Given that there are no “original” manuscripts of the Qur’an - and the Bible for that matter - i fail to see the merits of the “written account” argument in this context. Oral transmission preceded available written collections in both cases.
Stalemate?
What do you mean by “wrong version”?
And we are not talking about one or two people having to memorise “hundreds of thousands of words”.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Given that there are no "original" manuscripts of the Qur'an - and the Bible for that matter - i fail to see the merits of the "written account" argument in this context. Oral transmission preceded available written collections in both cases.
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Agreed. That's why you will never hear me say that any ancient scripture or supporting scripture is 100% word of God.
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Stalemate?
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Yes. Same answer as above.
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What do you mean by "wrong version"?
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Meaning after A told B, the version changed. When B told C, it changed from the original version even more. And so on and so on. Perhaps the 3 hypothetical witnesses were all telling the same account of version G. It doesn't mean they ever knew what THE version was.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
That's why you will never hear me say that any ancient scripture or supporting scripture is 100% word of God.
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I'm assuming you don't follow any "ancient scripture"?
Interestingly, i just met with a chap earlier today who informed me that back in his hometown in western Africa children are not permitted to learn/read directly from a copy of the Qur'an until they have memorised at least the last section (36 chapters) of it by heart simply by listening to it recited to them without reference to a printed copy.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
I'm assuming you don't follow any "ancient scripture"?
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No, what I said was that I don't believe any ancient scripture to be 100% word of God.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
No, what I said was that I don't believe any ancient scripture to be 100% word of God.
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So you don't follow any ancient scripture 100%?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
So you don't follow any ancient scripture 100%?
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I think the question is redundant, assuming you have read Seminole's other posts.
I haven't... can you point me to one?
Well, here](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153007&pagenumber=4#post2543811) is one
That post speaks of abrogation. It doesn't answer my earlier question or prove Seminole's statement regarding his belief that no "ancient scripture or supporting scripture is 100% word of God". See the difference?
Well, at the risk of sounding like his spokesman, I'd say he already answered that he doesn't think that any ancient scripture is "100% word of God". Your follow up question was "So you don't follow any ancient scripture 100%?", the answer was given previously.
Makes sense?
Doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Its his personal opinion and beliefs, just like you may believe that Bible is tempered with and thus is unreliable in parts.
You are jumping the gun... my question "So you don't follow any ancient scripture 100%?" remains unanswered.
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
So you don't follow any ancient scripture 100%?
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No, I don't.
If you follow scripture in part, how do you decide which part is from God and which not?
Very similar dilemna I believe when one has to determine which hadith are from God, which brings us full circle.
Interesting that you don't compare Qur'an with Bible, but prefer to compare hadith with Bible...
The norm with hadith is that no hadith is from God unless proven otherwise... is this also your standard with your scripture?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
The norm with hadith is that no hadith is from God unless proven otherwise
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Shouldn't it be that "hadith is from the Prophet and not from God, period." ?
Seminole, correct me if I am wrong, but even if you knew something is from God, you can still choose to ignore it, if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Right or wrong?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Shouldn't it be that "hadith is from the Prophet and not from God, period." ?
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An authentic hadith pertaining to instruction about Islam is revelation from God is it not? Albeit transmitted to us by the Prophet (saw) in his own words, actions, example etc.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Seminole, correct me if I am wrong, but even if you knew something is from God, you can still choose to ignore it, if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Right or wrong?
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I think a lot of what was revealed in the Bible (esp Old Testament) and in the Quran were practices for the people of that time and place, so a lot of it is not applicable to the 21st century. I belive that fundamentalists of both faiths do not try to make that distinction. Of all the ancient scripture I find the most truth in the Biblical teachings of Jesus, as I believe it is how God wants us to live our lives. Unfortunately for the most part we fail to live up to those standards. I have no delusions that the Bible is unchanged since the time of Christ, but I believe the modern translations carry the spirit of Jesus, and if not God's words, at least God-inspired.
When do you think changes began to creep into the New Testament?