Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
gupguppy, you have some patience talking to this guy.. he's repeating the same stuff in every single post of his.
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AND THEN in other books he literally attributes the body to Allah and the organs. As in one of his books he said “Allah is as big as the throne” and in another says Allah has mouth and other ugly sayings Wal-^iathu Billah.
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Had ho gayee yar.. bring the frikkin proof already!!
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Wallah I wish you were right. But when ibn Taymah says:
“la binafi wala bi ithbat” it means: they did not deny nor did they confirm!!
At least admin that he clearly claimed that the salaf never denied that!.
That’s why he went ahead in his book Majmoo^ al-Fatawa and said “Allah sits on the throne and seats Muhammad by him” wal-^iyathubillah.
How could you defend statments like that??
Such beliefs are not hte beliefs of Ahlus-Sunnah, not the salaf nor the khalaf.
But I’m real happy that you do agree that the salaf did deny the attribute of the body to Allah. But you still want to justify that he said that they did deny it. It’s up to you, I’m glad you do agree that the salaf nor khalaf attribute Allah with body, organs, or the like. That’s the most important part.
Here are other refernces where ibn Taymiah also claimed that Allah is a body, or at least he claimed that the scholars of Islam never denied that attribute:
[thumb=H]ibntaimiah_tajseem34570_8568737.JPG[/thumb]
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
And to show more on that, the followers of Ibn taymiah who understand the belief of their leader more than us, also claim that the scholars of Islam never "denied" the attribute of the body or organs.
Here's what the head of the wahabies of our time said on his website:
[thumb=H]ibnBazKufur4570_8568737.JPG[/thumb]
Ibn Baz claims that it's an bad innovation to claim that Allah is clear from being a body, or that Allah is clear from having organs such as the pupil, tongue, throat.. Wal-^iyathubillah!!. That explains what I mentioned before from page 100 of his talbees al-Jahmiah of ibn taymiah as he says: “the imams never talked about that (attributing Jism – body to Allah) neither did they attribute Allah with it **NOR **did they deny it”.
There's no doubt that such attributes do not befit Allah and Allah is clear from being attributed with such attributes.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
The point we want to clarify is that Allah is clear from bodies or organs or resembeling the creations. Unlike what the wahabies say.
It's always great to repeat the golden sayings of Ahlus-Sunnah when talking about the attributes of Allah subhanahu.
The great true Salafi, Imam Ja^far as-Sadiq said: "He who claims that Allah is in something or on something or from something, commits ash-shirk. Because if He was in something, He would be contained, and if He was on something, He would be carried, and if He was from something, He would be a creature." Imam al-Qushairiy mentioned that in his book "Al-Risalah". Find it in page 6.
Sheikh Abdul-Ghaniy al-Midaniy al-Hanafiy ad-Dimashqiy who died in 298H said in his explanation to "Al-^Aqeedah at-Tahawaiyya": "Allah is not a body. Seeing Allah is not like saying the bodies.. for the one who is in a place and a direction, would only be seen in a place and direction". That is because he is a creation. Where as Allah, he is the creator, he is seen unlike the creations are seen.
Subhanallah the almighty,
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
is it just me or is this ahmad g really weird?
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Again I refer you to this advise: “The tongue is like a beast. If you do not tie it up, it attacks you.” One must watch out what he says.
And this forum for you to learn some good manners.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=177722
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Wow, you're really full of yourself. referring me to one of your own lectures, ey?
shakes head
Understand one thing - you're not our professor. Thanks. Now be on your merry way.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Nor did they affirm it! And yet somehow for you this means Ibn Taymiyya is saying Allah has a body which is a gross misunderstanding to say the least…
your problem is that you are latching on to a single line from here and there and building your whole argument around it… think about it: The very same salaf said (and i’ve quoted this from Ibn Taymiyya more than once) that describing Allah as having a body is “newly invented” and “that those who spoke about such things were innovators and at length they [the salaf] censured them.”… now after reading this for you to still insist that Ibn Taymiyya is saying the salaf never denied Allah is a body is completely illogical (what he means is that they never spoke about Allah using such terms as i’ve already explained)… how could they themselves “not deny it” and yet on the other hand censure anyone else who spoke about Allah in that way? You seem hell bent on catching Ibn Taymiyya out at any cost even if it means you have to charge the salaf with hypocrisy!
