Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

[kakaballi]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Monk

…How every if christian monks male/female, rabais and such wanted to come I don’t see any problem.
Rasoolallah(saw) him self invited and hosted Christian in masjid-nabwi. …

Then is this law (forbidding non-Muslims) is in direct contravention with this practice?

[kchughtai]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@psyah

Peace kchughtai

Other than this the pilgrims have a greater right to the place. Over crowding is an issue and it is within their right to ban non-Muslims from the area. Whether people will lie to get in - yes that is a risk … similarly people are asked to swear on oath in a court of law, it won’t make the liar stop lying - but that does not mean you do away with the oath - or are you advocating that too?

my point is that the applied restriction doesn’t serve the stated purpose. over-crowding is a separate issue. I don’t think any non-muslim will even dream of visiting the city during hajj days as there are already so many people that every now and then precious lives are lost due to stampedes etc..

[psyah]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

I don’t understand why it is a big issue to ban non-Muslims from Makkah.

Is this practice against Islam is that the reason why it is being contested?

[Med911]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@psyah

I don’t understand why it is a big issue to ban non-Muslims from Makkah.

Is this practice against Islam is that the reason why it is being contested?

Because it equates to discrimination… Islam is an inclusive faith, yet such policies are clearly not.

[Monk]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@kakaballi

Then is this law (forbidding non-Muslims) is in direct contravention with this practice?

Like I said, to me I looks like keeping things simple.

Now when few of Christians(monks) dress appropriately and rest of the Christians dress totally opposite to them. They can be both right in only one sense “wear what pleases you”
Other wise one of them is wrong.
Now we too believe “wear what pleases you” can go out of control.

So now we have muslims + Christian(monks) on one side, rest of the Christian on the other side.

So you see its not us who made things complicated.

[Monk]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@X2

I mean men xxxxx women at Makkah is not something that’s acceptable behavior for ‘Muslim kind’ but that argument that Saudis are still being Saudis is not used to keep the horndog Saudi men out.

Well some men do bad things in makkah. That does not mean if I ever go there, some women can shove their nakedness on my face.
No!!
Also my point only is, not allowing non muslims keeps things simple.
I have no idea even what I am saying could be against principle of islam.
Just my humble opinion.
For example invite sister vassa to makkah, masjaid nabwi etc… I have no problem.

[psyah]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Med911

Because it equates to discrimination… Islam is an inclusive faith, yet such policies are clearly not.

You didn’t answer my question. Where in Islam does it specifically forbid us from disallowing non-Muslims into the haram. As far as preventing them from entering there are some subjective references - but can you even provide an indicative reference as to that act being forbidden? And if you cannot then let the government of Saudi do as it wishes.

I think the idea that “Islam is an inclusive religion” is a worthwhile topic in itself. When you say “Islam is inclusive” what limits do you draw on this inclusiveness?

[Med911]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@psyah

You didn’t answer my question. Where in Islam does it specifically forbid us from disallowing non-Muslims into the haram. As far as preventing them from entering there are some subjective references - but can you even provide an indicative reference as to that act being forbidden? And if you cannot then let the government of Saudi do as it wishes.

I think the idea that “Islam is an inclusive religion” is a worthwhile topic in itself. When you say “Islam is inclusive” what limits do you draw on this inclusiveness?

I don’t know… I don’t have the time to do some lengthy research here. I would someone as learned as u would help us in that regard.
The Saudis are safe from me, as I lack a standing army ready to do my bidding. But why should they be the policy makers on matters of faith? What glories have we seen under their stewardship that we should honor them with such a dignity?

The rest later

[psyah]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Med911

I don’t know… I don’t have the time to do some lengthy research here. I would someone as learned as u would help us in that regard.
The Saudis are safe from me, as I lack a standing army ready to do my bidding. But why should they be the policy makers on matters of faith? What glories have we seen under their stewardship that we should honor them with such a dignity?

The rest later

I don’t agree with Saudi on some issues, but I agree with them on this one. Already you will find it hard to get anywhere near a majority in your favour - trust me. Perhaps then you should rethink what you have in mind really is not coming from a sense of Islamic rectification, but a misunderstanding of Islamic inclusiveness. Perhaps?

Here is a good example of Islamic EX-clusiveness

Surah Al-Kafirun - The Noble Qur’''an - ??? ???

Say, “O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.”

[X2]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Monk

Well some men do bad things in makkah. That does not mean if I ever go there, some women can shove their nakedness on my face.
No!!
Also my point only is, not allowing non muslims keeps things simple.
I have no idea even what I am saying could be against principle of islam.
Just my humble opinion.
For example invite sister vassa to makkah, masjaid nabwi etc… I have no problem.

This is not about your pakeeza self being violated by anyone shoving anything in your face or another location.

The point that I was main was that if the concern is that some visitors will show up in inappropriate attire and that is why we should not allow any visitors, then using the same concern we should not be allowing saudi men, because some of them go groping in crowded areas even in masjid al haram.

