Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Another similarity between the Bihais and Ahmadis is that they both CONFIRMED the prophethood of founders of other faiths, like Zoroaster, Raam, Budh, etc.
Muslims say they may or may not have been prophets, but these two new religions actually confirmed it, and called them prophets.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Lajjo, I thought we had talked about miracles and the Ahmadiyya interpretation of it a few times around. But if you insist, here what it is in a nut shell again:
The main understanding of Miracle in most religions including Sunnis, Hindus and Budhists is that something extra ordinary outside the realm of physical laws happened and if a miracle can be explained through science, then it is not a miracle anymore. Ahmadis do not define miracle in that sense.
Usually the explanation given for miracles is that Allah can do what He so wishes and so He can make people walk on water, for example. Which is true but it is also the case that He happens to be perfect law maker, which means that if He made these laws of nature by which this physical world is governed He must have made 'em perfect, as He claimed in Quran. So He can perform all the miracles within those laws without having to break any of them. If He didn't then He can be considered to be Qadar on doing things but His laws aren't perfect. So, Ahmadiyya belief is that all miracles are within the governed laws of Allah (SWT) as when he made these heavens and earth, he made them perfect.In othe r words, Ahmadiyya belief is that any miracle claimed should be taken as true as long as it doesn't contradict Quran and if a good scientific explanation can be given it should be presented, otherwise it must be one of the laws we haven't discovered yet.
This is not to say that Allah is not Qadar at breaking His laws.
Once a companion of Mirza Sahib (as) argued by interpreting the miracle of fire turning into flower for Hazrat Ibrahim (as) as that a great thunder storm came & put out the fire and then insisted that it must be the case at which Mirza Sahib (as) expressed great regret and cautioned to not make up a theory and consider it the absolute truth. Though he didn't reject his theory as false, he only made the point that Allah knows all.
That being said, did you know that there are miracles of Mirza Sahib (as), his followers and his followers followers that cannot be explained through science? For example, during the month of Ramadan Mirza Sahib (as) was resting in the afternoon and a person named Maulvi Abdullah Sinauri Sahib was sitting beside him when he saw that Mirza Sahib trembled and then some red dots appeared on Mirza Sahib's ankle and his shirt. He got worried that Mirza Sahib (as) is bleeding but when he touched those spots it turned out to be red ink. By this Mirza Sahib (as) woke up and when Sinauri Sahib pointed out the red dots, Mirza Sahib explained that he saw a vision where he is presenting one of his papers to Allah (SWT) and Allah shook his pen & marked acceptance and those dots are from His pen. Abudlah Sanuri Sahib immediately requested that he be given that shirt to which Hazrat Promised Messiah (as) agreed only if the shirt be buried with him in his grave. This was because Hazrat Sahib (as) was afraid that in later days people might start worshiping the shirt. Now no Ahmadi can explain to you the scientific reasoning behind it while we all believe in that miracle. Yet our belief in the verses of Quran that Allah made this universe perfect leads us to believe that there must be an explanation.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Ahmedjee: I read in one of Mirza Sahib writtings about an angel named Tecchi Tecchi. He came in his vision and showed him **peppermint. **What I remember reading is that Mirza Sahib was not feeling well and it (peppermint) was actually a divine prescription for him.
I read all that long time ago. Can you confirm which book was it in?
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
This thread is a comparative study of two most recent progressive religions.
Every person is entitled to believe what he/she likes, One can not ask why do you believe this, it is against the spirit of religion.
I believe in religion forum we should try to learn more about different religions in positive manner. Thanks
FrozenFire and Ahmadjee :
Re: Founder being rich and belonged to influential families
Mr. Bahaullah I read in the BBC's website
quote-
Baha'u'lláh
Baha'u'lláh, which means the Glory of God in Arabic, *was born Mirza Husayn Ali in 1817 into one of Persia's most noble and privileged families. *
--unquote
As for followers, I have not met any but looking at their extraordinary huge and beautiful buildings, it appear that they are quite rich.
Please see the attached picture of Bahai tower in New Dehli, India. It is rare to see such a beautiful and huge new building in poverty sticken india.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Ahmadjee:
So unless an explanation is found, we keep rejecting the Truth from the Quran? That Isa :as: did not raise the dead? Or that Yunus :as: was swallowed by a fish and lived in it for days? Or that first borns of Egyptians can die in one day?
