Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

The following ayah is appropriate and will suffice for your answer

And let not those who disbelieve think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement. [3:178]

  1. Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (AS) will decent from Heaven to Damascus (Syria) according to the blessed ahadith. He will not be implementing any new shariyah. Why is coming back? That is the Will of Allah Almighty according to the Blessed Prophet (saw) ahadith. Why? If you have problem with that then ask Allah Almighty why is ) Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (AS) back again.

  2. Allow me to turn tables against you, Do you believe that Islam is complete? If so, why did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claim to be Mahdi/Messiah/Krishna/Buddha/and whatnot?

Do you claim that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came to complete Islam?

  1. Muslims believe that Islam is complete – nothing new can be added and nothing that exists in it can be removed – Islam is what is contained in the Blessed Quran and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (saw). Eminent scholars have codified the practicing of Islam according to the requirements of the Blessed Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) will lead the wayward Muslims to the straight path. Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) will not bring anything new.

The best book is not referred to; the sayings of the Best Prophet (saw) are ignored; the ‘best’ people are divided into sects and some unfortunate ones have opted out following a wannabe prophet/mahdi.

If sugar, suji, oil is there; but recipe of making halwa is missing; rather a recipe for making Kitchery. So results are obvious.

This is another proof the Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is an imposter and a charlatan. His coming and going had no effect rather created another new fitnah of dividing the Ummah and dragging the unfortunate ones out of Islam.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had a vile and vulgar tongue/pen. Blasphemous/Foul-mouthed language use by him is incompatible/irreconcilable to the dignity of a pious person.

You take Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be a prophet/mahdi – note that this vile person not meeting the standards set by Allah Almighty!!!

Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.** [16:125]**

Repel evil by what is best; We know best what they describe. [23:96]

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) (Jesus) and his pious mother Lady Maryum (ra) hold very high status with Allah Almighty. These noble souls do not belong to the Christians.

There is no excuse for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to retaliate in this vile manner even if provoked by Christian missionaries – even to the point if they insulted the Blessed Prophet (saw).

Read from the following link – all references are from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s books. Please don’t jump up and down claiming it to be anti-ahmadiyyah site – indeed it is – look at the vile material and the relevant references from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s writings.

Mirza Ghulam’s Tirade against Jesus Christ(pbuh)

Having read what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has written do you really think that he has escaped wrath of Allah Almighty?

This is typical of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad – He first shoots himself in the foot by making a ‘wild’ claim– then recants at once seeing the response is really negative. He made claim to be a Mahdi and recanted it – made a claim to a nabi and seeing adverse response recanted his claim.

The above is in similar vein trying to wiggle out once having shot himself in the foot.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things. al-Ma`idah 5:54

O men! you are they who stand in need of Allah, and Allah is He Who is the Self-sufficient, the Praised One. [35:15]

Mr. Popat Indeed it is scary - That is why we all must make sure that we follow the commands of the Blessed Quran and sayings and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (saw) for our salvation.

Allah Almighty is free from any need.

If all the Humanity were to follow Allah Almighty's commands and worship Him earnestly - It will make no difference to His Majesty.

If all the Humanity rejects Existence of Allah Almighty - It will make no difference to His Majesty.

The Blessed ayahs I quoted clearly state that.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

lol, Ibn Sadique, you must have got a lot of spare time in hand, thats why you quote every single thing I write. You dont have to do it, if you dont have answer to it. Just relax, its not a battle. We are here to share our beliefs and not let anyone down.

The topic of the thread is if Muslims today are yesterday's Bani Israel ? I say yes, and i said this with reasons on why I believe so. Your task is to tell me that I'm wrong in my reasoning. Instead, what's really been happening till now is you keep bringing Jamaat e Ahmadiyya in the discussion. So, my friend, just relax and talk about whether or not Muslims are acting like jews or not.

As far as some of your questions raised, i'll answer briefly. You dont agree with me? No problem.

