Are They Muslims?

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Are They Muslims?

Excellent explanation by psyah.

Let me just quote an incident. Once a bedouin, embraced Islam and asked the Prophet, am I a believer. Then, Allaah revealed to Prophet, that he is just told the Shahada and he is a Muslim, for him to be a believer, iman or faith has to still enter his heart.

So logically any of the above mentioned pimps and others who believe in Allaah and the Prophet is a Muslim, yes but Allaah knows the best. But to be a complete believer its different issue.

Overall, i would just say that a person is a Muslim, as s/he is embraced Islam, but the actions followed (i.e. considering the names debated in this thread) are outside the fold of Islam.

Before signing off let me add this verse of the Holy Quran,

046.009YUSUFALI: Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a *Warner open and clear." *

This compliments Code_Red's post

Allaah knows the best.

[hareem01]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@SlaveofAllaah

Excellent explanation by psyah.

Let me just quote an incident. Once a bedouin, embrace Islam and asked the Prophet, am I a Believer. Then, Allaah revealed to Prophet, that he is just told the Shahada and he is a Muslim, for him to be a believer, iman or faith has to still enter his heart.

So logically any of the above mentioned pimps and others by Believe in Allaah and the Prophet is a Muslim, yes about this Allaah knows the best. But to be a complete believer its different issue.

Overall, i would just say that a person is a Muslim, as s/he is embraced Islam, but the actions followed are outside the fold of Islam.

Before signing off let me add this verse of the Holy Quran, this was about the Prophet,

046.009YUSUFALI: Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a *Warner open and clear." *

This compliments Code_Red's post

Allaah knows the best.

thanks and jazakAllah....nice post:)

[Seminole]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@hareem01

Yes, .....but I didn't say ' my version ' of hijab.

No you didn't. That's because you are under the impression that your *version is *the version.

[quote]
Similarly a junky is doing kuffar by rejecting and ignoring Allah's order, it doesn't mean he is a kaafir, as long as he says Shahada(declaration of one God and finality of Prophet Muhammad(SAW)), but when he rejects Oneness of God or End of Prophethood then he's a kaafir.
[/quote]
So one can murder, rape, pillage and torture and not be a kaafir. But so long as he satisfies God's ego by declaring no other is worthy of worship, he's a Muslim.

That goes to show that being Muslim isn't the most important feature or factor when determining someone's righteousness. I'll take a benevolent and altruistic kaafir anyday over a murdering thief that pretends the theory of worshipping one God makes him a better person.

[hareem01]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@Seminole

So one can murder, rape, pillage and torture and not be a kaafir.

Yes, he's not a kaafir, he's a zalim.

@Seminole

But so long as he satisfies God's ego by declaring no other is worthy of worship, he's a Muslim. .

Yes, but it doesn't mean that no one can punish him(for his crimes) in this world and the hereafter.

[USResident]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@psyah

Peace All

Pimping and Killing and the likes can still fall into the category of shirk (without going into detail on this) ... that is what we need to be aware of.

But the initial question was this:

Are they Muslim?

One does not need to be a Muslim to be forgiven. However, the requirement for us humans is that we need to be 'Mutawahidun' - Monotheists i.e. The Opposite of Mushriks.

The Opposite of Mu'min (Believer) is Kaafir (Rejector)

So this means the opposite of Muslim (Submitter) must be Zalim (Aggressor).

I would not like to say that a PIMP is not a zalim, nor would I like to say that a PIMP is a Muslim. However, to be a Muslim simply means one who believes in the heart that Tawhid is the only right system of belief in God, so in this respect a PIMP may be a Muslim in accordance to that definition, but then he/she would still be one who is a Zalim or one who is committing Kufr by unIslamic actions. If a PIMP justifies his/her actions by interpreting the orders of God in such a way that it seems pimping is allowable then this is Shirk, because they have placed their nufs and reasoning above the law of God.

Nice post. However there is one statement I am not clear on its relation to Shirk:

If a PIMP justifies his/her actions by interpreting the orders of God in such a way that it seems pimping is allowable then this is Shirk, because they have placed their nufs and reasoning above the law of God.

Please elaborate?

[Hum_Hain_Lajawab]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@hanibal

I often wondered can these people call them selves muslim???

1) Pimps 2) Frauds 3) Killer 4)Looters

Islam is religion of peace, and it is said in quran that this is the best religion/system given to the best of mankind.

