Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
ibn taymiyyah in all his works on the names and attributes of Allaah only quotes the predecessors, he never made anything up.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
no he didn’t… he disliked it if someone asked “how?” an attribute is… my query relates to a question the Prophet (saw) himself asked… what should we (or more specifically: what does teacher Ahmad G) understand from the Prophet’s (saw) question?
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
please bring the proof/references from imaam ibn taymeeyyah’s works
baraakallaahu feek
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
al-Khattaabee (d.338H) said "The madhab of the salaf with regards to the Attributes of Allaah is to affirm them as they are with their apparent meaning, negating any resemblance to them, nor asking how they are?" [mukhtasir al'Uluww]
Aboo Ya'laa said "the proof for the futiliy of ta'weel is that the companions, anod those who followed them from the tabi'een, understood them upon their LITERAL meaning, and they did not take recourse to ta'weel, nor did they move away from the apparent meaning. I ta'weel was permissable, then they would have preceded us in it." [ibtaalut-ta'weelaat li-akhbaaris-sifaat]
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
what about the hadeeth of the shin of Allaah 'Azza wa Jall?
what do you say about it?
see when you say things like the hands of Allaah represent "power" etc.. it causes a lot of problems and contradictions in your statements with regards to other Attributes.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
brother, the “wahhabees” do not consider al imaam aboo haneefah to be a murji’i, rather he had irjaa’ - if any “Wahabee” has said he was murji’i, i ask you to show us the proof of where this has been stated.
as for recognising aboo haneefah, we all recognise him for his fiqh, no doubt, but he is rejected in hadeeth. Why? not becuase he is a liar or anything. but because he had a WEAK memory… and that was not aboo haneefahs fault, and because the muhhadditheen did not accept his hadeeth, does not mean it is an insult to the imaam, they explained about his weak memory.
The great imaam, the zaahid, the great mujaahid and muhaddith of khurassan, 'abdullaah ibn al mubaarak (and he is one of the authorites of the salaf) said something beautiful: “We do not say as the Jahmiyyah say, that Allaah is on the earth, rather He has risen over His Throne!” And it was said to him, “How should we know our Lord?” He said, “Above the Heavens, over ('alaa) His Throne!” [Khalq af’aalul-'Ibaad - al bukhaaree]
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
sorry - jazaakallaahu khairaa brother : )
are you talking about the question he asked the slave girl?
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Bismillah, Walhamdulillah wa Sallallahu ^ala Sayidi Rasulillah,
Bro: gupguppy
The saying of an-Nabulsiy is the saying of the true salaf before him. They all agree in that belief without a doubt.
Shaykh ^Abdul-Ghaniyy an-Nabulsiyy said: "He who believes that Allah fills the heavens and earth or that He is a body sitting above al-^arsh (ceiling of Paradise; throne) is a kafir."
Regarding the meaning of the hadith of the slave girl, I'm not a muhaddith to tell you what it means. But Imam al-Bayhaqiy who was a great Sahfi3iy Ash^araiy Mujtahid told us what the hadith mean (as I explained in previous post, please look at that post).
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Bro: Ansaaree
You are right Imam malik disliked asking about the self of Allah, in specific, he objected on the saying of a man "How did Allah make Istiwa' "? He objected on him and said to him: "Allah Istawa as he mentioned in al-Qur'an, and asking about that is an innovation and only see you as a hypocrate".
Imam Malik said “Istiwa’ is confirmed, and the "how" (manners of beings) is not attributed to Allah”
About where did Ibn Taymiah say that Allah sits on the throne? Or where did he say that Allah is a body? Or where did he say that the world is eternal by kind?
Ibn Taymiah Said that Hellfire ends and the punishment on the Kuffar ends in his book named “Refuting who claims Paradise and Hell Ends” as he said in page 67 “Although those who say that hellfire has no end, not Qu’ran nor Sunnah nor sayings of the companions that support their saying”.
What clears this fact is that the student of Ibn Taymiah named “Ibn al-Qayim” said in his book named “Hadi al-Arwah” page 579/582 that Ibn Taymiah chose the saying that hellfire ends after he declared as kafir Jahm Bin Safwan for saying that both Paradise and Hellfire end.
Also Albani, the wahabi leader who claims to be a Muhhadith affirms that saying to Ibn Taymiah and complains about it but did not declare him as kafir saying “he made a mistake we wish he had not said that hellfire ends”.
Sheikh Salamah al-^azzamiy, One of the heads of Azhar in 14th century, said in “Furqan al-Qur’an” page 113 that “Ibn Taymiah said that hellfire ends although he had declared Jahm as Kafir for claiming that both hell and paradise end”
Imam San^aniy in “Kashf al-Astar” had made a strong refutation against Ibn Taymiah after he affirmed that ibn Taymiah said that hellfire ends.
Ibn Taymiah Attributes to Allah the words and letters.
Ibn Taymiah said in his book named “Al-Muwafaqah” page 4/107 “The truth is that Allah speaks with letters sequentially (that occur one letter at a time)”.
