i didn’t refuse.this time he a non-muslim said "i thought muslim ladies r not allowed to shake hand with men"n i was really embarassed.

Timepass-Jan 2013
19

Re: Bargaining or begging...

^if someone is lending their hands forward for a handshake - WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL? It's not like they want to FEEL you up!

If YOU make a deal out of it - then it becomes obvious to the unconscious mind.

Seriously, I don't think handshake is a big deal until YOU MAKE IT OUT TO BE.

(Personally, I do the hand shake ONLY if the person first offers a handshake. There is NO WAY you should turn that down. Seriously - GOD WON'T BE ANGRY and throw you in hell.)

20

Re: Bargaining or begging...

NJ u didn't read my post clearly that a muslim objected y i don't shake hands while a non-muslim objected y did i shake it when my religion doesn't allow me.

Ok wat if its a big deal to me n i don't wanna do it then how to turn it down nicely is my question