[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
I salute our dead soldiers for the sacrifice they made.
[/QUOTE]
for whom they sacrifice their life, FOR KAFFAR, SURE GOD WILL REWARD THEM WITH SAMETHING THAT HE WILL GIVE TO KAFFAR(I HOPE SO). even a child knows that why kaffar allies( pakistani army) is trying to kill or hurt those noble men. to make kaffar(usa and west) happy.
Originally posted by Sultan Suri: *
**What makes you so sure that the Army is not helping in hiding these foreign terrorists? *
what makes you so sure that they are not in FATA?
*We all know for a fact the attachments the military have to majority of these Jihads and terrorists. *
We all know for a fact the attachments the tribals have to majority of these jihadis and terrorists (after all many villagers from that area went to fight alingside their misguided brethren in afghanistan)
*For all we know it might be the military hiding them and then the military playing cat and mouse with the Americans when it comes to catching them. *
For all we know ronald mcdonald, the cat in the hat and bullwinkle, haiga, uncle sargam and maula jutt are calling the shots. must be good weed wherever you are, gimme some of that stuff you are smoking.
*Majority of the foreign terrorists and their heads were arrested in major cities not the FATA. *
exactly, that is where they were "caught" because maybe they did nothave the type of loyal protection they can enjoy by tribals.
MR FRAUDIA, I have a Q for you. what makes someone a terrorist, killing innocent people(doesn't matter muslims or not) or only killing white and none muslims. if your A is that innocent people them usa has killed more innocent people(remmber draping atomic bomb on two cities where more then 200000 innocent people inculding WOMEN AND CHILDREN. and don't forget vietnam, koria, iraq and afganistan, and usa does harber other terrorist countries like india(kashmir), jews in meddle east, russia and other) theN al qaeda and talban together. if your A is that killing only non muslims makes someone terrorist then, you WIN. WHATEVER YOUR ANSWER is, usa and its friends are bigger terrorist then obl and his friends. so please if YOU HAV TO CHOSE SIDES then use your mind and chose who has killed less innocent people. if don't want to chose then SHUT UP.
Originally posted by xtwo47: *
**MR FRAUDIA, I have a Q for you. what makes someone a terrorist, killing innocent people *
Intentional targeting of innocent people is a very differnt thing from people dying in war, even if innocent and caught in teh crossfire.
I will not defend Us using the atomic bomb, or other excesses.
But why are we in a comparative state here. look at each situation separately.
OBL and his loony gang has puposefully targetted innocent people in many countries, including people I knew.
quit going off on tangents, whatever Us did or Burkina faso, lesotho, burundi or Tonga did, that is their deeds, here we are talkign of the deeds of OBL and his gang. Focus..
** if don't want to chose then SHUT UP. **
if you dont want to behave, then we can arrange that you post at some site more suited to your maturity level :) this nick, as well as the other designer nick :)
Its sad that 8 soldiers had to die, but lets hope they root out all these fundos who are trying to use our soil for their brutal campaigns.
Too bad that it had to be like this, but I give it to the mujahideens for repulsing the Pak army. The results and the ferocity of this battle speaks volumes, and I don't forsee a peaceful settlement. It will definitely lead to even more stiffer resistance on both sides of the border, and Pakistani soldiers paying the price for a useless and unwinable cause..
May Allah has his mercy on everyone who lost their lives. They are all muslims, and I just feel terrible..don't really know what to say..and what to choose..
**14 paramilitary troops among 38 killed in Wana: Militants seek exchange of captives
By Ismail Khan
PESHAWAR, March 16: Pitched battles between hundreds of troops and suspected militants in the remote South Waziristan tribal region on Tuesday left at least 14 paramilitary soldiers and 24 suspected militants dead and scores of others wounded, official sources said.
At least 18 paramilitary troops were missing and it was not immediately clear whether they also had been killed in the day- long battles and ambushes, the sources said.
Two tehsildars of the local administration were also missing. "They are counting the heads," said one senior official in Peshawar late in the evening. "They are searching for their men and we don't know whether they are dead, wounded or have been captured by suspected militants," the sources said.
The battles described by officials in the volatile tribal region as the bloodiest in the hunt for Al Qaeda militants, raged for hours with the two sides exchanging heavy gunfire, mortars and rockets.
The militants, who according to officials and eyewitnesses numbered 400 to 500, fought 700 troops from the Frontier Corps's South Waziristan Scouts and Tall Scouts with marked professionalism.
An official reached on phone in the regional headquarters in Wana said: "They fought like professional, trained people. The way they were firing on our troops, lobbing grenades and shooting rockets, jumping from one place to another and changing positions has taken us by surprise," he said.
The Inter Services Public Relations which had earlier in the day put the death toll at seven, including four soldiers and three suspected militants, later avoided to give any update.
