Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
as if there are no dacoities nowadays, try another large-family-fed-bongi.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
I have read sometime ago ...cia also did some hankypanky for some old presidents (nixon may be?)
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
No, theres been none, alhamdulillah, not even once, the only time it happened ever since they've lived there was during BB and Nawaz's era and as yet nothing after that, so that bongi of yours goes straight into the joke/dunce forum. As for your cell phone snatching anecdote, maybe that didnt happen back in that era because:
a) not alot of people had cell phones back then, it was expensive as hell, so the common theif unlike today (whose sure anyone who robs will be carrying a cell phone, since every mai ka laal has one these days), wouldnt bother with that. The fact that we have chotey motey chors out on the street just shows they are having a hard time robbing people at homes.
b) all cell phone companies were asked to suspend services in karachi, even the payphones were disabled on orders of the government, so there you go chanda, there were literally no cell phones back then for your hypothetical chors to snatch.
Karachi is ALOT better now, its a fact. The civilian governments of tindal and bb failed miserably. People couldnt even do business without thugs showing up forcing them to close their shops at gunpoint. None of that crap happens anymore. I wouldnt praise the government but one thing is for sure, they handled the scenario wisely, rather than going on killing sprees, even though one can argue that had become an absolute necessity. Lastly, even if you were right when you said you guys were fine in the BB, Nawaz era as long as you were sitting at home and no one would bother you... is tarha buzdiloon ki tarha ghar mey kayed rehney me kya achi baat hai, when you cant even step outside, like you can do now in Karachi. I was in Karachi last Dec, was out till 2-3am all the time, but back in the 90s everytime we would go, there was either a curfew imposed or you could hear gunfire.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
Also, if this article made sense, mind explaining why the army first rigs the poll to let an anti-army aunty become the PM, then in the next one bringing an industrialist in power, and then bringing the aunty back and then bringing the ganju back? Sorry to say but such accusations (pointing to the ISI) come only from the indian side.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
your entire focus seems to be around your family only whatever the situation around the city remains you have no idea about. dacoities are at same level if not worse.
[quote]
a) not alot of people had cell phones back then, it was expensive as hell, so the common theif unlike today (whose sure anyone who robs will be carrying a cell phone, since every mai ka laal has one these days), wouldnt bother with that. The fact that we have chotey motey chors out on the street just shows they are having a hard time robbing people at homes.
[/quote]
I agree that cell phone thing was not as big then, but you have to remember that a chota mota chor is very different from one who will kill you if you don't have one or resist, its just easier to rob someone on street then going into homes..... hard time robbig people at homes???? why would that be? is that because there are entirely new police/LEA in Karachi? is it because police is responding to dacoity calls? why would there be a difference? There is NO difference from then to now.
[quote]
b) all cell phone companies were asked to suspend services in karachi, even the payphones were disabled on orders of the government, so there you go chanda, there were literally no cell phones back then for your hypothetical chors to snatch.
[/quote]
I already commented about that above.
[quote]
Karachi is ALOT better now, its a fact. The civilian governments of tindal and bb failed miserably. People couldnt even do business without thugs showing up forcing them to close their shops at gunpoint. None of that crap happens anymore. I wouldnt praise the government but one thing is for sure, they handled the scenario wisely, rather than going on killing sprees, even though one can argue that had become an absolute necessity.
[/quote]
Yes there are no more hartaals I agree, a lot of this happened because MQM thugs are in government, kick them out of government and you will see what happens on the street.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
You must be sleep walking thru life then!
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
^ yeah, I am still sleeping.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
One thing I dont understand why we equate dictatorship with Army takeover?
It would have been correct if the regimes of Ayyub Khan, Yahya, Zia and Musharraf were on the same line and following the same policy but they were found to be totally different rather in some cases opposite to each other.
Army never ruled the county, country has been ruled by the individuals and the dictators. Army is an organization comprising more than 500 thousands of individuals.
The dictator only gets the support of few Corps Commander in taking over but again they are just few individuals and not the whole army. I have met many army officers and found almost all of them denouncing the Military people takeover.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
As I've always said professional soldiers, war heroes and dedicated ones have no time for politics or book writing. As far Durranis argument is concerned, its very true..a lot of these manufactured politicians are there to do three things prove that politicians invited the army which is never the case, second to give some legitimacy and thirdly to prove all politicians are corrupt.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
Unfortunately all such "takeover" have come from army with no opposition from within army to such acts and then continued silence. Even when a so called democracy is established, I don't recall any commander voicing against past army takeovers and rulez, or did I miss that?