So I have two options before me as a Muslim…Hmmm…
The Quran, which states that these things happened or someone who tells me that unless they can either be proven by science or logical expression, they should be taken as lies…
Hmmm…On one hand, the Quran states that Isa Ibn Mariyam :as: raised the dead…On the second hand, I have a person who says that it must be ignored because it is scientifically impossible…
Hmmm…What is a Muslim to do…On one hand, there is the Quran from Allah :swt: which as a Muslim I know to be free from faults, the untainted and unchanging Word of Allah, the Truth from Allah :swt: Himself…The book which as a Muslim I know to have been untouched by any pen except that of Allah :swt: and it is telling me something…The book, whose laws push aside all the man-made laws for the supercedence of Divine Law…The book I must believe in with my heart, body and spirit…
On the other hand my latest prophet Mirza Sahib tells me that I must ignore some things in it…
What is a Muslim to do…?
Hmmm…There is my latest prophet Mirza Sahib telling me he is a Prophet but not a law bringing or law bearing prophet, yet a few of his laws are completely either contrary to the Quran or completely negating its message…
Hmmm…What is a Muslim to do…
Do I trust the Quran or this latest prophet…
Oh man, this is so tough for me to decide…My God, guide me…What do I do…
But wait…Will there be another prophet? After all, the line of prophets never ended…There might be another one negating the laws of this prophet and what if ink spots appear on his shirt?
Oh my GOD? What if another one comes and another one and each keeps changing the laws of Quran…Is Quran the last book from Allah :swt:? Will there be more books? I know there will be more more prophets. Prophethood didn’t end…It will keep going on…
My latest prophet’s laws go quite against the Quran’s…What if the next one brings a whole new book and discards the Quran?
My God, what do I do? Do I follow the Quran or the laws of this man?
What is a Muslim to do!?
A little melodramatic but strangely effective, no…? Bur does it get my message across?
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
ahmadjee, all the time on this forum we have ahmadis claiming that Isa (as) was dead and how ghulam ahmed qadyani made research and found his grave (i.e. Isa (as)'s grave) in kashmir....
and now u come and claim that mirza himself was Isa bin Maryam (as)....
no wonder i stick to my view on ahmadi beliefs that to cover up one lie u have to produce many more....
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Please friends, stick to the topic. This thread is not about validity of ahmadi beliefs
Mr. Ahmadjee and FrozenFire :
*Re: Founder of Ahmadiat belonging to Rich and Influential Family *
Here is something what Mr. Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has told us about his family and its influence, and how his father provided resources to British colonial Govt to curb mutiny, kill his own countrymen, also brothers and sisters in faith (muslims at that time) . He appears to be darn proud of services rendered to British Govt by His father who got reward and recognition in return. (see attached image)
Re: Followers of Ahmadiat being rich, I have not met a single Ahmadi who is not well-off. Maybe I have limited exposure. I have no stats or evidence regarding this, It is just an observation :)
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
code_red, here is another similarity between the two that u missed out....
both bahais and ahmadis have their worship buildings (do they call them mosques?) in israel....
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Mr. OuiJa And Mr/Ms FrozenFire, I have tried to address your concerns. I have no scale to to judge financial prosperity, It is just an observation. Being rich is not a bad thing at all specially if the funds are utilised for comunity development and general well being of followers :)
Peace and Universal Brotherhood is message that is almost unanimously common among all religions and sects. Even those who advocate violence still do it in the name of peace. Though you can argue that the followers Ahmadis & Bahais emphasis on peace and brotherhood more so than other religions/sects.
The main differences between the Bahai & Ahmadis are that: 1. While Bahaullah is regarded by his followers is just another prophet like so many before, Ahmadis consider Mirza Sahib to be a specific prophet prophesied by AnHazrat (saw), 2. While the Bahais consider Quran as just another source of wisdom, Ahmadis believe it to be THE source and a complete & last revealed books. 3. While Bhai consider AnHazoor (saw) to be just another prophet Ahmadis consider him to be Khatam-ul-ambia or the greatest of all prophets 4. While Bahai consider their religion a new one, Ahmadis consider their to be the very same Islam that was presented by Hazrat Muhammad (saw) 5. While the Bahai consider Bahaullah to bring together all the major religions in the world, Ahmadis consider that Islam brought forth by AnHazoor (saw) 1400 years ago did that and Mirza Sahib (as) only revived it in it’s pure form as the servant & true follower of AnHazoor (saw).
