Austria, Hungary prevent US troops crossing their territory, as Turkey delays vote

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

Nadia,

There were very detailed congressional hearings last week on a plan for post war Iraq. I will try to find a link for you.

Found it, here is a summary:

Policy before the Committee on Foreign Relations U.S. Senate
Statement by Douglas J. Feith, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, February 11, 2003

Post-War Planning

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee:

I am pleased to have this opportunity to talk with you today about efforts underway in the Defense Department and the U.S. Government to plan for Iraq in the post-conflict period, should war become necessary.

If U.S. and other coalition forces take military action in Iraq, they will, after victory, have contributions to make to the country’s temporary administration and the welfare of the Iraqi people. It will be necessary to provide humanitarian relief, organize basic services and work to establish security for the liberated Iraqis.

Our work will aim to achieve the objectives outlined by my colleague, Under Secretary of State Grossman:

First, demonstrate to the Iraqi people and the world that the United States aspires to liberate, not occupy or control them or their economic resources.

Second, eliminate Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons, its nuclear program, the related delivery systems, and the related research and production facilities. This will be a complex, dangerous and expensive task.

Third, eliminate likewise Iraq’s terrorist infrastructure. A key element of U.S. strategy in the global war on terrorism is exploiting the information about terrorist networks that the coalition acquires through our military and law enforcement actions.

Fourth, safeguard the territorial unity of Iraq. The United States does not support Iraq’s disintegration or dismemberment.

Fifth, begin the process of economic and political reconstruction, working to put Iraq on a path to become a prosperous and free country. The U.S. government shares with many Iraqis the hope that their country will enjoy the rule of law and other institutions of democracy under a broad-based government that represents the various parts of Iraqi society.

http://www.defenselink.mil/policy/speech/feb_11_03.html

42

>>The U.S. government shares with many Iraqis the hope that their country will enjoy the rule of law and other institutions of democracy under a broad-based government that represents the various parts of Iraqi society.<<

Thanks, OG. That was a useful link.
It sounds fantastic on paper. What’s that saying - the proof is in the pudding. 60-65% of Iraq is comprised of Shi’ites; if we are talking about “broad-based” governments, that would signify that the new Iraqi government should be predominantly Shi’ite, then Sunni, then Christian. Another important aspect to include regards Ba’ath party members - what do you do with them? What do you do with the northern parts of Iraq, the Kurdish areas? How do you fit them into a broad-based govt.? How do you grant the Kurds autonomy without scaring the Iranian and Turkish govts.? There are lots and lots of questions i can come up with, that no one has any specific answers for. i agree that your link presents some wonderful things that i like to hear - if the Iraqi people will actually be allowed to choose their own government in a post-Saddam Hussein era, then that would be a very good start.

43

Back to the original thread.

And, do not believe for a second that an accomodation with Turkey will not happen:

US military vehicles land at Ýskenderun

Activity is also stepped up at the Ýncirlik Airbase.

February 19— Although Ankara and Washington have failed to reach an agreement on the deployment of US forces in Turkey, the build up of US military equipment has apparently started.

 A number of armoured vehicles and loads of ammunition were discharged from the US Ro-Ro “Tellus” at the port of Ýskenderun, on Turkey’s south eastern Mediterranean coast on Wednesday. In addition, there were also wheeled transport vehicles unloaded from the vessel.
   The cargo was discharged amidst tight security, supervised by Turkish officials and 50 US soldiers. 
   Current, US experts are upgrading three Turkish ports, including Ýskenderun, for possible use should the Turkish parliament approved the deploying of US forces in Turkey. 
   There was also a high level of activity at the ncirlik Airbase near the southern Turkish city of Adana, which is also being renovated. An increased number of fighter and tanker aircraft were seen to take off and later return to the base, which is jointly used by the Turkish, US and British airforces.

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/202460.asp

The “Tellus” is a rollon-rolloff military transport shipwhich has been loading helicopters and armor in Antwerp.

44

All I hear is it can't be done. These people would rather have Saddam in place than work with the only power that can and is trying to change the lives of the Iraqis for the better.

