Austria, Hungary prevent US troops crossing their territory, as Turkey delays vote

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Austria?

The best man at my wedding wasted a year of his life studying the the government of Austria, and it is not the most dynamic government in the world. (snore)

To answer you questions, the reason I noted the unemployment rates in Germany and France is to highlight the potential growth of those countries. The former Soviet bloc countries will see their economies grow at a rate of two or three times that of France or Germany. They will be the growth engines of Europe. Having thrown off the shackles of socialism, they will work most of the year( instead of being on holiday 50% of the time as the French are) and the heart of Europe will shift east.

And understand this. The 26 BILLION in handouts for Turkey is optional. Some guy in the US worked, and made money and paid taxes to the government. They are perfectly welcome to refuse it. Fine by me. If they fail as a result of that, so be it. But the Turks have been allies for a very long time, I doubt there will be a serious rift. If the Turks are angry, it will be at France and Germany and Belgium for letting them swing in the wind at NATO. THAT will not be forgotten.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:
**Austria?

The best man at my wedding wasted a year of his life studying the the government of Austria, and it is not the most dynamic government in the world. (snore)

To answer you questions.... **
[/QUOTE]

It's always so revealing to see you some American's mock other countries who don't agree with their policies, but just justifies what many always say about America's "tolerant" view of the world.

You did not answer my core question, so I will put it to you again. Austria, Greece, Hungary are very much part of that "New Europe" i.e. not that "old" Europe of France and Germany. While the UK is very much part of that "old" Europe in case you know post-WW2 history.

Is "New Europe" only limited to those who support US policies rather than on historical and political realities, and "old Europe" obviously those who dare to oppose you?

P.S. Hungary is part of that former Socialist bloc if you did not know. :)

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No, Old Europe are those with quasi-socialist economies that are not growing. The UK is doing quite well, and has not fallen into the same welfare state as France and Germany. Ironically many Guppies have pulled out the “wag-the-dog” theory with regards to the US.

If you are the head of a government with 10 percent unemployment, perhaps the first thing you do is to seize upon an issue to distract the populice from the economic difficulties that are evident. I am highly suspect of goverments with high unemployment taking a holier-than-thou morally outraged position, especially when they are trying to shut up their peers in the EU. Never mind the fact that France sold Iraq it’s now defunct reactor, and Germany provided a chemical precursor to North Korea a month ago!

" The North Korean ship that last year delivered Scud missiles to Yemen transferred a large shipment of chemical weapons material from Germany to North Korea recently, U.S. intelligence officials said.

 The ship, the Sosan, was monitored as it arrived in North Korea earlier this month carrying a shipment of sodium cyanide, a precursor chemical used in making nerve gas, said officials familiar with intelligence reports."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20030218-330306.htm

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:

No, Old Europe are those with quasi-socialist economies that are not growing.
[/QUOTE]

Are you sure that is the defintion that Saddam's old buddy Rumsfeld used to define them? No. He tried to rather sloppily make it out as France-Germany v the rest i.e. Eastern and Central European countries. But that fell rather flat on it's face as many of the latter are now openly disrupting US plans for Iraq, which has rather like the "axis of evil" outburst left America in confusion again.

As it is "New Europe" are those who support the US, even if they are as "old" as the UK. While "old Europe" are those who oppose the US, even if they are as new as Hungary.

25

"Are you sure that is the defintion that Saddam's old buddy Rumsfeld used to define them?"

Yes, Rummy and I talked this weekend, and that is the EXACT definition he prefers. :)

26

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:

Yes, Rummy and I talked this weekend, and that is the EXACT definition he prefers. :)
[/QUOTE]

If you don't know what the very author of that term meant, then I suggest you carry on pontificating, while all the while that defintion gets changed ever more as more countris in Europe start opposing the US. :)

27

OG, did u ask rummy about why his cousins the 'Rumsfelds of Germany' are ashamed of being related to him. :D

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
OG, did u ask rummy about why his cousins the 'Rumsfelds of Germany' are ashamed of being related to him. :D
[/QUOTE]

hahah

29

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The "Ultimatum", is a "last offer" ultimatum. The equipment ships are just as easily diverted to Kuwait, but the strength of the US force will not be present to help hold back the Kurds. **So Turkey would have MORE refugees, MORE political unrest*, MORE military expense, and NO badly needed cash, loan gurantees, and IMF Package. Without these their entry into the EU is probably jeopardized.
[/QUOTE]

So is this how we like to win our War on Terror? Sounds like that kind of environment may actually breed more violence...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by spoon: *

So is this how we like to win our War on Terror? Sounds like that kind of environment may actually breed more violence...
[/QUOTE]

That is a very good point. By making the world a you and "us", and dividing it into "old" and "new" the Bush regime is doing more lasting damage to it's world interests in the long term.

31

Not just that.. on topic, if we blow off Turkey and do away with the northern front, we will only be entering a more difficult immediate struggle in Iraq, and leave open the problem of terrorism.

