Stop this Bukwass. From the times after that of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), Muslims have been fighting and killing fellow Muslims.
If you look at the history of the Mughals, it is always brother killing brother or cousin invading cousin's land etc.
If these bayghairat gadhay kay aulaad maliks don't understand that they cannot persist with their nefarious deeds that harm Pakistan anymore, then they must be taught a lesson. It is one thing for them to tie up their womenfolk or "arrest" trespassers or smuggle goods. But if they start harbouring International Jahils that brings infamy to our country and places us in mortal danger, then they better be prepared to defend themselves.
No less a person than Gen.Musharraf went there and asked them to concede. Yet they refused. What are they thinking!
The sad part about this argument is how few people know whats really going on in the tribal areas..opposition to reform of the Tribal areas over the last 20 years has always been from Islamabad and and corrupt tribal allies of the government...the Tribal areas ares not run under ** No law ** they operate under the Frontier Crimes Regulation (effecyivelt the same laws the British used to control the area) which gives sweeping powers to any federal officer posted in those areas..the locals have absolutely no form of redress to even the Supreme Court of Pakistan if they are illegally detained.
Again the issue of foreign terrorists comes acorss the same way as Abdul Qadir ..for a long period one manr or these militants were venerated for being a heros or ghazis and now he or they are being given up as qurbani to appease the US.
The Afghan jihad ended in 1992 when the Russian puppet Najibullah was overthrown, so why did these foreign jihadis remain in the region if not to cause trouble? They preceded to aid the various competing groups in Afghanistan in plunging that country into civil war, and probaby want the same in Pakistan. That must never be allowed to happen, and the Pakistani army must crush them with the full force, and at the same time the FATA region must finally be dragged into the 21st century.
You know what you are asking for right? If this is ever seen as taking away the tribes independence, then all you will be doing is creating more enemies, and this time internal. You won’t be able to use the Islamic drum to round about support, that drum has been ripped.
Right, the foreigners might have ill wishes for Pakistan, though like a Waziri said “first they told us they are our brothers, good people, good Muslims and we should help them, and when they stayed with us, had families, made houses, now they are our enemies?”
These tribes are simple people, they don’t know politics, nor do they know what “policies” mean or do. It is part of their culture and heritage to defend and protect a guest. This is who they are and what they have been for the past 5000 years. They won’t change that for you or Pakistan or Afghanistan when it comes to it.
People are playing God with peoples lives here, they forget, they are not Gods. They are mortals who can and will face consequences.
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*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Yes, lets compeletly forget the role of ISI after 1992 in intefering with internal affairs of Afghanistan.
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whoa lemme get it straight, did the govt not ask the tribesman to hand over these ppl like acchay bacchay? there was no action from the FATA folks in response
If in these gunfights, it is proven that these tribals were providing shelter to foriegn fighters, then they need some major thapraakh-cheeni and kaan-marrori
it also appears that the soliders were fired upon, so its not like big bad military machine is harassing innocent bystanders.
as I have said before, they tribals should behave, be acchay bacchay, use their brains for a change and hand over the foriegn fighters as asked, or be ready to receive some chitrol.
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Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, **nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. **Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection."
Who says they are bad guys? Talibans can live how they want in their tribal belts as long as it doesn't impact the rest of Pakistan negatively. Let me repeat, we have no intention of letting our country become a stone age country of hicks on account of Wahabi ideology. Not while Saudis are driving mercs and shopping in M&S themselves. That's why I won't take OBL seriously until he takes his fight to Jeddah.
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After U.S. troops entered Saudi Arabia and its neighboring country, Kuwait, in August 1990, to begin Operation Desert Storm against Iraq, **bin Laden's outrage came to a head, and he became even more outspoken about his anger with the Fahds. **Bin Laden saw the U.S. as solely concerned with safeguarding their oil interests in the Middle East, and believed that once they were allowed in, they would never leave. He hated to see a non-Muslim power threaten the Muslim stronghold of Iraq, and feared that the Arabian Peninsula would eventually be used by the U.S. as a staging area to protect Israel, the enemy of much of the Arab world. **Because of his outspoken criticism, the Saudi government began putting pressure on bin Laden **and threatened to retaliate by bankrupting his family's company. He was even placed under house arrest in Jedda for a time.
Exactly camouflage. So you see how easy it is to quote hadiths from Allah's apostle talking about protecting the muslims from the oppressor but when push comes to shove ALL muslim governments kick out people like OBL who bring harm to their nation. Including the guardians of the faith and bin Ladens brothers in Wahabism Saudi Arabia.
So anyone who tries to pin Pakistan as 'traitors' for not helping shelter Saudi outlaws can shove it where the sun don't shine.
One MMA politician called what’s happening a mini civil war..