We ask Allah to protect us from such kufur. Allah is the creator of letters, languages, sounds, voices, lips and tongues. Allah’s Kalam (Speech) is not a letter or sound. Laysa Kamithlihi Shay’.
Ibn Taymiah Claiming that the world is Enternal.
Ibn Taymiah said in that the world is eternal by kind with Allah and this is among the most abhorrent kufur. He said that in his book “al-Muwafaqah” page 245. As he says “I have said before that what is eternal is the kind, not the world itself”. So he says the kind of the world is eternal. Confusing? That’s the beliefs of Philosophers. Imam Subkiy said that “he –Ibn Taymiah- had looked into philosophy and followed the philosophers in such sayings.
That saying is among the ugliest kufur to say. Ibn Taymiah also mentioned that in other references such as his book “Naqd Maratib al-Ijma^” as he objected on Ibn Hazm and was surprized to see that Ibn Hazm reported the Ijma^ (Unanimous agreement of the Muslims) that it’s kufur to claim what ibn Taymiah claimed. Ibn Taymiah said said in that book “An-Naqd” page 168 “I’m surprized to see him –Ibn Hazm- report Ijma^ on declaring as a kafir who argues that Allah is eternal, nothing else is eternal with him”.
So Ibn Taymiah is surprized that it is kufur by Ijma^ to say that there are things eternal other than Allah.
Also in his book “al-Fatawa” 6/300 he says “From here it shows also that those who have intellectual proves only shows that this is the Madhehab of the Salaf too. Their proof supporting the saying of the eternity of the world is that Allah is still attributed with the will”. Please check the references mentioned first.
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
For those who want more details about the deviant sayings of Ibn Taymiah in attributing to Allah the body and organs, and in claiming the world is eternal and other abhorrent beliefs, you may look up along with page numbers and complete references:
- The book named: “al-Kash-shaf al-Saghir about the beliefs of Ibn Taymiah” Authored by Sa^id Foodah.
- The book named: “As-Sayf as-Saqeel” for Imam Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthariy.
- The book named: “Ibn Taymiah is not a (true) Salafiy” authored by Sheikh Abdul-Halim ^Uways.
- The book named: “Refuting Ibn Taymiah in his claim the eternity of the world” for Imam al-Ikhmini al-Shafi^y who died 774 H. So he was during his time.
- The book named: "Al-I^tibar Bibaqa'il-Jannah wal Nar" for Imam as-Subkiy as he refutes Ibn Taymiah's claim that hellfire ends.
Also Look up all the books of Imam as-Subkiy.
Those are only some names of scholars who refuted him during his time. Those are only a few just becuase it was requested. If you wish, I can mention all the names of the scholars during his time who showed how he apposed Ahlus-Sunnah and left the path of his Mashayikh of his time.
The truth is simple to follow.
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Bro ansar, I do not why you are saying that Imam Abu Hanifah. He is al-Imam al-A^tham, one of the greatest and oldest scholar. He is one of the Tabi^een. He is the teacher of all scholars.
It's very sad to have someone say about him that his memory was weak?? Or that he was not strong in Hadith.
Please brothers watch what you say.
May Allah bless Abu Hanfiah, Shafi^iy, Malik and Ahmad. They carried the clear teachings of Islam, and defended our religion from all misguided sects.
Allah Allah..
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
yes, where did he say this? i’ve forgotten how many times i’ve asked this… Ibn Taymiyya himself criticised saying Allah is a body… end of discussion…
thanks for the rest of your typical copy-and-pastes from other web sites, paraphrasing it in your own poor English to make it look as though you’ve researched and authored it all… tut tut… citing books you’ve never even seen let alone read… and now you want us to take from al Kawthari who wouldn’t take a hadith from the companion Anas ibn Malik (r) because he said he was senile… shame on you…
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
gupguppy, I think I should start for you a session of Islamic manners and respect. But from the looks of it you do not deserve it.
If you had read references carefully, you would have seen that Ibn Taymiah's saying "Allahu Biqadril-^Arsh" means Allah is as big as the throne. And thus the scholars such as Imam as-Subkiy this is explicit kufur. And that was the reason ibn taymiah was imprisoned 4 times. Every time he would claim he repented, the 4 judges (they were from the 4 schools of thought) they ruled to imprison him and he died in the prison, and was not submitted to Muslim graveyard when he died. So now ibn taymiah is buried outside of the Muslim graveyard in Syria.
But you won't understand what that means because you have a lack of knowledge of what Ahlus-Sunnah said.
As I said, and I say again for those who can have sound mind and want the truth rather then arguing out of stubbornness, many scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah refuted ibn taymiah, such as Imam As-Subkiy and others from those who lived during his time.
The bottom line, is if you do not believe ibn Taymiah said what the scholars addressed him with and refuted him with, that is your problem. As long as one is aware that attributing the body or organs to Allah IS KUFUR. That’s what the article is about Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf.