Re: Army foils democracy for own ‘needs’: ex-ISI Chief
Again most of this is old news cap, Cowasjee wrote about agency involvement in rigging elections and attempting to buy support (two distinctively different things..)
He has been writing about it for ages now..90% of the names of people involved are those who now support Musharraf.
Sunday, January 22, 2006
Take the money and run: Why this prevarication?
Ardeshir Cowasjee
In 1996, Air Marshal Asghar Khan filed a human rights petition in the Supreme Court against General Mirza Aslam Beg, former chief of army staff, Lt General Asad Durrani, former chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence, and Younus Habib of Habib and then Mehran Bank, concerning the criminal distribution of the people’s money for political purposes (HRC 19/96).
During the initial hearing of the petition, General Naseerullah Babar filed in court a copy of a bank account sheet headed “G/L Account. Activity Report. Account 12110101 G. Baig (sic.)” The column heads read “Transaction, Date, Particulars, Debit, Credit.” The numbered transactions took place between October 23 1991 and December 12 1993. The first transaction listed was “Cash-P.O. Karachi Bar Association A/C Gen. Baig (sic.), debit, 5,05,680” (advocate Mirza Adil Beg, Aslam Beg’s nephew, the then president of the KBA, confirms that the KBA received the money). In January 1992 USD 20,000 was sold @ 26.50 and 5,30,000 was credited to the account. Thereafter all debits : “Arshi c/o Gen. Baig (sic.) 2,90,000 ; Cash paid to Gen. Shab 2,40,000 ; Cash Friends 1,00,000 [Aslam Beg’s organisation, FRIENDS, Foundation for Research on National Development and Security] ; Cash TT to Yamin to pay Gen. Shab 3,00,000 ; Cash TT to Yamin Habib 12,00,000 ; Cash Friends 1,00,000 ; Cash Friends 1,00,000 ; Cash paid through YH 10,00,000 ; Cash Friends TT to Salim Khan 2,00,000 ; Cash 1,00,000 ; Cash Towards Friends 5,00,000 ; Cash Asif Shah for Benglow 35,000 ; Cash Friends 1,00,000 ; Cash Friends 1,00,000 ; Cash TT through Yamin for Friends 1,00.000 ; Cash paid to Fakhruddin G Ebrahim 2,00,000 [he confirms having received the money from General Beg as fees and expenses for defending him in the contempt of court charge brought against him – PLD 1993 SC310] ; Cash paid through TT to Yamin for Friends ; Cash paid to Fakhruddin G Ebrahim 1,28,640 [he confirms receipt for fees/expenses for contempt case] ; Cash Guards at 11-A 10,500 ; Cash TT for USD 240,000 Fav. Riaz Malik to City Bank (sic.) New York 68,76,000 ; Cash Friends 1,00,000; Cash Guards at 11-A 10,500 ; Cash Mjr. Kiyani 10,000; Cash mobile phone for Col. Mashadi 28,911 ; Cash TT fav. Qazi Iqbal and M Guddul 3,00,000 ; Cash Mjr. Kiyani 10,000 ; Cash TT to Peshawar 3,00,000 ; Cash deposited at Karachi A/C EC [Election Commission] 3,00,000 ; Cash Guards 24,000 ; Cash TT to Quetta 7,00,000 ; Cash mobile bill of Col. Mashadi 3,237 ; Cash TT to Peshawar Br. 4,00,000 ; Cash deposited at Karachi Br. 4,00,000 ; Cash Guards 11,520 ; Cash TT to Peshawar for EC 2,00,000 ; Cash TT to Quetta for EC 2,00,000 ; Cash Guards 5,760 ; Cash Mjr. Kiyani 5,000 ; Cash A/C Guards 8,640 ; Cash th. YH 2,00,000 ; Cash A/C Guards 5,760 ; Cash TT to Salim Khan 1,00,000.”
An elite host of other political figures who received funds from an ISI account were revealed in the Supreme Court whilst the petition was being heard. Inter alia, Nawaz Sharif received (in rupees) 3.5 million, Lt General Rafaqat [of President Ghulam Ishaq Khan’s election cell] 5.6 million, Mir Afzal 10 million, Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi 5 million, Jam Sadiq Ali 5 million, Mohammed Khan Junejo 2.5 million, Pir Pagaro 2 million, Abdul Hafeez Pirzada Rs.3 million, Yusuf Haroon 5 million [he confirms having received this for Altaf Hussain of the MQM], Muzaffar Hussain Shah 0.3 million, Abida Hussain 1 million, Humayun Marri 5.4 million. Aslam Beg, under oath, revealed the existence of a political cell within the ISI, whilst strangely clarifying that though he was aware of the distribution of funds he was never personally involved.
