Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Lifestyle Relationships
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I was reading a book on control theories in criminology and it had some interesting ideas…

It stated that human beings if left to their own devices would commit crime after crime like the Lord and the Flies theory…

Human beings need to be controlled and given deterrents…so for instance one is more likely to commit adultery than they are to steal…in terms of stealing costs may outweigh the gains…jail may be more of a deterrent than simply losing your missus…so the idea is that we as human beings tend to operate on fear…and if we feel we can get away with something however bad it is we would do it…so on holiday a man may cheat more easily as there is no deterrent…

So are human beings actually moral etc or are they just more scared of consequences than others?..

Another interesting theory that was raised is that a genuinely religious society would bring about accountability and fear thus reducing crime…so the idea that heaven and hell exist and god is always watching you so that is a siginficantly big deterrent to commit crimes…so you wouldnt steal cos even if you got away with it in this life you wouldnt in the hereafter…

Just curious what people thought of this analysis of human nature…

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Well, if we are to go by the Adam and Eve theory...humans are prone to temptation...even if living in what might be considered an idyllic situation...

My personal opinion is that without religion and law, there would be social anarchy...every individual would have a personal theory/take on right and wrong and getting people to agree on anything would be nigh on impossible...

Even now with religion, people are still debating on the basics...! So, my personal opinion: in order to achieve even a remotely harmonious society, order and control of some kind is tantamount...

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

the name of the book ?

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Downes and Rock - Understanding Deviance...

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Just think about how babies are....they conform to nature...which I think by nature human beings are good. When babies observe us adults, they pick up things like lying, cheating, bullying etc. Yes we do have a defense mechanism within us that allows us to retalliate and we do have inherent selfishness, ego etc but these can all be dormant qualities if we so wish. So its our upbringing which determines which of our qualities we will portray later on in our lives.

As for the religion instilling fear and accountability...I do know there are religious people who commit crimes and sins...so the fear aspect does not really work does it? In an instance, a lady who used to lie got caught out and when I confronted her, she said...I am a Christo...I go to church...I cannot lie! I cannot lie being a lie in itself. What a load of....

should i.......:hinna:
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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

if we were not naturally bad we wundt need a police force for every nation

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Hello! Pls re-read...

We do have the potential to be bad...but what determines is how we bring out our qualities...and our upbringing/circumstances. And we do have potential to revert to good. Of course we cant all be good...then God/religious leaders would be dispensable right!

should i.......:hinna:
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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Agree, humans need to be controlled.

should i.......:hinna:
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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Hi
In my views everyone is having some bad & some good character this is the only balance between two which needs to be mentioned extreme of any is bad ....

pɐǝɹɥʇ puɐʇspɐǝɥ ǝɥʇ
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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Hmmm...extreme of good is bad...?

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Aly Sam...
Isnt it the other way round?...As in we are born bad or fallible however you want to put it but what decides what we do with our corrupt desires is our value systems...

So say a religious society which constantly pushes the idea that you will be punished for sins you commit in your afterlife even if you evade authorities is enough of a deterrent if you actually believe in that principle...and even in law and order the fact that say an adulterer can be stoned to death in say an Arab country would be enough of a deterrent in comparison to the west where adultery isnt even a crime...

Im just suggesting that consequences determine our actions...if costs outweigh gains then you wont do it...if there is a lack of law enforcement in an area you will see more crime...cos people can act upon their desires...or in freedom based society as we have today you will try and get away with it...

We are bad people but thats the nature of human being...we need to be controlled and scared to act correctly...

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

NBN...
I believe in Innocent Until Proven Guilty and therefore...we are born with inherent good.

Religion instilling fear to keep away from sin...well it can work in some instances, and also works the opposite in others....at some point people can become immune to the fear. Like when I threaten my daughter with punishment...after some time she herself came to me and told he...ami here take away my book/tv time. So do I think of bigger more fearful things to threaten her with (ie take the same road as religion has?) At some point I felt its better and more permanent (yet difficult) to reason with her. And I know it will work...why...cos she has intelligence common sense and decency (which she and all of us were born with)

Punishment has become norm for us bcos society has deviated from its essence and become selfish greedy proud avenging. Why? Well take your example of stoning. Yes it does deter adultery...but observe in time there will be not less adultery but better ways of hiding adultery. So in time you are allowing a cleverer breed of adulterer to evolve. And now to think of a more fitting punishment.