.
Ahmadjee bhaijaan, what you wrote down as differences are infact similarities, please read them again :) You have just tried to present them in diluted form.
Re- # 5 I guess you need to get more knowledge about your religion In several books of Mr. Ghulam Ahmad, he claimed the same that he came to unite all religions, be it Christanity,Hinduism,Sikhism and Islam
Re- #4 This is a big misconception, Ahmadies have. Although Loving Islam and prophet Muhammad is part of their religion, but at the same time Ahmadiat is a separate religion it self According to Founder Mriza Ghulam Ahmad and his lieutenants :
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has used some very provocative(abusive) language against those Muslims who do not believe him, so I leave these quotations out
just to avoid negative emotions
[quote]
Anyone who does not believe in the Promised Messiah (Qadiani) is a nonbeliever, indeed a hardened infidel and outside the circle of Islam (Kalimatulfasl by Mirza Bashir Ahmad Qadiani, son of the Mirza, p 110)
Our prayers were segregated from them (non-Ahmadis). To give them daughters in marriage is forbidden, we are not to participate in their funerals. So, what is left? (Kalimatulfasl by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, p.169)
It is ordained that we should consider non-Ahmadis as non-Muslims and not pray behind them. To us they are deniers of an apostle of God. (Anwaar-e-Khilafat by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood, p.90)
[/quote]
So ahmadiat do consider Non-Ahmadis as non-believers and Muslims believe the same for Ahmadis So for the sake of clarity, we treat Ahmadiat and Islam two different religions
Now Ahmadiat is not free from sectarianism. The religion is itself divided into two main factions, Ahmadia movement and other is known as Lahori group. Both groups have major differences in ideology just like Sunni and Shia in Islam
Re-#3 It is the bone of contention :) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed that he is re-incrination of several prophets, including Muhammad(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) and many more
also he said that all the prophet are inferior to him.
So in effect Ahmadies believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is The greatest Prophet
[quote]
In the word of God I have been named Muhammad and a Messenger. (Roohani Khazain, p. 18/207)
I am Adam, I am Noah, I am David, I am Christ, the son of Mary, I am Muhammad. (Roohani Khazain, p. 22/521)
I have every Messenger hidden inside my shirt! (Nazool- il-Masih p.100)
[/quote]
I have no objection to these beliefs as everyone is entitled to believe what he likes. I am just trying to clarify
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Oh man, so many questions, so little time.
AQ, I have never heard of what you mentioned but if you can give me a pointer in terms of some book, I can try to find it out for you.
Lajjo, if you would like I can give you a link that explains quiet well the verse 3:47 that you seem to be hung up on. Will that work? In short, Mirza Sahib (as) was often asked by Christian preachers that isn’t giving someone life on earth a virtue of God and he would say yes, and then they would argue that Jesus (as) raised the dead and gave them life and even Quran agrees, so he must be god. While others try to show Jesus (as) superiority over Hazrat Muhammad (saw) by stating the very same miracles that you mentioned, which none were performed by AnHazoor (saw). I myself have talked to evangelist priests and they are not shy to bring it up when cornered that Jesus (as) spoke of God when he couldn’t even walk but Muhammad (saw) didn’t.
Hazrat Mirza Sahib’s answer to those Christians was that it is contradictory to Quranic belief that you be given more than one life in this world. Quran repeats over and over again that you live and then you die and then you are raised only on the Day of Judgment. The verse (3:47) means that Isa (as) gave spiritual life to those who were spiritually dead for generations. And that is a far superior miracle than raising someone physically from the dead. At one instance Mirza Sahib related the story of Hazrat Bilal (ra) to that Christian and how Hazrat Bilal (ra) was revived from near death and then given a spiritual life under the guidance of AnHazoor (saw) and thus giving him true life. Because if Hazrat Bilal had physically died and AnHazoor (saw) would have brought him back to this physical life and he goes back to Idol worship than what good was his miracle? So, if you understand this verse in the sense that Hazrat Isa (as) brought back the spiritually dead to life, one can argue that almost all prophets performed that miracle but none did it better than AnHazoor (saw) and his Sabaha are the proof who were given the best of spiritual life through AnHazoor (saw). This interpretation of the verse is in accordance with the belief that AnHazoor (saw) is the greatest of all prophets and this is the Ahmadiyya belief!
