Are we prepared for Y-2 K ?

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Assalam-o-Elekum
I have been residing in US for last six years and working as a physician.The seek and zeal to learn about our religion and our society has brought me to this page. I wanted to see how our brothers and sisters are thinking about diffrent issues of Muslim our society and our life as a whole.

Since I have started viewing this web site, I see some of the brothers writing on diffrent issues of Islam and religion.Let me say that most of these writings are very informative but unfortunately NOT very relevant to our time.
In US and western world every body is talking about the next century.Political leadrs are trying to shape the “new world” according to their own ideas. Scientist are trying to envisage the new world and its new pictures. Technologists are working on Computer and other technology which they will face as a challange into the next century. Social scientists are trying to resolve some of the social and humantarian issues.
Even on religious levels, people are worlking very hard to make the land fertile for their own religion for new generation. Pop John Paul is visiting US now a days. Recently he called the meetings of all pops and religious scholars of all over the world to find out the ways so that christians can enter the new millinium with all preparations.
How apalling is the fact that when we see towards the Muslim Ummah we find that we are stiil figting over the issues which never been resolved for the last 1400 years ago as this time we will be able to convince each others on these issues. We are still divided and fallen apart. Shia, Sunni, Wuhabi, Jaffari, Malki, Shafai and Arabs ,non Arabs, etc. etc.
Just scroll over only the topics of forum this page, you wll have very good idea about what topics our people are writng about and how irrelevant they are.
Forget about this page, just look around the Muslim world as a whole. You will see that our scholars, leaders and policy makers are either unaware of the realities of the new century or do not want to waste their time on these "unimportant issues. You will find that in Muslim populations as a whole, our poverty rate is growing up and litracy rate is falling down.When I look back to last 3 or 4 centuries, this fact of the history kills me right there that we did not produce even a single, even a singe, notable scientists, economist or technologistin last few centuries. Even in this century none of the Muslim country has any notable scientis or noble prize winner (except Pakistan, although even Pakistani do know Dr Abdus Salam or do not recognize him).
The history of last millinium tells us that because of our own mistakes we lost the dignity and glory of being the leader and srongest nation of this world. and have fallen into the well of Zillat and Ruswaie(shame).
But the most unfortunate thing is that we are not learning any lesson from the history even this time and entering into new century without any frame work. And yet we expect that we will survive
How are we going to survive ?
Allah will help us ? WRONG— WRONG---- WRONG. Allah has already said in the Quran several place that if we do not work hard to change our own fate, we should not expect any help from HIM.

[This message has been edited by uicdoc (edited January 27, 1999).]

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-) a lack of sophisticated religious leadership.
-) mutual hatred between the sects of islam.
-) disregarding the teachings of koran, and being extremely low on knowledge.
-) use of islam to induce hatred, killings and bloodshed.

dearest uicdoc,

you posed a question...
" How are we going to survive ?"
hazeefa ben yamaan posed a similar question to prophet muhammad.

-->"stick to the community... stick to the imam!"

the next question you might have thought of, was posed by hazzefa too:

"if there is no community, and there is no imam?"

---> "then leave all the sects! go away from it all, into a jungle.. and if theres nothing to eat.. chew the roots of the trees until you die... but DONT be a part of those sects"

(as seen in bokharis "kitabul fatan")

a little comment on Dr. abdus salam..

he surely was a great personality.

as american physicists reigned supreme, europe put him forth as an answer to the americans, and opportunities led him to one of the greatest discoveries in the field of physics.

Muslims, on the other hand, chased him out of the country.

what i wanted to make clear was that we must not include him to the "sects" of islam we are talking about in this thread.

he belonged to a community which claims to be the follower of the imam,the imam promised by allah through prophet muhammad.

so practically there is NO "muslim" scientist to be seen in modern sciences at all!

vague ideas...
obscure prophecy...
influence...
helplessness....
.....
black jewels...
of insignificance.

[email protected]

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I agree with the thoughts of uicdoc. we should pay more attention to modern science and technology, if we want to survive as nation in next century. But we should not forget our own religion and its teaching as well.

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our own religion and its teachings clearly and repeatedly order us to study science.

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uicdoc
please allow me to write you an email. Its so fascinating and soothing to see that poeple like you, have been wrting on these kinds of topics. I was sick of reading those writings in which poeple like Bukhari, Abdulla, Qasim and Macho man etc etc are doing nothing but fighting with each others over useless and irrelevant things and wasting their own and our time as well.
Please keep on writing.
Allah kare zore qalam aour ziyada.