I believe Islam to be complete and perfect. Yet, I believe Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (A.S) was the same Messiah and Mahdi whose advent was foretold by Muhammad PBUH. Now, does that change my belief of Islam being complete and perfect? Absolutely not. It needs to be understood that Muhammadi shariya has been compared with Musvi Shariyah. Just like how Allah says in Quran that Musvi shariya was complete and despite that we are aware Allah sent many many prophets in Bani Israel after Musa (AS). Just like this, Muhammadi Shariya is complete, and hence no new law which is not in shariyah can be added or subtracted. Where is the problem then ? How can you accuse me and my jamaat for 'adding' something in Islam when my belief is that nothing can be added and no new law can now come that can abrogate laws of Islam ? Do you not believe the same thing about the coiming of Isa (as)? Upon His coming, He will be in strict accordance to Islam ?

Isa(as) coming will be to tell believers where they differed. His will be the last word about whats right. He will be hakam adal. He will be the deciding authority. But know this for a fact, he will be rejected by people like you either way. Islam is complete.. how dare he tell us something that is not our belief? OR If Islam is complete and hes telling us everything that we believe in.. why is there even a need to believe him ? and vice versa. I guess i'll stop here. So, please.. before saying Islam is complete, recheck your own beliefs and tell me what function will Isa(as) perform ? what is the need of His coming ?

As far as what you said about Muhammad PBUH completing and fulfilling His mission in His lifetime and Hz Ahmad(as) not doing so is again not intact with your own beliefs (If i say this, then it makes sense, but you saying it doesnt make sense to me). Firstly, Muhammad PBUH migrated from Makkah by Allah's will because His opponents planned on nauzubillah killing Him. Thus, He migrated to Madinah to guard his life. Nothing wrong with that. The khalifa of jamaat had done the same. Now, if you say Muhammad PBUH has completed his mission, then are you saying just coming back to Makkah was fulfilling his mission? Reverting people to Islam is fulfilling mission ? because according to you, it will be ISA(AS) who will come and revert everyone to Islam and whosoever will not believe will be killed by Him.

Also, mind you, jamaat had started in Qadian and not in Rabwah. Our khalifa goes to Qadian and we have jalsa there every year. Keep in mind that prophets, when say something does not necessarily mean they will fulfill that prophecy, but rather if their ummah fulfills their prophecy, its counted as a prophet's truthfulness. For example, Moses A.S died before he could gather Bani Israel to the promised land. His ummah was seen as going to the promised land, hence proving Mosa (as)'s truthfulness.

What else.. oh, you wrote a lot about the population of Ahmadis. Hz Mirza Tahir ahmad(r.a) might have said a wrong number about ahmadis. I do not have the quote for that. But so what ? you know what the problem is with you Ibn Sadique ? You are very quick at picking just about anything. Lets go back in history. Muhammad PBUH who is the greatest of all prophets according to you and to me. Did you know there were many times when He said one thing and said something else after ? Muhammad PBUH said to sahabah that they'll do hajj. Upon going to Makkah, opponents sent them back. Muhammad PBUH then says.. when did I say we'll do hajj this year ? Then there was time when Hz Muhammad PBUH declared honey haram on himself, then he was fine with it. He PBUH stopped people from going to graveyard, then he allowed them. He PBUH did not speak against alcohol, then he said its haram. So many other instances.. now that was Holy Prophet PBUH. ( Not sayin theres anything wrong with it, just merely pointing you that it is f..i..n..e to do it ). That was holy prophet. Now there are other instances of khulfa e rashideen as well. But so what ? How does that goes against the truthfulness of someones beliefs ? Same way if Hz Mirza Tahir Ahmad(ra) had said it, its ok, it must have been a mistake, the later khalifa corrected it. How does that make any difference in the beliefs of ahmadiyya which is true Islam ?

Hindus and other religions are excluded. They are not part of Islam, hence automatically absurd. The criteria is Islam. None can now come or claim an independent prophethood and no one can abrogate a single law of Islam. Other religions are automatically out of that criteria , therefore, there population is of no concern. Hz Ahmad(AS) claimed that Allah spoke to him. He claimed that he is the same Messiah and Mahdi that Muslims had been waiting for. Had it been a lie, Allah would certainly had the power to stop the jamaat and destroy it. That's my point. Forget about other religions. Islam is the chosen religion by Allah and whoever speaks lie on Allah, Allah never let that person progress in His mission.