Same as above… and i’ve already quoted from the same work earlier… and the part just after your highlighted section says, “… and neither did any of the sahaba, their successors, nor their successors, or the Ahl al Bayt speak about it nor anyone other than them.”
huh!? He’s saying we should suffice by affirming for Allah those attributes that He has affirmed for Himself and deny for Him those attributes that He has denied for Himself and as for anything else we should suffice, as Ibn Baz clearly says on that same page, with the fact that there is no resemblance whatsoever between Allah and the creation nor is there anyone or anything like Him or equal to Him… talking about whether Allah has a tongue or this or that is an “innovation of the people of theological rhetoric” and that “those who spoke about such things [are] innovators” as i’ve cited from Ibn Taymiyya time and again…
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
The scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah were not sleeping when they refuted Ibn Taymiah and imprisoned him.
Guppy, this is where wahabies and Ibn Taymiah fool you.
They say Allah does not resemble his creations, but Allah sits on the throne!!
Who are they fooling in that?
Ibn Taymiah says Allah is almighty, he is powerful, and nothing resembles Allah.. (Because all that is mentioned in Qu’ran) THAN he says Allah is in a place, he has a shape, he created Adam and the humans looking like Allah, he says Allah takes assistance from angles…many deviant abhorrent sayings, that no Sunniy mentioned before him.Ibn Taymiah says the Salaf said and the Sahabah said.. but he lies.
The salaf never said “Allah sits on the throne” or “Allah is a large body that moves from one destination to the other” or.. other sayings such as his claim “traveling to visit the grave of Prophet Muhammad is a sin” and “asking Allah by Prophet Muhammad is shirk”.. And then he says: As the salaf and khalaf agreed!!
Allah is clear from resembling the creations.
That’s why I reported the saying
Imam Ahmad Ibn Salamah, Abu Ja^far at-Tahawiyy, who was born in the year 237 after Hijrah, and was one of the Heads of Great Salaf wrote a book called Al-^Aqidah at-Tahawiyyah. He mentioned that the content of his book is an elucidation of the creed of Ahl as-Sunnah wal Jama^ah, which is the creed of Imam Abu Hanifah, who died in the year 150 after al-Hijrah and his two companions, Imam Abu Yusuf al-Qadi and Imam Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan ash-Shaybaniyy and others. He said in his book: "Allah is supremely clear of all boundaries, extremes, sides, organs and instruments. The six directions do not contain Him--these are attributed to all created things."
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Claiming that salaf never denied Jism to Allah! This is a lie. He lied. Saying that entails that Allah has a body. That's why he in his book Majmoo^ al-Fatawa and said "Allah sits on the throne and seats Muhammad by him" wal-^iyathubillah. That's kufur.
Don't be fooled.
The salaf explicitly denied the Jismiyah from Allah. Now if you still think ibn taymiah does not believe so nor say so, that's not my problem at all. But don't be insistent on that when you lack the entire truth. You still have a lot to know about what really went on.
Why? Because you are not smarter the then scholars who imprisoned him, and who refuted him during his time, and whom reported their unanimous agreement that he opposed Ijma^ of the scholars in more then 60 Mas’ala. One of them is his claim that Hell fire terminates!!.. Did you know that? Did you know his followers do know that and they only say: we wish he did not say that?? Allah mentioned in the Qu’ran that Paradise and Hellfire is eternal by the will of Allah. Now I don’t want to open more than one topic at the same time, but you need to wake up! There’s many things that you have no clue about.