"We are not issuing any statement, the area comes under the purview of the tribal administration and they will issue a statement in due course," ISPR spokesman Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan told Dawn on phone from Rawalpindi. A late-night statement from the Governor's Secretariat, Fata, however, put the total casualty figure at eight soldiers dead and 15 wounded.
Twenty-four foreigners and their local protectors were also killed in the encounter, said the short statement. "The bodies of only two foreign elements have been recovered," it said.
But official sources in Wana claimed that 19 of the 24 killed in clashes with paramilitary forces were foreigners. "They have distinctive features. They don't look like locals. They either look to be Chechens or Central Asians," said one official.
President Gen Pervez Musharraf had warned tribesmen at a grand Jirga in Peshawar on Monday of serious repercussions if the operation against foreign militants failed.
He had put the figure of foreign militants in South Waziristan at between 500 and 600. Officials said that hundreds of paramilitary soldiers had moved to Kaloosha, a village about 15km west of Wana, to capture Al Qaeda militants and their local protectors, including Nek Muhammad, Haji Sharif and his brother Noor Islam.
At night, suspected militants fired rockets and mortars into army brigade headquarters at Zari Noor killing four soldiers and wounding seven others. "The area was cordoned off at around 0500 hours and a search launched at around 6:30 hours," the official said.
The official said that the exchange of fire began when a double-cabin pick-up truck broke the cordon and escaped, braving hails of bullets. "What followed was unbelievable. Hundreds of people emerged from nowhere and began what was a ferocious resistance," the official said.
He said that scores of foreign militants were able to escape under the cover of gunfire by their tribal sympathizers. Credible official sources in Peshawar and local witnesses in Wana said the battle had become so intense that at one point armed tribesmen and suspected militants encircled the paramilitary troops in an area surrounded by apple orchards, shooting at them from virtually all directions. Also caught in the siege was the commandant of the paramilitary forces in Wana, Col Khalid Usman.
It was at Kaloosha where the paramilitary forces took their heaviest casualties, both dead and wounded. According to one account, 11 soldiers died in the fight at Kaloosha.
Suspected militants launched spectacular ambushes and hit paramilitary forces at different places. One foreign militant, believed to be Chechen, who was killed in action was holding a grenade and had seven anti-personnel mines strapped to his body, a security official said.
A convoy of paramilitary forces on way to the South Waziristan camp came under fire at Dabkot near Wana, the official said. Two soldiers were killed and 12 others were wounded in the attack.
Officials and local witnesses said the situation had become so desperate that the Frontier Corps had to call in the standby regular forces of the Pakistan Army from its brigade headquarters at Zari Noor near Wana.
A contingent of over 400 troops was immediately dispatched to the area to give cover to and help evacuate the encircled soldiers of the paramilitary forces.
Unconfirmed reports said that an army soldier was killed and two were wounded when their convoy came under attack near Zha Ghondai. The army shelled the house from where its forces had been attacked and took six people into custody.
Announcements made on loudspeakers in mosques by local religious leaders asked people to keep calm and a Jirga of local elders and clerics was dispatched to the area to bring about a truce. The Jirga too was caught in the fire and was held at a big mosque in Zha Ghondai.
All roads leading to the area were blocked and women and children were seen fleeing for safe locations, witnesses said. Officials and witnesses said that militants fired at or seized several trucks and vehicles belonging to the paramilitary forces.
Senior officials in Peshawar said that most of the troops had pulled back from the troubled area after sunset. Only a small detachment of army had been left to resume search for the missing people, said one official.
He said the authorities in Wana had been approached by suspected militants to try and negotiate a swap of their people with the soldiers being held captive by them.
"They have approached the authorities to negotiate an exchange of prisoners," said the official. A resident in Wana said that clerics were making frequent appeals to people to remain peaceful and come out to help bring about peace and arrest possible new clashes. "There is a lot of tension," said a Wana resident on phone. "Nobody knows what happens tomorrow.**
**"We believe that 24 suspected terrorists have been killed," military spokesman Major General Shaukat Sultan told the Associated Press.
He said most of those killed were apparently Pakistani tribesmen suspected of sheltering the militants, but several were also believed to be foreigners presumed to be al-Qaeda members.**
Look at the hypocrisy of this stooge; at one point he says they are 'suspected terrorists' and then goes about saying most of the killed are apparently Pakistani tribesmen.
tik tik tik tik goes the clock. Fakiri Ipi soul lives on, history is repeating itself!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sultan Suri: *
The question then is that why didn't Pakistan listen to the Saudis? Why didn't you listen to the Saudis Xtreme bhai? I thought Taliban were good guys remember?
[/QUOTE]
Who says they are bad guys? Talibans can live how they want in their tribal belts as long as it doesn't impact the rest of Pakistan negatively. Let me repeat, we have no intention of letting our country become a stone age country of hicks on account of Wahabi ideology. Not while Saudis are driving mercs and shopping in M&S themselves. That's why I won't take OBL seriously until he takes his fight to Jeddah.