Some people use Hajj and Umra trips for smuggling, some have used hajj and umrah trips to try and illegally stay. Also anyone who has been for Tawaf has seen the people who form circles with women and kids in the middle and really run during tawaf pushing and shoving everyone. Generally they are from a handful of countries. does not mean we ban the country. It would be simple though.

if we are going to make a religious argument that its simply not allowed, we can switch to that. But if there are these sort of logistical concerns, then they can be solved if there is a will to do so e.g. the loophole of people going to hajj and staying was really tightened since the 80s, so abuse of that decreased. just one example of addressing an known issue by appropriate regulations, procedures and enforcement, rather than have a simple solution of just banning rafeeqs and miskins from coming for Hajj and Umrah.

[X2]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Ibn_Sadique

X2 Your knowledge and observational skills are impressively dazzling! I hope next time you read with your eyes open wide!

I Appreciate your acknowledgment of my superior knowledge and observation skills..

@Ibn_Sadique

X2 I hope next time you read with your eyes open wide!

I do each time, so lets do a demo of that..

@Ibn_Sadique

I was just responding to brother kchughtai – that his uncle was allowed to pray in a church.

You fixed nothing as nothing was broken. There was no argument – you just jumped in

its a discussion forum, I added to the discussion. I simply added that his uncle would have been able to visit…

@Ibn_Sadique

Allowing to someone to visit Vatican and letting him/her to pray in it are two different issues.

Indeed they are…and from the start my point was about a ‘visit’ .. looks like someone did need to read with eyes open.

Lets see my original post

@X2

but he was able to visit…

see the word visit…open your eyes a little..does it say pray? ..no? ..good.
repeat after me ‘visit’

@Ibn_Sadique

^ the Holy of Holies – The Vatican???

Or just any church?

Lets see your response, you don’t clarify you are talking about praying.
let me open my eyes more…ummmm no. don’t see the word pray.

so what was my response

@X2

I meant that he would be able to visit the Vatican.
I have on several occasions. I studied in Rome and visited the Vatican fairly frequently since it was just a small detour on my walk from campus to my flat.

oh yes, I explained that visiting vatican is fine. again repeat after me ‘visit’
open your eyes just a little bit so that word can get in there…does it say pray
let me see v.i.s.i.t … hmm still spells visit.

your post after that still did not make any reference to praying, lets see what you said

@Ibn_Sadique

Well then the Christians don’t have any textual command from ‘On High’ to restrict non-Christians to visit the Vatican. If they had so, then the Vatican would have been out of bounds for non-Catholics.

Whereas Muslims have ‘textual command’ by highest authority to restrict the entry of non-Muslims to the Haram area of Makkah Al Mukarramah. No big Deal!

to which I responded that I was taking about non catholics being allowed to go to vatican and correcting some gap in knowledge.

@X2

I was answering to your point about whether someone who is not christian will be allowed at the Vatican. You were incorrect/not knowledgeable and I fixed that. Now that we know that in fact non catholics can go to vatican, we can close that argument off. No Big Deal!

Cheers

Had you said 3 posts ago that you knew non muslims can visit vatican, that would have been helpful to us all, but you ended with exclamation of 'no big deal!" .. not sure if there was a place for that but sure..

and now since we are talking about superior knowledge and observation skills…this little nugget may have escaped your notice about praying at Vatican. I know praying was not the topic of our discussion but visit, but since you are now talking about prayers..there is a first..

Vatican makes history: Pope allows Islamic prayers, Koran readings - Washington Times

Cheers

[Med911]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@psyah

I don’t agree with Saudi on some issues, but I agree with them on this one. Already you will find it hard to get anywhere near a majority in your favour - trust me. Perhaps then you should rethink what you have in mind really is not coming from a sense of Islamic rectification, but a misunderstanding of Islamic inclusiveness. Perhaps?

Here is a good example of Islamic EX-clusiveness

Surah Al-Kafirun - The Noble Qur’''an - ??? ???

Say, “O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.”

Maybe… I doubt many people would agree with me on this, but popularity of a belief doesn’t necessarily equal right…

That passage doesnt necessarily have to be interpreted as “you cant come to my place of worship and i wont enter yours.” We can still visit a church or a temple, without trying to convert anyone or being converted ourselves.

inclusiveness seems to be a big subject, but in simple terms, would mean allowing Non Muslims to witness the Hajj, even if they aren’t taking part in it. Or if not then at least be allowed to enter at off peak times. There are multiple ways of managing Non-muslim groups who would like to visit. I understand there are some logistics to work out, but there is no reason you cant work things out…

[Monk]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@X2

This is not about your pakeeza self being violated by anyone shoving anything in your face or another location.

The point that I was main was that if the concern is that some visitors will show up in inappropriate attire and that is why we should not allow any visitors, then using the same concern we should not be allowing saudi men, because some of them go groping in crowded areas even in masjid al haram.