Humans have and need desires to drive us...but what we lack as a balancing feature is contentment.

We are all good (you too Naughty...) and we can all make an effort to try out the reasoning process in small baby steps and we can get there. I am truly fallible and have done much wrong...but I dont believe I was born that way. Maybe this thread will jump start the changes I always wanted in me.

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

people may not be 'born bad', to do unethical things, but environment is indeed very potent in getting the worst out of the people.

-- Keep your freinds alive in your memories!!! ...
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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Interesting question and welcome back.

I think good and bad are subjective words. We look at the wild world and see lions jump on other animals and eat them. Lions fights between them to mate. We don't consider it as bad; we consider it as natural. Lion is a symbol of bravery. Weak animals who have to hide and eat leftovers from others are looked down upon. Hyenas, etc.

In many human cultures slavery, torture, incest were normal behaviors. In different times and cultures, morality had different definitions. To me, morality is an evolutionary learned behavior not an instinctive quality. I seriously doubt that if left to their own devices, humans would commit crime after crime. In the wild, prevailing law of the jungle may be cruel but not chaotic; it has a strong order letting different species live in harmony.

If I compare this to the human world, on a macro level I see the same application of the law of the jungle and the survival of the fittest. You will see similar Lions and Hyenas in the society. We are not naturally bad, we are fittest.

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The bold part...excellent point and totally agreed.

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Aly Sam and WitchDr...
Interesting points all round...
Survival of the fittest was mentioned...in the jungle the idea of costs outweigh gains and deterrance still ring true...fear still runs through and that is why the jungle isnt chaotic its just people judging again whether they can get away with something...
So say if there is prey around...if hes with friends the lion is less likely to attack than when the creature is on its own...in the same way as a hyena you cant enact whatever desires you have cos of fear...some animals just live in fear that they could be the next to be eaten...

So nature i think determines that we want to do certain things good or bad...it is law and order, culture and belief which determine how we confront these things...

So a personal question...is there not someone you would kill if there was absolutely no consequence whatsoever either here or in the herafter...

In London we have teens shooting up each other in south london...to them they have little to lose cos they have no incentives and thus costs dont outweigh gains...if they had family around, education, job. kids then they might think differently...

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

NBN...
Unfortunately I have been victim of violent no punishment would have been enough for those men. I would have wantd them to experience the fear anger helplessness i and my family felt.
So I am not a dreamer or a romantic person. I am practical, but i do belive we can work on the good or reasonable side of people...esp by bringing up the next generation in a sensible and decent manner. Also if you and i can make a change in attitude ourselves, it would be the first step ever.

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

Firstly im really sorry that you have had some bad experiences...
So in terms of bringing up kids in a decent manner today...its about making costs outweigh gains for them...i think we are all capable of the same depravity...its just circumstances and values which stop us...so for improvement in youth we have to make them feel they have something to lose...i for one have my mother, im at uni, iv watched Oz so am scared of prison, i work, and probably most importantly i know Allah is watching me so even if costs outweigh gains in this life i will get my comeuppance later on...

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Re: Are we naturally bad?...Do we need to be controlled?...

making religion a shield is a good thing, granted that everyone is covered under it!

good and bad is in everybody.

life situations, however are not always lending people to remain good all the time.

yet, being trusting, faith in Almighty is unquestionably a respite.

but, the will power is also given by the same Almighty, to practice fairness, to own up to one's actions and to improve one's life as well as others, without controlling or being controlled.

tricky, but possible.

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i liked the points of witch DR the most, it's very well said
let's say, we all use our intelligence in a different way...some may commit crimes, and others avoid it in order to be fittest....it' a choice! and also as some sugested a consequence of education!
i was raised in a moral family, so i am very ethical person myself, but i know lots of people around who have not so moral parents, and behave, in an manner that lacks morality in many respect: lies, cheating, unfaithfullness, no repsect of driving laws, no help to elders, no hospitality, etc....
those "bad"people are very common unfair people, who do not like charity, and pursue only ego satisfaction...these are not uncommon, and usually are just the offsring of similar parents....i don't think it's genetic, but as someone said, babies takes up the ways of their parents!