Things go from bad to worse..
*An Amnesty International report says Pakistan is abusing human human rights in the hunt for al-Qaeda members in Tribal areas
*
An Amnesty International report says Pakistan is abusing human
rights in the hunt for al-Qaeda members in Tribal areas
LONDON: In the hunt for members of al-Qaeda and Taliban in the border areas with Afghanistan, Pakistani security forces have failed to provide adequate protection to people in the tribal areas who are unconnected with such political violence. In recent weeks, arbitrary killings and arrests and deliberate house destructions have been reported from the area.
“Amnesty International (AI) acknowledges that the security of the people of Pakistan and curbing of political violence are important duties of the state. But in this context, basic civil and political rights of suspects and of people unconnected with such violence are all too often ignored. Measures to curb violent political acts must be placed strictly in a framework of human rights.” On February 28, personnel of the Frontier Constabulary stationed near Wana in South Waziristan Agency opened fire on a van approaching their post as they assumed that it contained ‘terrorists’. Six Afghan refugees, including a child, and five Wazir tribesmen were killed on the spot and another two died of their injuries later. An army spokesman stated that paramilitary forces fired in self-defence when shot at from the van and that civilians might have been hit in the cross-fire. The persons killed “may possibly be terrorists”, he added. Local people deny that there was an exchange of fire. The leader of the Khojelkhel sub-tribe stated: “The army fired on civilians without provocation.” On the following day, President Musharraf ordered an inquiry but did not make any commitments that its results would be made public or that those attempting to hide the facts would be held responsible.
The rights of those unconnected with political violence are also violated when a whole tribe is collectively held responsible for allegedly sheltering ‘terrorists’ and punished. In January, several houses were destroyed by the army to punish tribes who were suspected of hiding ‘terrorists’ and not cooperating with the army’s search operation. On 24 February, army units in the tribal areas arrested at least 25 people, possibly including foreigners and foreign women, in a raid near Wana. Their identities and nationalities were not revealed but Pakistani newspapers claimed that one of the detainees was Khalid al-Zawahiri who may be related to senior al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri and that he and others may have been handed over to the US forces. Earlier, President Musharraf had asked wanted ‘terrorists’ to surrender and promised that they would not be handed over to any other country.
A Foreign Ministry spokesman said: “If someone has committed crimes against any other country and is caught in an anti-terror operation, our priority is to hand him over to his own country. If that country does not ask for repatriation, then the terrorist is handed over to any country putting forward evidence to us.” Amnesty International has repeatedly expressed its concerns that supposed ‘terrorists’ may be handed over to their countries of origin or to the US in violation of Pakistan’s extradition law.
The federally administered tribal areas of Pakistan have a special constitutional status in Pakistan; they are governed by Political Agents under by the Frontier Crimes Regulation (FCR) of 1901 which also accepts the principle of collective responsibility and collective punishment. Attempts to reform the FCR came to a halt after the attacks on the USA on 11 September 2001. The Pakistan army entered the tribal areas for the first time two years ago when searches for al-Qaeda and Taliban began. Many members of the tribes resent this intervention; many attacks on army posts in the tribal areas have been reported.
by Shahid Qureshi
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Things go from bad to worse..
[/QUOTE]
Not really. No doubt civil liberties are curbed in times of war, which is always unfortunate. But let's not forget that traditional human rights and civil liberties , are not the norm as practised by some of the tribal chiefs in FATA, and can hardly be compared favourably to the rest of Pakistan. It's about time the Pakistani army moved into these lawless area's, and integertrated them with the rest of Pakistan.
Foreigners have no business waging war from any part of Pakistan, period, and we must all support the Pakistani army in flushing these people out.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Foreigners have no business waging war from any part of Pakistan, period, and we must all support the Pakistani army in flushing these people out.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Foreigners are also welcome to leave for Saudi Arabia to wage war from there instead. No doubt being devout wahabis the Saudis will be happy to have them and will treat them much better than us bad muslim Pakis.
Yes exactly. I read this editorial in the ‘Dawn’ today, and though it highlighted some of the things the Pakistani government needs to do to aid the uplift the FATA region, it also states some clear facts.
http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/17/ed.htm#1
Foreign militants
As the Wana operation continues, Gen Pervez Musharraf has said that about 600 foreign militants are still holed up in South Waziristan. This is a high figure, even though it has not been clarified whether the hunted men include any of the top Al Qaeda or Taliban fighters. Their presence clearly underlines the stakes involved in the operation in terms of Pakistan’s own internal security. The cost of failure would also spur accusations abroad that Islamabad is not doing enought to crack down on the Taliban and Al Qaeda remnants who persist in creating trouble for Afghanistan’s interim administration. They also add to the reputation of the tribal areas as a sanctuary for all kinds of undesirable and extremist elements. The problem began some 25 years ago when Pakistan became part of the US-led holy war against the Soviet Union, and the CIA provided overt and covert aid to the mujahideen to enable America to get even with Russia for its own humiliation in Vietnam. Led by Gen Ziaul Haq, Pakistan played second fiddle to the US and served as a sanctuary and a training and recruitment ground for the fighters. Those who joined this US-led war were not only Afghans and Pakistani tribesmen but also zealots from other Muslim countries.