F.P. Report PESHAWAR: As victims of Tuesday’s shootout in the dusty Kalosha village were laid to rest amid tears - and howls against the military operations - hundreds of townsmen fled the area on Wednesday to dodge a new looming crackdown, residents and witnesses said. With latest swoop ratcheting up tension, thousands of people gathered for the burial of the slain “militants,” whose bodies were collected from the Scouts Camp in Wana. The corpses had earlier been taken to the camp, where the authorities wanted to establish their identity. Haunted by the prospect of another operation, weary tribesmen left the remote Kalosha village - the scene of Tuesday’s murderous gun-battle - in droves. “About a hundred families have moved out of the hapless village,” a resident told The Frontier Post by phone from Wana. Naseeb Khan, a college student, said his family was among hundreds of people who moved to Wana and elsewhere. “The people are extremely scared of more raids and attacks in the wake of yesterday’s fierce clashes that left at least 39 dead and dozens wounded,” he added. Leaving the village were old men, women and children on tractors and trucks, as the roads were still littered with blackened wrecks of military vehicles. Smoke was still billowing from some vehicle parts scattered all over the place. Official sources, meanwhile, suggested a fresh offensive could be launched anytime to capture alien terrorists and their local collaborators. They revealed reinforcements, including a large number of troops and four helicopters, were rushed to the area in the evening. “The two missing political naib tehsildars of Wana and Birmal - Mir Nawaz Marwat and Matiullah - are yet to be traced,” they said, believing the officials had been taken hostage or killed in the heavy gunfire. The naib tehsildars had gone to Kalosha to plead with residents for surrendering the wanted aliens and the tribesmen hosting them. An unconfirmed report, however, said the officials had been captured by tribesmen, who had conveyed to the political administration their conditions for the freedom of the missing duo. The tribesmen are believed to have sought the release of kinsmen in return for the officials. But sources in the political administration said no such message had been received as yet, adding negotiations with the tribal elders would be held later on. They gave no time frame for the talks, but a resident said a jirga could be convened soon for the recovery of the two. According to the villager, 12 paramilitary troops had also been kidnapped. Frontierpost
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*Originally posted by Malik73: *
The Afghan jihad ended in 1992 when the Russian puppet Najibullah was overthrown, so why did these foreign jihadis remain in the region if not to cause trouble? They preceded to aid the various competing groups in Afghanistan in plunging that country into civil war, and probaby want the same in Pakistan.
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Either you are damn naive or you regard all interlocutors here as damn stupid.
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That must never be allowed to happen, and the Pakistani army must crush them with the full force, and at the same time the FATA region must finally be dragged into the 21st century.
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Forget FATA, first bring Lahore into the 21st centruy.
Originally posted by camouflage: *
**Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, *
the reign of terror of OBL and other assorted psychos like him is defacto oppression of people, and it is more than just that, it is murder of people. If i recall correctly there are plenty of hadeeth saying that thats a big No No.
*nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. *
2 points
1) one would have to define an oppressor - some stalwarts OBl-ites could make the case that even handing him to any court in the world is handing him to oppressors. The guy has been responsible for targetted and planned killing of innocent civilians and needs to pay for his deeds.
Why did the foreign jihadi's not leave Afghanistan, and go back to their own countries when the Afghan jihad ended in 1992? What business did they have remaining in the country, if not to cause trouble there, which they did by taking an active part in the ensuing civil war. Pakistan tried many, many times after 1992 to unite the Afghan groups, and bring stability to the country. Granted not all of those efforts bore fruit, and we made some mistakes based on the trust we had in some of these groups, but which they ended up abusing.
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
lesson two- pakistanis should grow up, stop supporting extremists and look at the realities of the world.
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Pakistanis have never supported these religious elements, they have never been the followers of mullah's Islam. Everybody knows who inflicted these germs of religious extremism and intolerance in this country. The whole nation is reaping what the army sowed in the last 25 years. The main problem is army and its lackeys.
Shawaiz, that's a cop out answer. Whatever the army has or hasn't done in the past can't account for the fact that FATA have their own laws to suit their own tribal mindset. No one has forced these backward views in those places except themselves. Try all these Jamaats or MMA if you want to point fingers.
Pakistanis have never supported these religious elements, they have never been the followers of mullah's Islam. Everybody knows who inflicted these germs of religious extremism and intolerance in this country. The whole nation is reaping what the army sowed in the last 25 years. The main problem is army and its lackeys.
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okay so lets get this straight, if we go by your statments here then our mullahs are also army lackeys.
additionally, what about the pre-partition mullahs, there was no pak army then, who do we blame them on :)
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
okay so lets get this straight, if we go by your statments here then our mullahs are also army lackeys.
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Most of these mullah organizations are the creature of the army and most of them are army lackeys. It's quite true.
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additionally, what about the pre-partition mullahs, there was no pak army then, who do we blame them on :)
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Are you talkign about those mullahs who opposed the creation of Pakitan? ok ,then how many people of the region what is now Pakistan followed them.
There is a huge difference b/w mullah and a mullah terrorists organizatins like jhangvi, sipah e sahaba.
You hate germs and I hate more those who transmited these germs in our society.