Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Well, if you can post a scan from IBN TAYMIYYA’S OWN WORKS in which he claimed ALLAH IS A BODY as you’ve failed miserably to prove so far then I’ll gladly concede to your position that he indeed erred

Tabqat al Huffaz… where he not only called him Sheikh al Islam but also a Faqih, a Mujtahid and more…

asked and answered

he was buried along with other Muslims in al Maqbara al Sufiyya… the graveyard was in fact razed later on to partly make way for Damascus university so the fact that some of the graves might now be outside of the cemetery’s original boundary is incidental…

why am I wasting my time?.. Sarim al Munki is the name of the book, not the author!

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

No no, it’s not enough for you to say about him “erred”!. Because if that was only an “error” or a simple mistake, the scholars would not have refuted him, authored against him.

If that was confirmed against him, that means he belied the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet, and that is kufur.

Is that clear? Once that is clear, I promise you to scan more than one of his books with sayings that no Muslim would say.

SO: ONCE PROVEN TO YOU, YOU WARN FROM HIM.
Abu ^Aliyy ad-Daqqaq said: “The one who withholds the truth is a mute devil.”

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

^ if you can prove with a scan from his own works that he said ALLAH IS A BODY then, yes, i'll certainly say it is a "statement and belief of kufr" without doubt (although i wouldn't declare him a kafir as neither you nor i are qualified for that - that's for the scholars - al Suyuti said he was Sheikh al Islam as we all know)...

and please don't bother to "scan more than one of his books with sayings that no Muslim would say" which has been your usual tactic throughout this thread... to give quote after quote, reference after reference to no purpose... stay focused... i've asked you to prove ONE statement as above... if you can prove that, you don't need to post anything else...

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Ok.
But you contradict your self when you say "it's a satatment of kufur" and then run away and say he is not kafir!! The one who says that statment is Kafir period. No matter what.

Imam Abu Hanifah declared a kafir for the one who hesitates in delcaring as kafir the one who likes Allah to the creations. Why? Because doing so belies the Qur'an, and the one who belies the Qu'ran or the Prophet is Kafir.

Allah knows best.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

How about you fulfill the conditions of takfeer before start calling someone a Kaaffir?

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Check out the following link to read what Ibn Taymiyyah - raheemahullaah - said about Hell and Paradise:

http://arabic.islamicweb.com/Books/taimiya.asp?book=381&volume=18&page=307&=%CB%E3+%C7%D6%DB%D8+%E5%E4%C7

Ibn Taymiyyah was asked about the hadeeth of Anas bin Maalik, from the Messenger, sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam said: ‘Seven never die or end or taste termination: hellfire and its people, the lawh (preserved-tablet), the pen, the kursee and the throne’. So is this an authentic hadeeth or no?

He answered: This narration with this wording is not from the saying of the Messenger, but rather it is the saying of some of the scholars, and the Salaf of this nation, and its scholars, and the rest of Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah are of the view that some of the creation never terminates fully, like paradise, hellfire, the throne and other things, **and no one believes that all things terminate except a group of the people of kalaam, the innovators, like Jahm bin Safwaan and whoever agrees with him of the Mu’tazilah and their likes. **This is an incorrect opinion, and is in contrary to the book of Allah, and the sunnah of His Messenger, and the consensus of the Salaf and their scholars, and there is a lot of evidence supportive of the fact that paradise and other creation remain existent, that I cannot mention in this paper, and there is a group of the people of kalaam and the philosophers who oppose the view of termination of all creation with some intellectual evidences, and Allah knows best

Majmoo’ al-Fataawaa Ibn Taymiyyah: 18/307

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

I must say, reading this thread has only increased my love for Ibn Taymiyyah. Since all the claims here are not even proven that they are actually from the man himself. It just proves the Soofiyyah and their likes will to any extenet to lie and discredit the Imaam, when so many of the Scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah after him praised him to the point they called him "Shaykh al-Islaam".. So and so said Ibn Taymiyyah said...

Please. I mean using silly stuff like Ibn Taymiyyah said Allaah Ta'ala sits on His Throne - this is a blatantly stupid and a silly thing to say, since those who have actually studied books like al-'Aqeedat il-Wasitiyyah know exactly what Ibn Taymiyyah says about that. He leaves it as Allaah and His Messenger left it - i.e. Istawaa 'alaal 'Arsh.

Leave the Imaam alone. He's probablly grazing in one of the Gardens of Jannah in his Grave right now (and we ask Allaah that it is so) and you people are spreading lies upon him without REAL evidence.