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

I couldnt stop myself but to reply to this. Yes, absolutely. Go read some books when Christian missionaries were spreading Christianity in subcontinent by spreading that their Lord is still alive, and this is Muslims belief as well. Do you have any idea how many Muslims were fooled with their propaganda ? where were all the scholars then ? Do you know your own scholars had given up at that time ? Do you know it was Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) who stood up to defend Islam and present the true teachings of Islam by Allah’s help ? They said Isa (as) was alive, Hz Ahmad(as) proved His death from Quran and from Bible.

Hz Ahmad(as) presented a beautiful way of defending Islam. He stated that Jesus known to Christians is a totally different notion than the personality of Isa(as) known to Muslims from Quran. He (as) shut christian missionaries mouth by presenting their concept of who Jesus was according to their own book and beliefs. He stated that such and such person can not be someone from Allah. But the real personality of Isa (AS) is that which is said in Quran.

It’s rather hilarious how you expect a Messiah to not defend the honor of Hz Muhammad PBUH, but you people can go ahead and ‘defend’ it by destroying and burning your own properties. Carry on.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Mr. Popat Well guessed! I really do have a lot of spare time on hand – Hay fever lol.

I am very relaxed having hot coffee – helps clearing the sinuses lol. I know this is not a battle but sharing of views.

I know I don’t have to answer all that you write but then as I said before:

At least this assures you that I do read everything that you write – good or bad - lol

Lol at you – go and re-read your posts – It was you who dragged Jamaat e Ahmadiyya in the discussion claiming that everyone except it is following the path of Bani Israel. I had to show how wrong you are.

If you really want to know what I think – then you missed this post of mine

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

Mr. Popat as I have told you before that you have to broaden your information and not rely on what you are force-fed in indoctrination camps.

Eminent Islamic scholar Rahmatullah Kairanvi (rahimullah) successfully defeated Christian missionaries in debates.

At this time Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was mere 19 years old assuming that he was born in 1835!!!

Please don’t lay the credit of debating and defeating Christian missionaries on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. This is not true.

Read about Rahmatullah Kairanvi (rahimullah)

Debate with Pfander

In 1837 the Church Mission Society appointed Karl Gottlieb Pfander, described by Eugene Stock as “perhaps the greatest of all missionaries to Mohammedans”,[2] to Agra in Northern India, where in 1854 he engaged in a famous public debate with leading Islamic scholars. The main Muslim debater was Kairanawi, being assisted by English-speaking Dr. Muhammad Wazîr Khân.[3] The debate itself went badly for Pfander because Kairanawani used arguments from European theologically critical works, and arguments from the Catholic missionaries in India, who strongly disliked the work of their Protestant colleagues.[4] Pfander was unable to respond to this criticism since his books only responded to the traditional Muslim charges against Christianity and he decided to withdraw from the debate

Rahmatullah Kairanawi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He has written one of the best book destroying Christianity quoting from Bible only
**
IZHAR-UL-HAQ The Truth Revealed**

This book has been used by Sheikh Ahmad Deedat for his debates with Christian scholars

The book can be read online at the following links:

http://www.invitetogod.com/dawah/components/com_booklibrary/ebooks/IzharulHaqMaulanaRahmathullahKairanvi-[InviteToGod.com].pdf

Izhar ul Haqq Maulana Rahmatullah Kairanvi against Christianity

You mean to say the Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani use the blasphemous/Foul-mouthed language against Prophet Isa ibn Maryum (as) and his Blessed mother with Allah Almighty’s help?

True teachings of Islam cannot be presented by blasphemous/Foul-mouthed person!!!

How can you say that Mirza Ghulam ahmad Qadiani “presented a beautiful way of defending Islam”?

Since when has vulgar foul-mouthed language has become beautiful?

Was not Mirza Ghulam ahmad Qadiani aware of the following command Allah Almighty?
*
Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way*.** [16:125]**
*
Repel evil by what is best; We know best what they describe*. [23:96]

How about following ayah:

"Revile not those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance." 6:108

By using foul and vulgar language Mirza Ghulam ahmad Qadiani against Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) and his blessed mother (ra) the Christians retaliated by insulting the Blessed Prophet (saw).

You call that success???