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Walaikum Salam,

When I first seen this post, I thought it was about the Y2-K computer problem, so I didn't bother reading it through. But I did manage to read it and I thought it was very well written, and you point out some crucial factors and changes necessary for the healthy functioning of our communities. Your ideas are revolutionary.

Its unfortunate that the opposition to ideas like yours is overwhelming. When comparing our own societies to those of the west - the reply often thrown in the face of the one making the comparisons is "how dare you compare us to them, and why should we follow in their path?" And I think the skepticism and lack of trust is understandable, particularly if you evaluate the history of colonialism and present day neo-colonialsm. To actually have your voice heard in the Muslim world and comment on change and progression and revitalization is not acceptable - not unless your making comments with strict allegiance to past norms and practices. When you operate outside of the dictates of the ulama and you transgress their dogma you can lead yourself into serious harm. Its for this reason that I think such ideas of revolutionary change are unrealistic. Not to say that visionaries aren't necessary, in fact we need more. The question than becomes what can we do to encourage the growth and development of our countries within the existing system of acceptablity? How can we play a role and constructively move in the direction of change in light of these turbulent conditions?

In terms of the postings here, I think they are relevant to our times (although I've only been here a short while), I have seen postings on spousal abuse, marriage, racism, challenges facing Pakistan economically, politically and religiously. Some posts are more geared towards one group than others (ie overseas Pakistanis versus Pakistanis living in Paksistan). But in general they are all well intentioned and I think provide an insightful and thoughtful exchange of ideas.

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Fatah
I do not think that reading science and acquiring technology and moving along with other well developed countries, means we will forget our own religion. This will be precisely according to our teachings of Islam. Just think abot that the first word which was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was 'READ". Then it said , 'Read in the name of your RUB......".
How many times in Quran Allah has invited us to explore the the Universe and to explore His Secrets.
How can be a this religion against the science and technology, when Prophet (SAW)
has asked to study and to bear the hardships in life to get the knowledege and even to leave our own country for the sack of the knowledge.
In another places several ahadiths of our Dear Rasool (SAW) reminds us that Education is compulsary to all of us irresepective of our gender ( man or woman) and our age
(young or old).
So getting higher education in any feild, acquiring technology and experience in any aspect is exactly what we should suppose to do. This will help us to excell, to regain our past glory and to lead this world once again.

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But why this emphasis on higher education when 70% are not literate. Let those who want higher education pay for it and get it. State is not going to spend much on education. Why not give priority to primary education?

One more things what about sending students to countries like Russia who offer courses at much cheaper rate. But certainly have a very high standand at least as far as mathematical sciences are concerned.There can be fruiful collaboration with some institutes in China/India/Brazil also. (Pakistani academicians are certainly not against this idea) In other words, there can be cheaper ways to do things.

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I think people are getting confused here. Emphasis is not on higher education but on Education. I agree with uicdoc that the literacy rate of Pakistan and all Muslim countries are very low and in fact it is decreasing day by day.The western world wants us to involve ourselves on minor things and keep on fighting with each other and not pay any attention to imrove ourselves. If we want to fight with them we have to fight with thier own technology. We can not win our battle against Atomic bomb and To Cruises by our tradtional Talwar (swords).

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" If we want to fight with them we have to fight with their own technology. We can not win our battle against Atomic bomb and Tom Cruises by our traditional Talwar (swords)."

I do not know what do you mean by traditional Talwar. Muslims have never won the war because of Talwar or weapons. They have won the war and battle because of their Iman (faith) and firm belief in Islam and in Allah.
In fact this is true for any thing. Battle and wars are not won by weapons and number of soldiers, they are always win by the courage and persistency.
To day if we as a Muslim are weak and suppressed the reason is not that we are not advance scientifically but the reason is that we are not good Muslims, we have no firm belief in Allah and His help, and we are doing lots of wrong thing which is making HIM angry with us and we are losing HIS sympathy and His support.
So if we have to survive to day in this world , we have to please Allah, the almighty, by becoming good Muslims. That is the only way for our survival.

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Assallaamu alaikum,

haqqani, Jazaak'Allaah khair

wassallaamu alaikum

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hiqqani, and Qasim

Have you seen the movie, Raiders of the Lost Arc,? Do you remember the scene when Harrison Ford gets caught in Egypt in the middle of bunch of Arab(Muslim) people who were trying to kill him with their swords.What did he do? He simply takes out his pistol and shoot them.

Thats exactly what happening now a days with the Muslims of all over the world.But we do not learn any lesson from the history.