This does not mean Ibn Taymiyyah had no mistakes - he did. But as one of the Scholars said, his mistakes are like a drop in the ocean.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

you only continue to show your ignorance of basic Islamic aqida and jurisprudence… is everyone who makes a statement of kufr a kafir? is everyone who commits an innovation an innovator? no! no! no!

… so where’s this scan then??

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Look at the ignorance!!

gupgup asks: is everyone who makes a statement of kufr a kafir??
If he said the statment of kufr, he is kafir without a doubt. And he must return to Islam.
Should we start with you from scratch??

Allah ta^ala said: (at-Tawbah 65-66) the ayah that means: If they [the kuffar] were questioned they would say we were just talking and joking. Say to them: Is it Allah, his ayat and messenger you were belittling!! Do not give any excuse. You committed kufr after you had the belief.

Should I add to that verse?

Allah told that they blasphemed AFTER they were believers. (((Kafartum Ba^da Imanikum))).

Taj ad-Din as-Subkiyy said in his book : “There is no disagreement among al-’Ash^ariyy and his companions, say rather among all the Muslims, that the person who utters a saying of kufr or does the doings of al-kuffar is a kafir about Allah al-^Adhim. Furthermore, he will dwell eternally in Hellfire, even though his heart knows [the truth]. However, knowledge does not benefit him with [his] stubbornness and does not protect him [from becoming kafir]. No two Muslims disagree about that [judgment].”

Taqwa:
Ibn Taymiah first authored a book refuting Jahm about his claim that both hellfire and paradise terminate. Then he agreed with half of his belief after he declared him as kafir!! Yes, after that Ibn Taymiah opposed himself and claimed that hellfire ends.

Only ask me to prove it from his books and I will. Just ask on the condition that you are willing to accept the truth and not defend blindly.

Allah knows best.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

And I finally was able to find ONE OF THE BOOKS of Ibn Tyamiah that has his falst ugly saying about Allah that he is a body:

Ibn Taymiah Said:
[thumb=H]taymiah_julus4570_7681012.JPG[/thumb]

Where in his book called: Talbees al-Jahmieh page 101, Ibn Taymiah says:
"Ibn Taymiah attributes falsely the body to Allah he said: "It's not in the book of Allah, nor alsunna of the messenger, nor a saying of one of the Salaf of the nation of their leaders that that (Allah) is not a body, or that his attributes (Sifat) are not bodies or properties of the bodies...".

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

The great true Salafi, Imam Ja^far as-Sadiq said: "He who claims that Allah is in something or on something or from something, commits ash-shirk. Because if He was in something, He would be contained, and if He was on something, He would be carried, and if He was from something, He would be a creature."

Imam Ahmad Ibn Salamah, Abu Ja^far at*Tahawiyy, who was born in the year 237 after Hijrah, and was one of the Heads of Great Salaf wrote a book called Al-^Aqidah at*Tahawiyyah. He mentioned that the content of his book is an elucidation of the creed of Ahl as*Sunnah wal Jama^ah, which is the creed of Imam Abu Hanifah, who died in the year 150 after al*Hijrah, and his two companions, Imam Abu Yusuf al-Qadi and Imam Muhammad Ibn al*Hasan ash-Shaybaniyy and others. He said in his book: "Allah is supremely clear of all boundaries, extremes, sides, organs and instruments. The six directions do not contain Him--these are attributed to all created things." Such is the saying of Imam Abu Ja^far who is among the heads of as-Salaf. He explicitly stated that Allah is clear of being contained by the six directions. The six directions are above, below, in front of, behind, right, and left.

Imam al-Ghazaliyy said: " Allah, the Exalted, existed eternally and there was no place. He is not a body, jawhar (atom), or property, and He is not on a place or in a place."

Shaykh ^Abdul-Ghaniyy an-Nabulsiyy said: "He who believes that Allah fills the heavens and earth or that He is a body sitting above al-^arsh (ceiling of Paradise; throne) is a kafir."

O Allah I only intended to show the truth, and Allah knows best.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

nice try, but no cake for you… I said earlier that…

“i’ve seen Ibn Taymiyya misquoted too many times to fall for the games Ahmed G is playing”

… and this deceptive quote from Ahmed G just proves my point.

Ahmed G conveniently omits to reproduce the previous page (p.100) which shows that this whole discussion from Ibn Taymiyya is prefixed with the words “Qalu” (i.e. “they say”)… in other words, in this section Ibn Taymiyya isn’t expounding his own beliefs but rather the beliefs of the people of theological rhetoric (and this can be garnered even from the page reproduced above!)… only an ignoramus with a biased agenda would fail to see that… so Ibn Taymiyya is explaining that “they” (the people he is refuting) are the ones who are claiming that there’s nothing in the Qur’an and Sunnah stopping us from saying that Allah is a body!