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

So what is it that we disagree on ? Read the last sermon of Hz Muhammad PBUH again. No prophet will come after me and no new faith will be born. Yes, Muhammad PBUH was referring to a new faith that is formed after an independent prophet appears. No new faith will be born now with the law bearing prophet. But, Jesus a.s will come and he will be a prophet. Old OR New is irrelevant. He a.s will come and that is also your belief. You also believe he will NOT bring new faith. I believe exactly the same. So, where do we differ? Its the recognition of the personality of prophet, NOT and i repeat.. NOT the aqeedah itself. You claim Isa A.S to be alive. I say He a.s is dead. Rest of the aqeedah is exactly the same.

Don't quote me hazur's last sermon and then expect me to believe that you dont believe in Isa a.s's coming.. and Him being prophet. Don't try to misguide the mass please. I'm very humbly saying that our aqaid are same, but we differ in the recognition of the prophet that you are also waiting for.

We do know that by the coming of a prophet, new faiths are NOT born. Musvi shariya is a prime example. We do understand from the sermon that Muhammad PBUH was referring to law bearing prophet, which can now never come who can abrogate Islamic Shariyah, as Islam will remain the last and complete religion till qayamah.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Reminds me of the Quranic verse that warned "others" against taking their Rabbis as their lords besides Allah. A muslim follows ONLY the commandments of Allah, and no human being after the passing of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).

I do not seek to prolong this vicious cycle of you said, i said, you believe, i believe. Lets move beyond this. You seem to have struck just one note since joining the thread, which seems to be propogation of your belief. Which is fine. But I'm just saying....do not tell others how they're so wrong. Others could just as easily point to the fallacy of your belief in your Khalifa, and how you literally follow his commandments as the divinely inspired word, Astagfirullah. If you truly believe that, that's you. No quarrels over that. Just keep in mind anything that you associate with Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) and Allah will become witness either for you or against you on the day of judgement.

Please do not feel compelled to reply to this. Let us move forward to others aspects of Today's Ummat-e-Muslima vis a vis Bani Israeel.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

I need to clarify on what you mentioned.
You missed to bold the most important part of my post ' obligated to obey him' but in matters which are in accordance to Quran and hadith! Khalifa does not have any new mission or his own mission. He carry forward a prophet's mission and the true teachings. Just to clear again, when I say divinely inspired, what I meant was that He is chosen by Allah and his mission is the mission of the prophet. It is NO different than khulfa e rashideen. Despite having Holy Prophet PBUH, there were 4 rightly guided khulfa who all Muslims did ba'it on. Again, inspiration that i meant was of such that since He is chosen by Allah to be caliph, we are His helpers to help him spread the mission that he gets from the prophet.

Yes, we are not suppose to take our scholars as Lords like how jews did. This is what we say to you people. Do not be fooled by your scholars telling you such and such is not Muslim, such and such are wajib ul qatl, such and such is the belief regarding Jesus a.s etc.. and you blindly following it without questioning them. We do not do such thing. Khalifa is a man who carry forward the mission of a prophet. We do not blindly follow our scholars. Infact, we r encouraged to ask question and let them know where they are wrong. Such courage of disagreement with your scholars are not found in you. What we see is people saying how can all these scholars be wrong? you therefore, take your scholars words as the final verdict and do not question them and show them how what theyre saying is contradicting with something else.

You also keep in mind that anyone that u associate with Allah will become witness against you. You take Jesus a.s to be alive ( God is also alive ), Jesus to not be eating ( Allah does not eat ), Jesus a.s to have literally raised dead ( Allah says he alone will do it ), Jesus a.s to revert everyone Muslim ( Allah says he guides whomsoever He wishes ) and vice versa. So, you need to see if unintentionally you are not doing shirk.

And yes, lets move on to other aspects of today's Muslim ummah vs Bani Israel.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

Alright, oh righteous standard bearer. May Allah (swt) forgive me all my sins, and guide me to the sirat-e-mustaqeem. Lets move on. Any more posts on "us vs. you" and vise versa will get removed.

Re: Are today's muslims, yesterday's Bani Israeel?

I request to lock this thread as it is heading south and start a new thread on the topic of 'today's muslims and yesterday's bani israel...'. My suggestion is to look up Quran first of all in this context. There is lot to learn for all of us.

Re: Are today’s muslims, yesterday’s Bani Israeel?

JazakAllah for your suggestion, kchugtai. :salute:

InshaAllah we’ll review and clean it of irrelevant material very soon. Lets keep it open in the hope that it goes in the correct direction now.