And now you defend Ibn Baz?!! Ibn Baz is objecting on as-Sabooniy because he said “Allah is clear from having a body, organs ..”. He claims that the salaf did not deny these attributes!! HE LIED. If that’s his claim then he does not know what the Salaf said.
By Ibn Taymiah, or Ibn Baz saying about Allah “He sits on the throne” or saying “Allah has a real foot that shoves it into hellfire”.. this entails clearly that they attribute to Allah the body. We ask Allah to protect us from such beliefs.
Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal Said: “Whomever believes that Allah is a body is kafir”. And he also said: “whatever you imagine in your mind Allah does not resemble that”.
**So: Ibn Taymiah was refuted by the scholars of his time because he deviated in many Islamic Issues in both creed and laws. Scholars who confrimed on him what he said or did authored books against him. And some of them were Mujtahids and some where Huffath and some were Mufassireen.
For exapmple in his Tafsir named "an-Nahr", the Grammarian *Abu Hayyan al-'Andalusiyy reported about Ibn Taymiyah having the belief that Allah is a body (Wal-^iyathubillah). He said: In his handwriting, a book of Ahmad Ibn Taymiyah, who was contemporary with us, which he called "Kitab-ul-^Arsh", I read: Allah sits on al-Kursiyy and has left a space for the Messenger of Allah to sit with Him. At-Taj Muhammad Ibn ^Aliyy Ibn ^Abd-il-Haqq al-Baranbariyy pretended that he is a promoter of his ideas and tricked him, until he took it from him; we read that in it. [The author of "Kashf-uz-Zunun" reported that about him also in Volume 2, page 1438.]
*
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
^ I don't see anything new here that warrants a further reply... having been unable to prove that Ibn Taymiyya anywhere said that Allah is a body you want to now get away with claiming that, well, he didn't deny Allah isn't a body... whilst conveniently failing to recognise that this means he neither affirmed it, but more importantly that he said and has quoted that to describe Allah as a body is an innovation and the salaf censured such talk...
(folds arms waiting for "teacher" Ahmad G to re-post the same things over and over again)
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
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Claiming that salaf never denied Jism to Allah! This is a lie. He lied. Saying that entails that Allah has a body. That's why he in his book Majmoo^ al-Fatawa and said "Allah sits on the throne and seats Muhammad by him" wal-^iyathubillah. That's kufur.
By Ibn Taymiah, or Ibn Baz saying about Allah “He sits on the throne” or saying “Allah has a real foot that shoves it into hellfire”.. this entails clearly that they attribute to Allah the body. We ask Allah to protect us from such beliefs.
Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal Said: “Whomever believes that Allah is a body is kafir”. And he also said: “whatever you imagine in your mind Allah does not resemble that”.
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So: at least, if you claim that ibn Taymiah only meant by his statments in the references I mentioned that the salaf did not literally "deny it nor affirm it".. he lied.
They did not affirm it and they did deny it.
And If you think that truly he did not believe that Allah is a body, than why does he say that Allah sits "Yajlis" wal-^iyadhubillah in the references I mentioned and adds that "he seats Muhammad by him"? Ya lateef. This is explicit kufur, I ask Allah to protect us from such belief.
Imam Tahawiy said: "Whoever attributes Allah with the attributes of the creations, is a kafir".
"Juloos" according to the Aracic language is assigned to anything that has a body. And the Qu'ran came according to the rules of the Arabic language.
:)
Imam Abu Ja^far at-Tahawiyy, who was born in the year 237 after Hijrah SAID: "Allah is supremely clear of all boundaries, extremes, sides, organs and instruments. The six directions do not contain Him--these are attributed to all created things."