Had Ahmed G actually shown the previous page of the very same work the lie would have been exposed - everyone would have seen that Ibn Taymiyya begins the section with the following words:

“The words body (jism), organs and expanse and such like of technical terms: it has already preceded from us on more than one occasion that the predecessors and imams did not speak about that… rather it is an innovation of the people of theological rhetoric.”

In other words, Ibn Taymiyya is out to prove the impermissibility of such terms because they are the invention of the very group he is refuting.

This quote matches the one I gave in Ahmed G’s other thread on ‘Abu Ayoub Al-Ansariy’ in which I wrote:

Ibn Taymiyya: “Certainly, terms like BODY, organs, expanse and such like are terms newly invented [about Allah]. We have related on numerous occasions that the pious predecessors and imams did not speak about such things, neither in negating them or affirming them. Instead, they adjudged that those who spoke about such things were innovators and at length they censured them.” (Minhaj al Sunna al Nabawiya 2/134+)

Ahmed G read this – realising it refutes his entire argument – and could do no better than accuse Ibn Taymiyya of lying.

Ahmed G misquotes Ibn Taymiyya - cropping the quote by omitting the very words that prove Ibn Taymiyya’s innocence of the false accusation – and he has the nerve to call Ibn Taymiyya a liar!!

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

I did not omit or misquote any page as you claim.
I have showed you and everyone the real quotes of ibn Taymiah. Now you said page 100 he negates that, I will verify that as to your claim.

BUT And I'm not finished quoting for you completely in other references what he says about Allah from attributing to Allah "Body, form, place, direction, movement, organs.."..

I will check again what you claimed has been omitted and come back to post the entire start of the page. And I will post more in other references as you wait for me insha'Allah. And also I will show you that ibn taymiah's first students are first to quote their leader about these matters.

And all those who try to deny what he said, are trying to defend a person whom hundreds of scholars confirmed on him his sayings, and thus they imprisoned him several times for his false sayings. (Ask me and I will quote to you who among the scholars of his time refuted and authored against him).

Also ibn taymiah is known to always attribute his sayings to the salaf. So if he said "all salaf and khalaf agree that Allah is a body" or "all scholars of alsunna agree that traveling to visit the Prophet's grave is a sin".. It's because he is lying. No scholar said what he claimed. He only attributes these beliefs to cover up for the lies.

Honestly, and Allah knows, I wish you were right that he or his first students did not say what they say.. But unfortunately all his books that are widespread do say so, and his students repeat after him.

Defending him in 1 quote won’t help, because there’s much more to see.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Taqwa.. just ask for it and insha’Allah I will show you.

Gupgup, I hope the first issue is cleared to you since you ignored to comment on it..

Just in case you forgot.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

and you’ve understood from your own chosen quote the very opposite of what Ibn Taymiyya was saying

yes, go check p.100 (I’m surprised you didn’t bother to check it before!), but can’t you see even from the page you’ve reproduced that he begins the critical sentence with “Qalu” (“they say”)? He’s not talking about his own beliefs… get with it…

don’t bother… we’ve already seen that you can’t be trusted to accurately reproduce quotes… on top of that, you misread the very quotes you do reproduce!

you had every opportunity to bring an irrefutable quote from his works where Ibn Taymiyya supposedly said Allah is a body (heck, you’ve been going on about it for so long!)… instead the best you can come up with is a dishonest and misleading citation where Ibn Taymiyya is clearly talking about the creed of other groups and yet you somehow ridiculously think he is expounding his own beliefs… I have little time for your deceptive games…

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Bismillah, Alhamdulillah Wassalatu Wassalamu ^Ala Rasulillah,

Unfortunaltely you really don’t know much about Ibn Taymiah. All that you know is what those who defend him and try to make assumptions and excuses for him in what he and his students say. But don’t rush to judge me on this criticism on you, because I will show you that insha’Allah further from his books and quotes with complete references.

I did read the previous page gupgup and here's the scan of what Ibn Taymiah said:
[thumb=H]ibntaimiah_tajseem4570_7696651.JPG[/thumb]

As I said Ibn Taymiah always quotes other's including Salaf and Khalaf in what he says. But none of them say really what he came up with!! He only attributes the claim to Sahabah (Radiallahu ^Anhum) and Salaf for being very authentic sources. But not to worry.