Can a Muslim be a pimp? means can a muslim get in business of trading women bodies for money and lust. i mean will he be remain in the boundries of Islam??? how can he be calling himself a muslim or perceived to be a muslim in the society by the society???

Can he be muslim who kills someone for no good reason, Islam fobid killing as it says who killled an innocent human have killed the enitre humanity. so a killer like that can be called a muslim??? killer of humanity can be a muslim???

Lets think about it!!!

Shirk is the main thing that puts a muslim out of the folds of Islam. Yes they are sins but the thing to also keep in mind is that we do all kinda sinful stuff everyday (not that it's good) but that doesn't necessarily put us out of the folds of Islam. WaAllah Ho Alam :)

For example, when we do sinful stuff (even if it is small), then we are disobeying the order of Allah & His Rasool (S.A.W). Wud that also be called shirk since since we are not doing what Allah told us to?

[hanibal]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@Code_Red

Frankly, it is not our job to judge people :) But sadly we do it often.

The prophet never hated individuals based on their worldly crimes/sins .. instead he preached, trained and taught them to overcome their shortcommings. We are ordered to do the same.

Then whose job it is!

Quran Says; Amr bil'maroof wa na'hi an'il munker
And a hadess explain the above verse even better, stating, whenever u see a bad doing stop it by hand, if u cannot by then call it bad if u still cannot then atleast say it bad in ur heart.

I think ur above statement does not matches the verse and hadith.

let me say that if we mind our own business, and let the killer, pimps and other evil doers be still no procecuted ( by the society) what will society turn into?

a Zani is too be beaten by a wimp 100 times, that is the punishment of a person who do a wrong a thing knowingly.
Hand of Theif should be cut , that another punishment for different sort of crime.

The Prophet also sentenced people on their worldly crimes/sins. that must not be forgotten as well.

The book is out there, it is duty of every person who calls himsefl muslim is to read it, understand it and implement it.

A seven year old kid suppose to pray five times, if not he is told to be punished for that...

should we just close our eyes( just by preaching them) to those woh call them selves MUSLIMS are in involved in crimes which a human cannot commit???

[hanibal]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@USResident

PIMPING or KILLING is a direct crime against humanity and to deal with such things so that the fabric of a human and muslim community is not destroyed, certain limits are in place and excercised to pass judgement on such people when evidence is established. Of course I would say these punitive actions do not have to be the same for all but may vary in severity based on the severity of the crime.

Good point, i' ll come to that later in my concluding reply.

[hanibal]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@psyah

Peace All

Pimping and Killing and the likes can still fall into the category of shirk (without going into detail on this) ... that is what we need to be aware of.

But the initial question was this:

Are they Muslim?

One does not need to be a Muslim to be forgiven. However, the requirement for us humans is that we need to be 'Mutawahidun' - Monotheists i.e. The Opposite of Mushriks.

The Opposite of Mu'min (Believer) is Kaafir (Rejector)

So this means the opposite of Muslim (Submitter) must be Zalim (Aggressor).

I would not like to say that a PIMP is not a zalim, nor would I like to say that a PIMP is a Muslim. However, to be a Muslim simply means one who believes in the heart that Tawhid is the only right system of belief in God, so in this respect a PIMP may be a Muslim in accordance to that definition, but then he/she would still be one who is a Zalim or one who is committing Kufr by unIslamic actions. If a PIMP justifies his/her actions by interpreting the orders of God in such a way that it seems pimping is allowable then this is Shirk, because they have placed their nufs and reasoning above the law of God.

Very good post indeed.

[hanibal]

Re: Are They Muslims?

Concluding post from my side,

Islam is not a nation, hence niether do muslims are to be called a nation. Islam is a movement and Muslim is the light-bearer.
The fundamental of this movement is to provide a Perfect Society where mankind can live and florish according a system provided by the Creator.

But what happend is, Muslims were turned into a nation, and like all nations they have all the evils in them, a muslim-killer, a muslim-hooker, a muslim-pimp, a muslim-drug dealer, a muslim-vine seller.

and what happend to that light-bearer, when he said to someone, islam forbids xyz, he is told "but muslims are well-known for these very things."

Islam was there to remove all these evils from the society and what happend that these evil have taken the shelter of Islam instead. Muslims should be the one with the highest moral and ethical values, they must be live example to rest of the mankind.

It reminds me of a hadith which means, a person cannot be a muslim if he harms his neighbour or sleep sound while his neighbour dont even have enough to eat.

doesn't the above hadith itself distinguish between a muslim and non-muslim, and show us mirror, can we tell the first name of our nieghbour?