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If it’s not Austria, Hungary and Turkey giving the US problems it’s dozens of other countries from Africa, Asia, Europe and Latin America also speaking out against US war mongering.

U.S., U.K. Struggle Over Iraq Resolution](Yahoo News: Latest and Breaking News, Headlines, Live Updates, and More)

33

Very accurate observation regarding “old” and “new” Europe, Malik :k:
Seems as though the majority of countries around the world have substantial doubts regarding whether or not to endorse a US-led aggression against Iraq, even critical NATO members such as Turkey.
Austria and Hungary have set the standard now - i hope more European countries follow their lead, Insha’Allah :k:

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Old and New have nbothing to do with duration of existence. It has more to do with "old" way of thinking.

35

"Austria and Hungary have set the standard now - i hope more European countries follow their lead, Insha’Allah "

Nadia,

I am so glad you are seeing the light and have chosen to follow Hungarys lead:

ALLY IN MIDDLE EUROPE
Anti-Hussein Iraqis in Hungary for Training by U.S. Military
By PETER S. GREEN

ASZAR, Hungary, Feb. 12 — Behind the high wall of concrete slats and barbed wire that surrounds the Hungarian Air Force base in this small southwestern town, the first group of Iraqi volunteers is training to join an American army that may invade Iraq.

The arrival of the Iraqis, shrouded in official secrecy, has brought the politics of the Middle East to this town of 3,000 people, mainly farmers and Hungarian military families.

Trucks and vans with white United States Army license plates rush down Taszar’s few roads, pushing aside the local residents sedately riding their bicycles. Construction workers are finding well-paying jobs on the base, and the town’s half-dozen bars and grocery stores are sporting new coats of paint.

At day’s end, the streets are filled with Hungarian soldiers and officers in uniform returning home from the base, but Americans and Iraqis are nowhere to be seen. Under orders from Washington, the Army will say little about the Iraqi volunteers.

In a Hungarian officers’ club just outside the gates of the Taszar base, a United States Army spokesman, Maj. Bob Stern, said the Americans were too busy training the Iraqis to introduce them to journalists.

Despite rumors, he said, the Iraqis are not being trained as hit squads to assassinate President Saddam Hussein. Instead, the major said, volunteers selected from Iraqi opposition groups are learning to act as liaisons with American military units, translating for them and guiding them in patrols, combat missions and the task of administering and rebuilding Iraq after a possible invasion."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/19/international/europe/19HUNG.html?ex=1046235600&en=0c0cfc32bbf336b6&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

36

The latest from Turkey is that it has yet again failed to support US troops using Turkish soil for an attack on Iraq, with the normally pro-US President coming out publicly declaring that the UN must pass a second resolution specifically authorising that. That is something that the Bush regime is largely dismissing…

37

OG,

Iraqi volunteers training in Hungary? Wow. i wonder whether they have heard of the numerous Iraqi opposition groups and individuals who have criticized current US plans vis-a-vis Iraq? What would they make of their Iraqi brethren in exile who are against those particular US policies?

38

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Malik73: *
**The latest from Turkey is that it has yet again failed to support US troops using Turkish soil for an attack on Iraq, with the normally pro-US President coming out publicly declaring that the UN *must pass a second resolution specifically authorising that.** That is something that the Bush regime is largely dismissing...
[/QUOTE]

i just read that, Malik. Well well well - dear old Turkey seems to be dragging its heels against the US. i wonder who exactly is in favour of this war - there do not seem to be too many countries left by now. :)

39

Nadia,

These are individual volunteers and ex-pats in Hungary, not representatives of one group or another.

I cannot believe that you give any credence to the Iraqi National Congress whining. While I believe that there are a great number of Iraqi exiles that should be listened to, frankly most of the prospective rivals to Saddam have been slaughtered.

The Iraqi National Congress wanted to be annointed, and their current squabbling is nothing more than elbowing infront of the event. If you look at what has been said by the US, before any faction assumes leadership there must be a new constitution drawn up which recognizes all ethnicities, and implements a true democracy.

40

OG,
Sorry, maybe my comments will not be pertinent to this thread, so we can move this discussion to the Iraqi opposition thread if you want.
>>If you look at what has been said by the US, before any faction assumes leadership there must be a new constitution drawn up which recognizes all ethnicities, and implements a true democracy.<<
i am sorry, but where did you find this from? The last that i have read, the US was interested in seeking the assistance of an Iraqi exile who had publicly stated (although he later renounced it four decades later) that Kuwait was a part of Iraq and deserved no independence. Not to mention all the various problems associated with Ahmed Chalabi (wanted for fraud and embezzlement charges in Jordan).

i don't see this Iraqi exile group in Hungary as representative of all Iraqi exiles around the world. We had Iraqi exiles participating in the anti-war protest in my city, as well as (i am assuming) around the world.