In the page you are looking at you said that he was only quoting misguided group’s claim about Allah being a body, and you claimed that Ibn Taymiah denies that claim.

In the quote you are seeing, page 100 of his book talbees al-Jahmiah ibn taymiah says: “the imams never talked about that (attributing Jism – body to Allah) neither did they attribute Allah with it NOR did they deny it”.

And that's the part where you skipped with .... as you can see in your quote:

[quote]
"The words body (jism), organs and expanse and such like of technical terms: it has already preceded from us on more than one occasion that the predecessors and imams did not speak about that… rather it is an innovation of the people of theological rhetoric."
"
[/quote]

;)

Anyways, from what you see Ibn Taimiah claims that salaf and scholars never denied that attribute (Body – Jism) to Allah!! AND THEN in other books he literally attributes the body to Allah and the organs. As in one of his books he said “Allah is as big as the throne” and in another says Allah has mouth and other ugly sayings Wal-^iathu Billah.

That shows you that he He’s a contradictive liar, and not a scholar. That’s why so many scholars authored against him and his sayings. Because the scholars of Islam of Salaf not only denied that attributes or its likes, rather declared as a kafir the one who attributes the body or organs to Allah.

The great true Salafi, Imam Ja^far as-Sadiq said: "He who claims that Allah is in something or on something or from something, commits ash-shirk. Because if He was in something, He would be contained, and if He was on something, He would be carried, and if He was from something, He would be a creature."

Imam Ahmad Ibn Salamah, Abu Ja^far at-Tahawiyy, who was born in the year 237 after Hijrah, and was one of the Heads of Great Salaf said in his book: "Allah is supremely clear of all boundaries, extremes, sides, organs and instruments. The six directions do not contain Him--these are attributed to all created things." Such is the saying of Imam Abu Ja^far who is among the heads of as-Salaf. He explicitly stated that Allah is clear of being contained by the six directions. The six directions are above, below, in front of, behind, right, and left.

Allah knows best.
Not to worry brothers and sisters. This discussion is very informative. I will show more insha’Allah of where else he says that statement explicitly.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Great article exposing the beliefs of wahabies:

http://www.answering-ansar.org/wahabis/en/index.php

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

^ Nice try. Nice fiction. Not a shred of truth in it. Another try to use the current trend of ant-wahabisim for their advantage.

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Ridiculous… the part not translated was already in my other citation…

Ibn Taymiyya: “Certainly, terms like BODY, organs, expanse and such like are terms newly invented [about Allah]. We have related on numerous occasions that the pious predecessors and imams did not speak about such things, neither in negating them or affirming them. Instead, they adjudged that those who spoke about such things were innovators and at length they censured them.” (Minhaj al Sunna al Nabawiya 2/134+)

… the point of quoting from the start of his discussion in Talbis al Jahmiyya was to show you – and as you’ve proven – that (1) he wasn’t expounding his own beliefs and (2) calling Allah a body is an invention of the people of theological rhetoric… this alone refutes your entire false accusation against him.

He doesn’t mean - as you incorrectly read - that the salaf didn’t deny that Allah is a body… he’s saying it’s something that’s so obvious (that Allah is not a body – and that this belief is “rejected by the sound intellect” as he writes elsewhere) that they didn’t even need to speak about it… and if heretical groups did describe Allah in this way then, when the need arose, the salaf “adjudged that those who spoke about such things were innovators and at length they censured them”.

no he doesn’t… he said they never spoke about it - see the difference??? – and if heretical groups did describe Allah in this way then the salaf “adjudged that those who spoke about such things were innovators and at length they censured them”.

So the only conclusion one can draw from Ibn Taymiyya’s words is that the salaf censured and declared as innovators anyone who said Allah is a body. Unlike your illogical conclusion that this means they didn’t deny He is a body!?

And if we go back to your original false claim (which you seem to have forgotten)…


"Ibn Taymiah attributes falsely the body to Allah he said: “It’s not in the book of Allah, nor alsunna of the messenger, nor a saying of one of the Salaf of the nation of their leaders that that (Allah) is not a body, or that his attributes (Sifat) are not bodies or properties of the bodies…”.

… he begins all of this with “Qalu” (“they say”), i.e. the people of theological rhetoric say all of this whereas you deceptively presented it as though Ibn Taymiyya was explaining his own creed…

you’ve failed miserably to show anywhere from his works that Ibn Taymiyya said Allah is a body… thank you…

Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf

Kaleem,

Can you prove it is fiction?