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hiqqani, and Qasim

Have you seen the movie, Raiders of the Lost Arc,? Do you remember the scene when Harrison Ford gets caught in Egypt in the middle of bunch of Arab(Muslim) people who were trying to kill him with their swords.What did he do? He simply takes out his pistol and shoot them.

Thats exactly what happening now a days with the Muslims of all over the world.But we do not learn any lesson from the history.

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Fatah,

I can't believe what I am reading!! You are quoting a scene from a "movie"!! Of course Harrison Ford shot the man - he was the hero of the film!! In reality, if the Muslims were strong in eemaan, they would have jumped on Harrison Ford and ripped him to pieces for having shot their brother. However, the Muslims today are not strong in eemaan, and that is why the Kuffaar are walking all over us. Have you not heard the saying of the Messenger of Allaah (SAW):

<> [Abu Dawood]

The history of al-Islaam is our history, but it is a pity that more Muslims do not learn from it.

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......And Allaah will remove the fear of you from the hearts of your enemies and will throw 'wahn' (weakness) in your hearts......"

Above are the wordings of Hadith which were qouted. If these were the predictions of Prphet (PBH) the it is bound to happen, then why should we bother to cahnge it any way.
Secondly If Allah will do all these things and if He makes us weak,then why we (the Human ) should be blame for that.

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....And Allaah will remove the fear of you from the hearts of your enemies and will throw 'wahn' (weakness) in your hearts......"

Above are the wordings of Hadith which were qouted. If these were the predictions of Prphet (PBH) the it is bound to happen, then why should we bother to cahnge it any way.
Secondly If Allah will do all these things and if He makes us weak,then why we (the Human ) should be blame for that.

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As-Salaam 'Alaikum,

Fatah,

I don't want to go into too much detail in this thread, as this topic would be more relevant on the Religious page.

However, in answer to your questions:

1) In brief, you need to understand Allaah's Qadr (Predestination) and Qadah (Pre-defined Measurement). This is a lengthy discussion that is perhaps better served on the Religious page.

2) The hadith I quoted is one of many which prophecy the destruction and humiliation of the Muslims. The reason being that they turn away from Allaah (SWT), so Allaah (SWT) turns away from them. Perhaps the following hadith will better explain the reason why the Muslims are weak:

<< Muhammed (SAW) said: "When you deal in interest based transactions, hold on to the tails of cows, become satisfied with agriculture and abandon jihaad, then Allaah will cover you with humiliation, and He will not remove this humiliation from you, until you return to your Deen.">> [Sunan of Abu Dawood]

i.e. when the Muslims become occupied with material gain.

Thus the beginnings of the desired change will only come about by the Muslims returning to their Deen and cultivating themselves and their families upon Islaam - putting into effect the saying of Allaah (SWT):

<> [Sura ar-Ra'd:11]

As I stated, if the Muslims were to look at the history of Islaam, in particular at the time of the Companions (R), we can see clearly that the Companions, who were the best of mankind ever raised, received great bounties from their Lord. Where once they were nomads of the desert, Allaah (SWT) opened up the earth to them and favoured them because they practiced Islaam to the letter, and not because they pursued technological advances. However, as successive generations came, they began to turn away from Islaam and Allaah (SWT) began to remove the honour and status from the Muslims.

As Imaam Maalik (R) said: "The latter part of this Ummah will not be set aright, except by that which set right its first part." i.e. al-Islaam.

[This message has been edited by Abu Muhammed (edited February 08, 1999).]

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Uicdoc
Quite agree with your comments. Actually our genes have grown amune to
any positive thinking and its very much apparent in the state we Muslims
are at present; espercially Pakistanis....nothing seems to work on these!

           The state of our minds is very much evident when one reads the most
           stupid and kids like threads are being passed on and more stupid the
           threads are more the response is from the forum. There is no guidance
           from admin as well, since they are amongst the same crowd. Hence the
           Gupshup forum serves no use but helps idiots to pass on idiotic threads
           and even more idiots enjoy it. Just look at a thread called Favourite Song!
           how more stupid can one get...writing some songs in full and saying how
           about folks this is my favourite song! theere are more than 40 folks on the
           thread...thats a good use of time by these Pakistanis, they remind me of
           lost kids on Bombay street singing their sorrows away.
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S Malik,

Sorry mate, you've lost me there!! What r u going on about??

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S Malik,

Sorry mate, you've lost me there!! What r u going on about?? Have u accidently posted this to the wrong thread?? Methinks that u have.