Armaghul, your statement seems to suggest that you do selective readings. Just to make it clear again, Hazrat Isa (as) died a natural dead as is claimed in Quran, and not on the cross as is claimed by the Jews and Christians. The ibn-e-mariyam talked about in the Hadiths is suppose to be the Messiah for the Muslims but if Isa (as) is already dead, he has to be from among the Ummah and Mirza Sahib (as) claimed to be that. Is that clear now?
Ahmadis have a mosque in Haifa, which was build before Israel was created on the map. There is a whole town near Haifa that became Ahmadi and thus the mosque was built.
Cody Bhai,
What you mention goes beyond comparing the Bhahai & Ahmadis but I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge.
-Mirza Sahib (as) have always thanked the British for bringing stability and freedom of religion in India and Punjab in particular. The kind of freedom of religion that wasn’t present from Akbar to the Sikh Raj, where Mosques were used as horse farms. He believed that Islam being the true religion has the best chance to grow in a society where freedom of religion is valued. His repeated affirmation of this view in his books is because Hindus, Christians and Muslims all together tried to convince the British that he was a trouble maker and a threat to their government. Muslims said that as he claimed to be the Messiah its only a matter of time before he tells his followers to fight the British, while Hindu & Christian leaders tried to frame him from murder to mail fraud.
The issue of being the ‘buruz’ or the claim of being the likes of other prophets, Mirza Sahib (as) explained it many times throughout his books that AnHazoor (saw) is the collection of the attributes of all the prophets and he (Mirza Sahib (as) ) is only AnHazoor (saw) reflection. He considered AnHazoor (saw) to be the sun that eliminates by itself and himself to the moon that only reflects the sun. So the claims on him being the like of Noah etc. should be understood in relation to his claim of him being the reflection of AnHazoor (saw). Taking quotes from here and there wouldn’t do you any good.
The difference between the Bahai and Ahmadiyya belief on bringing all other religions together is drastically different. While Bahais believing that Bahaullah did that job, Ahmadis believe that Islam brought forth by AnHazoor (saw) did that. To give an example, Ahmadis believe Islam to be the flower that contains the wisdom of all other religions, while Bahai believe that Islam is only a leaf, just like any other religion.
Phew. Now that I had said it all, I am sure there will be a million more questions totally unrelated to the comparative religion at hand, so in case the thread get closed or get into mud slinging contest, please feel free to PM me for anything.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Name one place in Quran or Sunnah where it says Isa :as: died and I’ll give you mulitiple quotations where he lived and was raised alive…
Name any other Prophet of Allah who ‘raised’ the dead from Quran or Sunnah and I’ll show you multiple instances where he did…
Your religion not only negates the belief of Islam itself but Christianity’s too, of which both believe that Isa Ibn-e-Maryam :as: raised the dead…
But no, you’d refute both the Bible and the Quran (Both Allah :swt:'s scriptures) to support the claim of Mirza Sahib that he did not raise the dead…
How can you take the word of one man against two scriptures? And that too, an intelligent, educated and a fairly religious person as yourself?
It’s really amazing…
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
If you need to argue, argue on the basis that the interpretation of the verse raising the dead that I presented is not accurate and then list down some reasons. Showing emotions doesn’t go far in a discussion. I am perfectly fine if taking all the revealed text as literal makes you a stronger believer, but I consider Quran and other revealed books worth a lot more than what meets the eye.
Also, I suggest you read any commentary of Surah Anfal, verses 25-26-27, where Allah commands the believers to come to Him and the Holy Prophet, so he may give them life. What life? Spiritual life or physical life?
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Ahmadjee…
Here is Surah Al-Anfal in three translations, verses 25 - 27:
Yusuf Ali, Shakir and Pickthall translation…
http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moiz/quran/browse.cgi?sura=8&aya=25-27&ya=1&sh=1&ph=1
Where does it say anything about giving them life?
Or is it a Qadiyani translated Quran in which Khatam is translated as ‘best’?
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
No, Lajo, it's the Qadiyani numbering system that gives Bismillah the ayat # 1, try verse 24.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Oh…Didn’t know about the Qadiyani numbering system…Now I am wiser…Thanks…
You talk about literal meanings and such so let’s compare the two sentences:
Here is 3:49:
In it, the translations clearly state in all three translations:
Quickened the dead, brought the dead back to life, raise from the dead…Click the link and see…
http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moiz/quran/browse.cgi?sura=3&aya=49&ya=1&sh=1&ph=1
No doubt in the translation, right?