Further names of anti-PPP politicians who received payments from the ISI during the run-up to the 1990 elections rigged in favour of the IJI and Nawaz Sharif were later revealed : Jamaat-i-Islami Rs.5 million; Altaf Hussain Qureshi and Mustafa Sadiq Rs.0.5 million ; Arbab Ghulam Aftab Rs.0.3 million ; Pir Noor Mohammad Shah Rs.0.3 million ; Arbab Faiz Mohammad Rs.0.3 million ; Arbab Ghulam Habib Rs.0.2 million ; Ismail Rahu Rs.0.2 million ; Liaquat Baloch Rs.1.5 million ; Jam Yusuf Rs.0.75 million; Nadir Magsi Rs. 1 million ; Ghulam Ali Nizamani Rs.0.3 million ; Ali Akbar Nizamani Rs. 0.3 million.
Yet more payments were uncovered: During the Mehrangate investigations of 1993 which led up to the Supreme Court case, Younas Habib of HBL/MBL, as per his statement filed in court, (recorded at Karachi under section 161 Cr.P.C) disclosed that the following political and other pay-offs were made between 1991 and 1994 : “General Mirza Aslam Beg Rs.140 million ; Jam Sadiq Ali (the then chief minister of Sindh), Rs.70 million ; Altaf Hussain (MQM) Rs.20 million, Advocate Yousaf Memon ( for disbursement to Javed Hashmi MNA and others) Rs.50 million ; 1992 - Jam Sadiq Ali, Rs.150 million ; 1993 - Liaquat Jatoi Rs .01 million ; 1993 - Chief minister of Sindh, through Imtiaz Sheikh Rs.12 million; Afaq of the MQM Rs.0.5 million ; 1993 Chief chief minister of Sindh, through Imtiaz Sheikh, Rs. 01. million ; 1993 - Ajmal Khan, a former federal minister, Rs.1.4 million ; 1993 - Nawaz Sharif, former prime minister, Rs.3.5 million ; 27/9/93 Nawaz Sharif, former prime minister, Rs.2.5 million ; 26/9/93 Jam Mashooq Rs.0.5 million ; 26/9/93 Dost Mohammad Faizi Rs. 1 million ; Jam Haider Rs. 2 million ; Jam Mashooq Rs. 3 million ; Adnan, son of Sartaz Aziz, Rs. 1 million ; Nawaz Sharif and Ittefaq Group of Companies Rs.200 million (photocopies of cheques and deposit slips etc already attached with affidavit at page nos. 42 to 73) ; Sardar Farooq Leghari 12/12/93 (payment set/off) Rs.30 million - 6/1/94 Rs.2.0856 million - 19/3/94 Rs.1.92 million.”
Three further payments were recorded : YH TT Peshawar A/c Sherpao for Election 5,00,000 ; Anwar Saifullah for MBL deposit 15,00,000 ; Farooq Leghari PO issued 1,50,00,000, another 1,50,00,000 paid through Bank.
The last hearing of the case was on October 11 1999, one day before the army, under General Pervez Musharraf, had little option but to overthrew the ‘heavily mandated’ Nawaz Sharif government, when the sitting chief justice, Saiduzzaman Siddiqui, announced that he had reserved judgment on the ISI case.
Before he could write his judgment, General Babar saw him in chambers and prevailed upon him to send notice to and examine Farooq Ahmad Khan Leghari and others mentioned on the lists before announcing his judgment. In the interest of justice, the CJ ordered that the desired notices be issued.
Thereafter, the case was apparently ‘morgued’. Asghar on several occasions reminded Saiduzzaman’s successor, the new chief justice, Irshad Hasan Khan (who after retirement was appointed chief election commissioner to ‘supervise’ the 2002 elections), and requested him to take up the case but he received no response. Justice Khan was far too busy attending to more vital affairs.
On August 10 2002, Asghar addressed a letter to the succeeding Chief Justice of Pakistan Sheikh Riaz Ahmad, its subject “HRC No.19/96, Air Marshal (R) Mohammad Asghar Khan versus General (R) Mirza Aslam Beg.” It reads : “I should like to draw you attention to my letter MAK/12/5 addressed to your predecessor on 8 April 2000 requesting that the above case may please be reopened. I have received no reply to this letter and elections are due on 10 October 2002. Many of the people who are guilty of misconduct will, if the case is not heard, be taking part in the elections and the purpose of those elections will thus be defeated. I would request an early hearing and decision in this case.” There was no response. Justice slept.