That’s why I mentioned the saying of the head of the slafies of his time:
[quote]
Imam Ahmad Ibn Salamah, Abu Ja^far at-Tahawiyy, who was born in the year 237 after Hijrah, and was one of the Heads of Great Salaf wrote a book called Al-^Aqidah at-Tahawiyyah. He mentioned that the content of his book is an elucidation of the creed of Ahl as-Sunnah wal Jama^ah, which is the creed of Imam Abu Hanifah, who died in the year 150 after al-Hijrah, and his two companions, Imam Abu Yusuf al-Qadi and Imam Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan ash-Shaybaniyy and others.
He said in his book: "Allah is supremely clear of all boundaries, extremes, sides, organs and instruments. The six directions do not contain Him--these are attributed to all created things."
Such is the saying of Imam Abu Ja^far who is among the heads of as-Salaf. He explicitly stated that Allah is clear of being contained by the six directions. The six directions are above, below, in front of, behind, right, and left.
[/quote]
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Koie Faida nahin Sumjany ka.. these are followers of Ibn Taymiah
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
i’ve read the reference… and of course he neither said nor meant anything of the kind… it is the sheer height of desperation on the part of his detractors that the best they can come up with is three words he supposedly said/wrote out of hundreds of pages running into volumes without any indication of context… i’ve seen Ibn Taymiyya misquoted too many times to fall for the games Ahmed G is playing…
I guess the hadith master al Mizzi and Imam al Suyuti both knew this very well when they called Ibn Taymiyya ‘Sheikh al Islam’!
it was Badr al Din al Ayni, the Hanafi commentator of Sahih al Bukhari, who declared that no one imputes Ibn Taymiyya with kufr and heresy except one who is guilty of kufr and heresy himself… and Hafiz Ibn Hajr said likewise…
it wasn’t a unanimous edict by any stretch of the imagination… other judges disagreed with the ruling… and many other leading scholars have been imprisoned, so what?
he was buried in the Sufi graveyard, next to his brother… a couple of hundred thousand people attended his janaza
al Subki was himself refuted in Ibn Abdul Hadi’s, Sarim al Munki
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Aha, So now your complaints are about as-Subkiy himself, is it not!
Go learn and find out who the true Ahlus-Sunnah Scholars are.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
Bismillah, Alhamdulillah Wassalatu Wassalamu ^Ala Rasulillah,
- I don't have time to play games with you guppy. But I should say that at least you do not defend him nor his sayings like all wahabies do. That's a very good thing that we are happy about. Alhamdulillah.
However, I'm ready to show you a scan of one of his sayings attributing to Allah the sitting and the like. However, you need to declare AFTER you verify the scans i will post about his flase sayings, that Ibn Taymiah said what he said from what the scholars of Islam confirmed against him.
Where did as-Suyuti say that bout Ibn Taymiah?
He was imprisoned by 4 Qudat from the four different schools. That means the rulling by Muslim Judges and they were Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi3iy and Hanbali. They rulled to imprison him 4 times BECAUSE of his deviant sayings.
He is not buried in the Sufi graveyard as you claimed, ask any Syrian to check that out for you. Besides, wahabies are against Sufies, how could he be admitted to sufi graveyard.
Who is Sarim al Munki to refute as-Subkiy???
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
In the manuscript of "Tashnif-ul-Masami^", page 342, Muhaddith, Usuliyy Badr-ud-Din az-Zarkashiyy reported the agreement of the Muslims upon the kufr of whoever says that the kind of the world is eternal.
After mentioning that the philosophers said the world is eternal by matter and shape, and that some said it is eternal by matter but its shape is muhdath (has a beginning), he said: and the Muslims charged them (the philosophers) with deviation and kufr. Before that Hafiz Ibn Daqiq al-^Id, Qadi ^Iyad, and Hafiz Ibn Hajar said the like in "Sharh al-Bukhariyy". Hafiz as-Subkiyy confirmed this belief about Ibn Taymiyah in his treatise "ad-Durrat-ul-Mudiyyah" and as said previously, Abu Sa^id al-^Ala'iyy did too. This belief was reported also by al-Jalal-ud-Dawwaniyy in "Sharh-ul-^Adudiyyah".*He said: I saw in a writing of Abul-^Abbas Ibn Taymiyah the saying that the kind of al-^Arsh is eternal. *
Please look up the reference of these scholars of what they saw and what they confirmed on him.
Allah knows best.
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
And again:
In his Tafsir named "an-Nahr", the Grammarian Abu Hayyan al-'Andalusiyy reported about Ibn Taymiyah having this belief. He said: In his handwriting, a book of Ahmad Ibn Taymiyah, who was contemporary with us, which he called "Kitab-ul-^Arsh", I read: Allah sits on al-Kursiyy and has left a space for the Messenger of Allah to sit with Him. At-Taj Muhammad Ibn ^Aliyy Ibn ^Abd-il-Haqq al-Baranbariyy pretended that he is a promoter of his ideas and tricked him, until he took it from him; we read that in it. [The author of "Kashf-uz-Zunun" reported that about him also in Volume 2, page 1438.]
Re: Attributes of Allah - The Belief Of True Salaf
I not only posted one proof, or one reference, I posted full references with names of scholars who mentioned that. But you don’t want to accept the fact that Ibn Taymiah had deivated.
Please go to the references I mentioned read what it says there and come back to us and tell us what you have seen instead.
I’ll be waiting…