No other country in the world can do this task. Except the United States. EU has finally broken out of it't french and german shackles and will forge with the US, along with Australia and Russia (sooner rather than later)

45

Nadia,

" Another important aspect to include regards Ba'ath party members - what do you do with them? What do you do with the northern parts of Iraq, the Kurdish areas? How do you fit them into a broad-based govt.? How do you grant the Kurds autonomy without scaring the Iranian and Turkish govts.? There are lots and lots of questions i can come up with, that no one has any specific answers for."

Lot's of Congressmen wanted to know precisely how much it was going to cost too. Some things cannot by their nature be specific, until events unfold. That is why it is actually reassuring that the basics are being thought through, and the goals have been established. The details may largely be up to the Iraqi people. I would suspect that the vetting of the Baathist will be of particular importance to those who have been tortured, and that the creation of a semi-autonomous region will be important to the Kurds. This is why I believe that the Turks will relent after their little bargaining delay, because whatever arrangement that is established for the Kurds in Iraq will become the defacto standard in Turkey and Iran.

To create a hyper-detailed plan at this stage is a bit presumptutous. The goals of humanitarian relief, WMD, civil order, and a democratic process are about all one can hope for at this stage, and if you look hard enough at that document, you will see very specific language addressing the oil issue, and explicitly stating that it belongs to the Iraqi people, is there for the benefit of the Iraqi people, and that the US has no claim on it.

46

>>...if you look hard enough at that document, you will see very specific language addressing the oil issue, and explicitly stating that it belongs to the Iraqi people, is there for the benefit of the Iraqi people, and that the US has no claim on it.<<
Excellent.
In a post-war and post-Saddam Hussein era, let's hope you are able to come on this Forum and prove how wrong i was to harbor all these misgivings.

47

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
*>>...if you look hard enough at that document, you will see very specific language addressing the oil issue, and explicitly stating that it belongs to the Iraqi people, is there for the benefit of the Iraqi people, and that the US has no claim on it.<<
Excellent.
In a post-war and post-Saddam Hussein era, let's hope you are able to come on this Forum and prove how wrong i was to harbor all these misgivings.
[/QUOTE]

One shouldn't expect that to happen overnight though.

48

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:

And, do not believe for a second that an accomodation with Turkey will not happen
[/QUOTE]

Maybe, maybe not. But did you read the Turkish Prime Minister's comments about the upgrading of bases in Turkey recently?

49

Malik,

Yes, and you saw how fast Hungary went from not letting US military pass to training Iraqi exiles! :)

50

If you did then why you will not be shy in sharing with us the full story i.e. as to what the Turkish PM said about the upgrading of bases in Turkey.

Here is an article just to prove the point:-

Bush’s war timetable unravelling

The Bush administration’s determination to keep to a tight timetable that would see its forces ready to go to war against Iraq by early March is in danger of coming unstuck. Plans to open a northern front against Iraq - seen as vital to ensure a pincer movement against Baghdad - were looking shaky last night as Turkey resisted an ultimatum from Washington to accept US troop deployments or forfeit a multi-billion dollar compensation package. The White House spokesman, Ari Fleischer, warned Ankara it had been presented with a final financial offer - believed to exceed $26bn - and that a response was needed. “There comes a moment when plans must be made, decisions must be made, and it cannot stretch on indefinitely,” he said. The trouble with Turkey is compounded by fresh diplomatic hurdles. The US and Britain have been forced to postpone until next week the publication of a second UN resolution designed to marshal support within the security council for military action.

The resolution will now not be put to a vote before early March, following another report by the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix. British jitters over persuading the UN to back war were underlined yesterday when officials insisted that they would press ahead with military action even if the resolution were heavily defeated. The likelihood of such a defeat has deepened with the open rift between the US and France and Germany which was again on display yesterday. The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, in effect accused the two European countries of being too cowardly to go to war.“It is not a satisfactory solution to continue inspections indefinitely because certain countries are afraid of upholding their responsibility to impose the will of the international community,” Mr Powell said. But the most urgent problem facing the US in its push to war is Turkey, traditionally a staunch Nato partner. The Turkish leader, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, indicated yesterday there was little sign of the impasse being resolved quickly, saying there were no plans for a parliamentary vote this week on allowing US troops on Turkish soil.