Many of the people guilty of gross misconduct and of, in fact, corruption, did take part in the elections and are now sitting in our assemblies and the most honourable Senate. President General Pervez Musharraf himself admitted after the 2002 elections that he was helpless before the ‘system’, the parliamentary form of governance, and presumably a dishonest and corrupted election commission. He told the people that he had no option but to have in his government rogues, robbers and other criminal elements who should rightly be behind bars.
The point of now repeating all this – which has been written on several occasions prior to the last elections, is that we have scheduled elections, supposedly of the free and fair kind, coming up in 2007. Our new Chief Justice of Pakistan, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, has so far proved himself to be a conscientious and pro-active chief justice who carries the cause of justice in all departments firmly in his mind. When I met that indefatigable warrior, Asghar Khan, recently, I suggested to him, and he agreed, that he should approach Chief Justice Chaudhry and ask that his petition be revived and heard – truly in the larger national interest – so that come the next round of elections the ISI (or any other sinister organization which may in the meantime be rigged up) may be restrained from any activity relating to the elections, those people who have been deemed to be corrupt may be barred from standing for election, and the election commission may be thoroughly cleaned up and then be given full charge of holding the elections free from any interference.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
The best way to clip the Pak Armys wings are by making peace with India.
Just freeze the Kashmir issue (for future) and suddenly the army will have no reason to continue to rule the country & take the lions share of Pak economy, govern & influence all sectors in the name of national interest (ie their own interest).
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
Just freeze the Kashmir issue (for future) and suddenly the army will have no reason to continue to rule the country & take the lions share of Pak economy, govern & influence all sectors in the name of national interest (ie their own interest).
Exactly why there will never be a full peace settlement, as long as Pakistan exists
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
For all those are against the Army being involved in politics should realize this is inevitable when your civilian political parties all run armed wings. Is our civilian government really a civilian government. Naturally in an environment like this the Army MUST reign supreme, the day when civilian armed wings become more powerful then the armed institutions of the country there will be no Pakistan. So before calling for a civilian setup ensure it really is civilian and does not utilize extra-judicial means for its own purpose.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
I am all for complete unarming of civilians, if that means no military intervention. But remember, all the interventions in the government have not been a result of civilian governments dada-geeri based on their armed possessions... rather excuses like "corruption" etc.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
Corruption usually runs rampant when the civilian administration can bend the politics by means other than the consitution and legal structure of the country. Take MQM for instance, Altaf bhai would not be or remain in politics had Karachi not been under the gun of MQM. Surely, civilians unarming armed civilians would result in civil war. Any political party having a armed and student wing should be ousted from politics. Unless we change the very structure of politics in our country, discussing who is right and who is wrong is a ludicrous debate.
Re: Army foils democracy for own ‘needs’: ex-ISI Chief
The problem is that even army dictators have not worked towards taking away arms from political parties, instead they have supplied arms and support to a party in order to break the control of another party in an area i.e. MQM created in 80s, then MQM Haqiqi created in 90s etc. I would have supported army take-overs if they were sincere, if they were working towards evolution of democratic setup… but all they do is make a drama list of what they will fix in earlier part of their career, do some short stunts and prove their efficiency then they go back to the ways of extending their power… resulting in going back to same position.
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
Good point, those who support dictatorship and criticise democracy, ignore the fact that the Army does the same as the politcians they criticise, many times even worse
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
well said
no matter how corrupt politicians are they do have some accountibility, the next government put them in jail and most of them have to abscond but there is never any accountibility for the military dictators and even their sons become industrialist and politicians, Ayub khan was by far the best of all the dictators but within 2 years after his departure the country lost its eastern half. When Army rules there is great dissent among the smaller provinces.
This government is no exception
Re: Army foils democracy for own 'needs': ex-ISI Chief
Symk, Captain1 and RealDeal:
The military not matter how corrupt keeps the country instead of selling it off in the name of democracy. When we have a civilian government capable of bringing about positive change and control then your arguments will have some weight. Yes, military personnel are not subject to accountability As civilians are however show me where do the civilian figures in Pakistan get accountability. If you had ever lived in Pakistan or Karachi for that matter you would understand that our Qom only understands dunda, and that it why military rule keeps finding its way back in politics.
When we have a population that deserves a civilian government I'm sure the army will not stand in the way. This gossip is for people who never see beyond their living rooms or air conditioned cars.