Some people use Hajj and Umra trips for smuggling, some have used hajj and umrah trips to try and illegally stay. Also anyone who has been for Tawaf has seen the people who form circles with women and kids in the middle and really run during tawaf pushing and shoving everyone. Generally they are from a handful of countries. does not mean we ban the country. It would be simple though.

if we are going to make a religious argument that its simply not allowed, we can switch to that. But if there are these sort of logistical concerns, then they can be solved if there is a will to do so e.g. the loophole of people going to hajj and staying was really tightened since the 80s, so abuse of that decreased. just one example of addressing an known issue by appropriate regulations, procedures and enforcement, rather than have a simple solution of just banning rafeeqs and miskins from coming for Hajj and Umrah.

You have many point for which have nothing to oppose.
Also seem like you have seen thing more closely.

My opinion is only as deep as my wish to have coffee in a certain way.
Nothing more.

Also cuba disallowed amreekans kept its life simple.
City I live in do not allow nightclubs, keep its like simple.

[X2]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Monk

You have many point for which have nothing to oppose.
Also seem like you have seen thing more closely.

My opinion is only as deep as my wish to have coffee in a certain way.
Nothing more.

Also cuba disallowed amreekans kept its life simple.
City I live in do not allow nightclubs, keep its like simple.

I know bro, we are just exchanging views and opinions, we don’t have to agree, its good to learn different POVs.
It has been many years but i used to live in KSA and had the opportunity to go for Umrah and Hajj. the smuggling and immigration fraud stuff was beginning to emerge then, increased later and then was curtailed.

The running in tawaf thing or ‘rajam’ as its called, can be done, but the african hujjaj, especially from Sudan and Nigeria run in this battle formation circle that just pushes people out of the way and causes a lot of disruption.

anyways, different topic, It has been a long time since i went, have to make a trip soon.

[Balthier]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

Using language such as someone else being filthy and dirty, in religious or whatever sense, is only going to add to muslims own grief, with people becoming increasingly skeptic of muslims and their religion. Problem is, most here will not comprehend something as simple, and will vehemently defend their position, despite it really being indefensible.

Too many muslims are contributing to the growing Skepticism against muslims and Islam, but will never do any serious self-reflection, to realise how they are themselves adding to their own grief.

The world is more globalized than ever, almost everything is transparent, your choice how you want others to perceive you and your belief.

[Theorist]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

I wanted to go to Jerusalem to see the historical places and I was told Pakistani born are not allowed to visit there. I also want to go to Mecca someday just to see what it’s like but I am an apostate. I guess I will just go join the Atheist club of Colorado. At least, I will get weed and be accepted.

P.S. I don’t smoke but I will sell it to religious folks here who do. lolol

[Med911]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Balthier

Using language such as someone else being filthy and dirty, in religious or whatever sense, is only going to add to muslims own grief, with people becoming increasingly skeptic of muslims and their religion. Problem is, most here will not comprehend something as simple, and will vehemently defend their position, despite it really being indefensible.

Too many muslims are contributing to the growing Skepticism against muslims and Islam, but will never do any serious self-reflection, to realise how they are themselves adding to their own grief.

The world is more globalized than ever, almost everything is transparent, your choice how you want others to perceive you and your belief.

Thats true… I mean how can you claim to be the inheritors divine truth while denigrating everyone else by calling them unclean, filthy or dirty.!!! How senseless is that? Then they have the audacity to try an convince those dirty filthy people to join the pure ones by converting! I mean does no have a sense of propriety left? This is basic stuff.

Its really downright stupid on every level.

[Med911]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Theorist

I wanted to go to Jerusalem to see the historical places and I was told Pakistani born are not allowed to visit there. I also want to go to Mecca someday just to see what it’s like but I am an apostate. I guess I will just go join the Atheist club of Colorado. At least, I will get weed and be accepted.

P.S. I don’t smoke but I will sell it to religious folks here who do. lolol

As an “apostate” atheist you shouldn’t have any qualms about lying to the Saudis about your religious credentials.. I mean god isnt about to strike you down either way. Because if he doesnt exist, then it irrelevant.. And if he does then he will be happy that you went and performed hajj.

[TLK]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

It’s not God, but Saudis who are ready to chop your head off if they learn that you are an apostate , so let God know, but hide it from the Saudis

[Theorist]

Re: Banning Non Muslims in Makkah

@Med911

As an “apostate” atheist you shouldn’t have any qualms about lying to the Saudis about your religious credentials.. I mean god isnt about to strike you down either way. Because if he doesnt exist, then it irrelevant.. And if he does then he will be happy that you went and performed hajj.

My point isn’t that I am an atheist, I am actually not. I make no claims on God’s existence. My point is that atheist crowd is more likely to accept me than the religious ones and it’s amazing how religious people like to think of themselves as tolerant and so accepting yet calling everybody else “impure”.

We can’t do anything but LOL.