Failure by Turkey to open its bases to American troops would mean that US transport ships carrying thousands of servicemen and essential equipment would have to be re-routed to the Gulf or elsewhere. Any diversionary attack against Baghdad from the north may then have to be scaled back dramatically. The block on US servicemen might also leave the Kurds vulnerable to an Iraqi counter-attack. As a fallback position, US special service troops and Kurdish fighters have been upgrading three airstrips in northern Iraq which might be used as advance supply positions. But the US would be denied the modern infrastructure of the main Turkish airbases such as Incirlik, Batman and Diyarbakir. The latest opinion polls in Turkey suggest that 90% of the electorate is opposed to war. Turkey’s resistance to participating in an unpopular war, which it fears would undermine its weakened economy, has been bolstered by the strength of anti-war protests around the world last weekend. The US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, admitted the lack of cooperation was causing some discomfort: “Obviously, the more assistance one gets the easier it is. The less assistance one gets, the more difficult it is.” He predicted an eventual Turkish climbdown.

The disarray over military planning will boost the Iraqi government, which has already been buoyed by Mr Blix’s last report as well as by worldwide anti-war demonstrations. UN officials said yesterday that the Iraqi government has been emboldened to the point where it sees no urgency in meeting the weapons inspectors’ call for deeper cooperation. In a move which suggests that the inspectors are taking a tougher stance, Mr Blix has decided to ask Iraq to destroy its al-Samoud 2 missiles, diplomatic sources said last night. Iraq’s response to the demand will be a crucial test of the inspection system. UN officials in Baghdad also said yesterday that they had detected a disturbing shift in Baghdad’s attitude in the last few days. They say the protests have encouraged Iraq to believe it can turn the divisions in the security council to its advantage, a strategy that could stall the speedy progress sought by Mr Blix, who is expected to make a further report to the security council around March 6 rather than, as suggested by Washington and London, on February 28.

So with Austria, Hungray and Turkey stopping American troops actually doing anything from or across their territory, the US military will have go the long route. :slight_smile:

51

No problem, $26Bil of myvoices’ money gets to pay for anti-terrorism here at home, and new pro-islamic Turkish regime screws up their economy big time.

Military considerations are not that big of a deal. Driving tanks though mountainous passes is very difficult and slow anyway.

And, please notice the interesting phrasing in the article below:

"US Lands Military Equipments in Turkish Port Without Permission
Feb 20, 2003
Source: Islam Online

The US-flagged ship Tellus Wednesday, February 19, offloaded 522 military vehicles among other military equipments, in the Mediterranean port of Iskenderun, southern Turkey without permission from the Turkish government. The vehicles included army trucks, radio transmission vehicles and other types of troop transporters, according to footage broadcast by the network, Agence France-Presse (AFP) said.

The CNN-Turk television network said the vehicles were assigned to units involved in the “upgrade” of Turkish ports and airports, a mission authorized earlier this month by the Turkish parliament ahead of a possible war with Iraq."

Odd that they do not mention the blackhawk and longbow helicopters that were loaded on the same ship, that DEFINITELY are not to help rebuild anything…

52

Is turkey ally of usa?

-we turks fought for usa in korea, our soldiers died for the safety of usa soldiers, in return usa helped PKK terror organization which fougt turkish army for 15 years (this connection was proved by hundreds documents)

  • we helped usa in previous gulf war, we losed 100 milliard dollars in gulf war because of usa (iraq was our biggest trade partner), they leaved the region with out losing money

-we helped to usa in cold war against Socialist russia, a usa citizen is regarded with most high respect in turkey; many muslim turkishs are being treated bad in usa, many turks were arrested and deported after 11 september.

-usa used turkey to enter bazaar of turkic middle asia counries, they are still using turkey to enter petrol area of hazar. But we turks did not see any utility of usa. usa proveked student movements in turkey before 1980 to prevent socialist russia. Because of usa thousands turks died since they killied each other in the name of nationalism- leftism struggle. All cities were divided in two parts (leftist-nationalist) area, because usa wanted such a brother fight for their own safety.

  • a last poll %94 turks are against usa policy and %88 hate usa.

-usa needs turkey to settle in caucasis, middle east. Turkey has a very stragetic place, but turkey does not need them.