How many did Jesus :as: raise to life? 12? Of which one betrayed him (Judas)…So Jesus :as:, according to Qadiayniat, raised only 11 to life, since one lost his ‘life’…What had the few thousands and thousands of Jews done that they were not given life?
Don’t lose me here AJ…I am not arguing for argument’s sake…
If these 12 were given life, what did the others do? And we must remember, there was a time when thousands of Jews came to him for guidance…So, after being given life, in a sense, those thousands and thousands of people died? And what about Lazarus, the man raised from the dead?
Now, let’s look at verse 8:24:
Calls you to **that **which gives you life…
http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moiz/quran/browse.cgi?sura=8&aya=24&ya=1&sh=1&ph=1
Is the Holy Prophet :saw: giving out life? Is even Allah :swt: giving out life? No…It is the Message, Islam, giving them life if they come to it…
These are very simple and plain translations…I don’t see how Jesus, in simple words is being mentioned raising the dead in both Quran and Bible can be confused with something which gives you life, also in the Quran and Bible…
Every Prophet of Allah :swt: brought the people a Message that will give them life and they have been mentioned doing such…
But no Prophet or person has been mentioned bringing a person to life…In both faiths…
So we can assume when the Quran mentions about taking their lives and bringing them to life again on the day of judgement, would it mean that spiritually, their religion would be taken from them and returned on the day of judgement?
It makes no sense if we don’t take the words literally…
The curing of the blind would mean something else…Curing of the lepers would be something else…Ibrahim :as: sacrificing his son and him being replaced would be something else and so on…
And so, here stands Qadiyanat…With no end of prophets in sight since their line never ended, new books from god since there can be a new messenger and new laws by which ‘Muslims’ will lead their lives…
So…Will there be more prophets with newer interpetations of Quran? Or did Mirza Sahib say that he was the last one…
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Lajjo, I didn’t mention the verse 8:24 so you can compare it’s words to the verse that talks of Hazrat Isa (as) miracles, instead I pointed it out so you understand that the interpretation that prophets of Allah bring back the spiritually dead through their message & their example is not something I came up with myself, instead it is mentioned in Quran in relation to our Holy Prophet (saw).
As I mentioned before, if the literal translation suits you, if you think it elevates your spiritual sense, if it makes you understand or believe in Islam or existence of Allah more so, then by all means believe that Isa (as) raised people from the dead. As it goes against my understanding of Quran, the honor of AnHazoor (saw) and actually makes me doubt the scriptures, I will go with what makes more sense to me.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
guys come on, the thread was comparing ahmediya and bahai
why do we keep getting in the same discussion in every thread on this topic. let this one be what it was meant to be.
code red requested it already but you guys just dont let it go.
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
How decending of Jesus AS affect Islam?......
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
how victory or defeat of romans affected Islam????
something told by the Quran or the Prophet (saw), and u have to believe....
not bring on the views of some guys who came 1400 years after the Prophet (saw) and falsifies him with his own views tha Isa (as), unlike what Muhammad (saw), is dead and burried....
Re: Bahai and Ahmadi religion- The similarities
Ahmadjee Bhai, No matter how many goody good justifications you may present for these actions, in the end of the day, Every Yaqoob, Rajesh ,Mahindar Singh of subcontinent will call this act as “treason” and call him (father of Mirza Sahab) a “Traitor” . Period
Disagreeing with ideology and line of action is one thing, Physically and materially helping enemy is something totally different. You have a lost case on this one 
Comming back to the topic …
Now this is a very important question to Ahmadies and Bahais (if there is anyone reading this)
As I have pointed out the similarities between the two religions, Is there a way that these two very progresseive and modern religions join hands and combine their forces to promote collective religion ??
I see no reason why they should not do this because :
Both religion believe that new prophets can come as reformers from time to time( ahmadies believe that new prophet must confirm teaching of Prophet Muhammad :saw: )
Bahaullah did confirm the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) and if you read more about this religion, most of the teachings are derived from Islam, Same is the case with Ahmadiat.
I know most Ahmadies are going reject this idea straightforward, and point out minute differences, But if you analyse with open and cool mind, this is a very valid and beneficial prospect.