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
only an ignoramous would then understand from this that Ibn Taymiyya said Allah is a body… so your lie is exposed for putting words into his mouth that he didn’t even say…
the salaf censured such talk - that Allah is a body - and it is, as Ibn Taymiyya said, a new invention of ahl al kalam… only someone with a severe comprehension deficiency would then understand from this that Ibn Taymiyya is saying Allah is a body…
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
No, an ignorant person is the one who denies before verifiying.
At least for yout it’s proven that Ibn taymiah lied by claiming that Sala did not deny “Jism” to Allah.
At most it’s not proven to you that he truly attributed “jism” to Allah.
But it’s your own problem. I told you that he claimed in his fatawa book (as i requoted) that “Allah sits on the throne and seats Muhammad by him”.
That is attributing the “jism” to Allah, and that’s Kufur, and that’s why he was imprisoned 4 times and died in Jail.
You are denying what you don’t know. And igonorance of something does not entail its non-existence.
Scholars who knew him and AFFIRMED WHAT HE SAID.
I gave you example of in the book of tafsir named called “an-Nahr”, the Grammarian Abu Hayyan al-'Andalusiyy reported about Ibn Taymiyah having the belief that Allah is a body (Wal-^iyathubillah). He said: In his handwriting, a book of Ahmad Ibn Taymiyah, who was contemporary with us, which he called “Kitab-ul-^Arsh”, I read: Allah sits on al-Kursiyy and has left a space for the Messenger of Allah to sit with Him. At-Taj Muhammad Ibn ^Aliyy Ibn ^Abd-il-Haqq al-Baranbariyy pretended that he is a promoter of his ideas and tricked him, until he took it from him; we read that in it. [The author of “Kashf-uz-Zunun” reported that about him also in Volume 2, page 1438.]
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
For those who want more details about the deviant sayings of Ibn Taymiah in attributing to Allah the body and organs, and in claiming the world is eternal and other abhorrent beliefs, you may look up along with page numbers and complete references:
Also Look up all the books of Imam as-Subkiy.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Due to ibn Taymiah's deviation to scolarly consesus (Ijam al-Muslimeen) many scholars OF HIS TIME and after his time declared and confirmed his deviation, and judged by his kufur explicitly.
Because belying Qur'an, or the hadith of the Prophet is kufur.
We ask Allah to protect us from misguidance, and to keep us steadfast on the path of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama^ah.
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Allah exists eternally without a place.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Many thanks Gentlemen for the thought provoking discussion, some excellent arguments made except for the irritable bowel syndrome (PCG) remarks which were way off the base.
Just one observation, too much time was wasted on Ibn Tammimya, after all he was not a Prophet or Sahabi thus does not deserve such attention. Ahmed G Brother, your knowledge and commitment Ahle Sunna is absolutely fantastic and I pray you continue on this pious journey but there is no point in trying to preach to the converted, while Guppy Brother showed remarkable tenacity and indepth knowledge in his defence.
Thanks again for such illuminating discussion…
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
A very interesting piece bro
Keep it up
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
my pleasure gentlemen... i don't see anything new in Ahmed G's response to warrant a further reply of any great detail... having been unable to prove that Ibn Taymiyya anywhere said that Allah is a body he's simply moved on to trying to prove and get away with claiming that, well, he didn't deny Allah isn't a body, conveniently failing to realise that this also means he neither affirmed it, hence Ahmed G's initial accusation (and i quote: Ahmed G: "I finally was able to find ONE OF THE BOOKS of Ibn Tyamiah [sic] that has his falst [sic] ugly saying about Allah that he is a body") is utterly false because as everyone can see the words Ahmed G first highlighted is where Ibn Taymiyya is speaking about the beliefs of another group... whilst at the same time Ibn Taymiyya said that to describe Allah as a body is an innovation and the salaf censured such talk... which is why Ahmad G's trying his darndest to bring other quotes from Ibn Taymiyya into the mix as his first quote only shows Ibn Taymiyya's innocence...
(folds arms waiting for Ahmad G to post the same things over and over again)