  • because of new war turkey will lose 100 milliard dollars again, we are always in economic crisis because of bush gang familie's imperial wishes. Many our companies are beeing cloed because of their imperialist wishes against iraq)

  • usa supports greeks in cyprus issue. They put an embargo on turkey after cyprus war. They still support greece although we did everything for usa.

  • a kurdistan in north iraq is direct threat to integrity of turkey and usa trained many kurds in guam as burocrat, soldier to establish new kurd state, concisely usa betrayed his ally turkey. usa is not reliable ally. They once supported saddam against iran and now they try to eradicate him and tomorrow they will do same to turkey. what kind of ally is usa? their helicopters carry a lot of guns to pkk terrorists and some of them was catched by turkish troops. If this new(our last hope) government will give permission to usa to settle their troops in turkey, they will never be elected again. They know this reality closely. Also if 80000 usa soldiers settle here it will be impossible to let them away from turkey, we are independent, honourable country usa can not behave to us like he did to katar or kuwait. Turkey is not like iraq or something, turks overcame british, france, greece and italy in same time in independence war. Usa must think twice before giving ultimatom to turkey. If he loses turkey, he will lose middle east, caucasis, balcan and middle asia and his most warrior and reliable ally (turkey), turks have more alternatives to get friendship like EU and islamic countries. I still want to trust turkish parliament, they will not give permission to usa and I know that usa needs north front to enter iraq. Also usa is aware that if they enter baghdat and iraq is divided, turkey will enter orth iraq and thismean usa will have another enemy to struggle with. Turkish commandos are too much professional than usa soldiers, north iraq will be able to be grave for usa soldiers because of those commandos. Take care...

53

Here ya go…

Turkey moves to allow in U.S. troops
By Seva Ulman
From the International Desk
Published 2/20/2003 2:30 PM
View printer-friendly version

ANKARA, Turkey, Feb. 20 (UPI) – Ankara moved Thursday to end a standoff with Washington by announcing it would send to parliament a motion to allow U.S. troops to deploy in Turkey, but U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said he wanted a reply by the end of the day.

The Turkish move was intended to ease a crisis in relations between the two NATO allies. The bone of contention has been the terms for allowing U.S. and possibly other “coalition of the willing” forces into the country on their way to form a northern front in neighboring Iraq.

The U.S. military considers a northern front would greatly expedite conduct of the widely expected war to topple Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

The Turkish constitution requires parliamentary approval for foreign troops to be allowed into the country. The parliament went home for the weekend Thursday without taking up the motion, but was expected to do so early next week, possibly Tuesday.

Powell said Thursday in Washington he expected an answer from Turkey by the end of the day on whether it had accepted the terms as negotiated

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Yes my suggestion got real, Turkish parliament rejected the deployment of usa troops in turkey, the usa soldiers who were waiting near a turkish port on ships will have to go their home. The parliament prefered to be honourfull than having dollars.

55

Yes, some American’s were really counting the chickens before they were hatched. :hehe:

This is good for the Turkish people and the Turkish nation. The parliament has respected the will of the 95% of people in Turkey who want nothing to do with America’s war mongering. For now it seems that the Turkish government will not call for another vote:-

Turkish Ruling Party Says Has No Plans for Vote on U.S. Troop Deployment](Yahoo News: Latest and Breaking News, Headlines, Live Updates, and More)

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Hungary: U.S. Military Violated Airspace

BUDAPEST, Hungary - U.S. military aircraft violated Hungarian sovereignty last month by using the country’s airspace for unauthorized purposes, the defense minister said Saturday.

The incident occurred Feb. 20 when six helicopters and a tanker aircraft belonging to the U.S. armed forces flew over Hungary on their way to a military base in Romania, Defense Minister Ferenc Juhasz said at a meeting of parliament’s defense committee.

Hungary had only permitted the United States to use its airspace in connection with the Enduring Freedom operation in Afghanistan. But the Feb. 20 flights were for other, unspecified purposes.

Juhasz said the United States informed him Friday afternoon that a mix-up had occurred and the seven aircraft in question had not flown to Afghanistan.

“The United States apologized for the incident,” Juhasz said.

The government sent a “strongly worded” reply asking U.S. authorities to avoid similar mistakes in the future, Juhasz said.

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Austria :k:

58

Another slap in the face for the US, and a further example of how so many countries across the world are openly defying the US.