**While some were indeed motivated by religious considerations, many had less than holy reasons for their involvement in it. When the Soviets finally departed, many of the foreign fighters chose to stay on in Afghanistan and took part in the ensuing civil war that practically decimated the country and brought the Taliban to power. They flourished in Taliban’s Afghanistan, which turned itself into a haven for terrorists, leading ultimately to 9/11. **While the US attack on Afghanistan in October 2001 brought about a radical change and ousted the Taliban, many Al Qaeda workers, including foreign militants, found shelter in Pakistan’s tribal areas where they enjoy a certain undeniable level of sympathy among sections of the local population. Rooting them out is seen as providing the rationale for the government’s operation which has now been going on for almost a month.
The government has asked local tribesmen in South Waziristan to raise a force themselves to pressure those hiding foreign elements to give them up. It has also given a guarantee that any foreigner who surrenders will not be handed over to any foreign country. However, Islamabad should realize that the local tribes need more than mere exhortations, even if they come from the president, to change age-old habits. There has to be something in it for the tribesmen other than being told that they must now integrate with the rest of the world so that Pakistan’s image can improve. **The region is extremely backward. Tribal attitudes have prevented the spread of education - and, ironically, without education and exposure, tribal attitudes will not change. ** Tackling this paradox must be the government’s priority as it establishes its writ in the region. This must be accompanied by a crash development programme aimed at improving the socio-economic condition of the people. A package worth Rs7 billion was announced some time back but the funds have yet to be released. Priority should be given to releasing the money and to planning more development projects. The state must be seen as a benefactor and not a hostile and intruding entity, as it has been viewed since colonial times. The Wana operation may have to be assertive, but it must also proceed with the region’s sensitivities taken into account.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
Ok Shawais, why don't you give us an example that Pakistan as a nation could follow? Saudi Arabia? Dubai? Taliban? Palestine? Iraq?
Let's have some practical answers for a change I'm all ears.
[/QUOTE]
Pakistanis should stop licking boots of their army. This is the first lesson.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Not really. No doubt civil liberties are curbed in times of war, which is always unfortunate. But let's not forget that traditional human rights and civil liberties , are not the norm as practised by some of the tribal chiefs in FATA, and can hardly be compared favourably to the rest of Pakistan. It's about time the Pakistani army moved into these lawless area's, and integertrated them with the rest of Pakistan.
Foreigners have no business waging war from any part of Pakistan, period, and we must all support the Pakistani army in flushing these people out.
[/QUOTE]
This post should be framed and hung on the wall behind computer screen by every ghupshup poster.
Points to be noted:
sounds like Ashcroft talking.
sounds like a hinduvuta leader commenting on Kashmir.
sounds like home security officials warning the sleeping cells.
When the shoe is on the other foot it does feel different, doesn't it?
Looks like the pakistani army can't handle the tribes too well. Personally I think the tribal areas should be handed back to Afghanistan. After all they are the same people, or so I've been told, so let uncle karzai deal with them.
Maybe they will even end up capturing nasrullah babar and finally bring him to justice. Now that's one murderer I would personaly love to see hanged.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
Agreed. Foreigners are also welcome to leave for Saudi Arabia to wage war from there instead. No doubt being devout wahabis the Saudis will be happy to have them and will treat them much better than us bad muslim Pakis.
[/QUOTE]
The saudi government had agreed to finance his ideological war in every corner of the world under one prerequisite. That he would keep his fray away from the saudi soil.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Looks like the pakistani army can't handle the tribes too well. Personally I think the tribal areas should be handed back to Afghanistan. After all they are the same people, or so I've been told, so let uncle karzai deal with them.
[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding me?!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilaari: *
Are you kidding me?!
[/QUOTE]
Do you have a better idea? Why don't we ask the people of ghair ilaka if they want to be part of afghanistan or pakistan?
this is terrible this disgust me i don't understand how people can just sit there and applaud as muslims are fighting muslims!
Quote: "Musharraf has warned that there would be grave consequences for Pakistan should counterterrorism operations along the Afghan border fail".
What this tells me is Musharaff is being squeezed to death by America he must be under pressure like no mans business. This is the danger once you become a puppet your effectivley a slave and we all know how slaves are treated!