Muslims were supposed to enlight others, they were suppose to show the path of Allah, and for doing so, they must follow the orders of Allah all-Mighty as well.

In this particular topic i gave examples of PIMPS and killers, lets not talk about them, lets talk about the DECENT MUSLIM SOCIETY.

Interest is strickly forbidden in ISLAM, but how many are their who prefer or go for interest-free economic activities, they fed on interest and pray to Allah 5 times a day. they sell rotten items, and then go to mosque thinking Allah will forgive them for their deeds. SUBHAN ALLAH.

Their is group/cult of muslims, do not believe in THE DAY, but as they were born in muslim family with a muslim tag on, they are MUSLIMS. and no one dare to call tem non-muslims as they have not denounce the Wahdiyanat of Allah, but they sure do not believe in the life after death...

In the End, why the actions of muslims are not measured on the scale of Islamic teaching.

Milawat kernay wala ham maiN say nahi hay! yeh eak hadith kay ilfaaz haiN... and Shayad hi koy muslmaan hoga ju milawaT na kerta ho... what is this. we are kidding around with sayings of Prophet (PBUH) and Commands of Allah and still we are insisting that we are muslims... The best People with the very best system to enlight the world... a joke right?

Magic is Haram, i think it is also declared as SHIRK, but look at our society, AAMIL NAJI, and all those.. just have a look on sunday magazine it full with their ads.
( it reminds me yahoods days of BABUL)

And yet we all are muslims and wonder why are we suppressed? why are we being slaughtered in Iraq and Afghinstan...

[Kikoy]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@psyah

So this means the opposite of Muslim (Submitter) must be Zalim (Aggressor).

I kind of find that is a bit of a harsh word to describe non-muslims. There are as many people of other faiths/beliefs including atheist etc who live life decently and follow the natural laws laid down for all human kind.

So once again I ask how important is "not doing shirk"?

[Kikoy]

Re: Are They Muslims?

I kind of find that is a bit of a harsh word to describe non-muslims. There are as many people of other faiths/beliefs including atheist etc who live life decently and follow the natural laws laid down for all human kind.

So once again I ask how important is "not doing shirk"?

Also,

Lets say for arguments sake we don’t label anyone with any religions or beliefs. We classify all human beings as Abider of Natural Law and Non-Abider of Natural Law. Of course no-one can be full Abider or full Non-Abider…all have various degrees of the “labels.”

Now the pimps murderers etc would score higher on the scale of Non-Abiders. Simply bcos the Natural Law would not promote looting murdering etc.

On the other hand…a person is “non-believer” (as per mainstream definitions) but follows majority of the Natural Laws scores highly on the Abider scale

However if you now revert to the mainstream labels…then the pimp murder has been given a higher rating than the “Zaalim” (who, for all intents and purposes, may be following most of the laws laid down by our Creator)

So how fair are religious requirements/ratings (and this applies to all beliefs)?

[Croquet]

Re: Are They Muslims?

zalim is applied for non muslim, even if they are perfectly decent in human code of conduct because they have done zulm on themselves by not submitting to Allah. Islamic belief is that non muslim if die in without faith are doomed regardless of their apparent good behaviour. just my two cents.

[hareem01]

Re: Are They Muslims?

I kind of find that is a bit of a harsh word to describe non-muslims. There are as many people of other faiths/beliefs including atheist etc who live life decently and follow the natural laws laid down for all human kind.

So once again I ask how important is "not doing shirk"?

Did you bother to read the whole post?

' Zalim ' can be used for a muslim criminal as well as a non muslim criminal.

[psyah]

Re: Are They Muslims?

I kind of find that is a bit of a harsh word to describe non-muslims. There are as many people of other faiths/beliefs including atheist etc who live life decently and follow the natural laws laid down for all human kind.

So once again I ask how important is "not doing shirk"?

Peace aly-sam

Hareem01 is right. And I agree with you Zalim is a harsh word to describe non-Muslims that is why it is not used to desrcibe non-Muslims. It is used to desrcibe 'aggressors' only. Pimps and Killers are aggressors - zalim. I hope this is clear.

[psyah]

Re: Are They Muslims?

@USResident

Nice post. However there is one statement I am not clear on its relation to Shirk:

If a PIMP justifies his/her actions by interpreting the orders of God in such a way that it seems pimping is allowable then this is Shirk, because they have placed their nufs and reasoning above the law of God.

Please elaborate?

Peace USResident

Shrk can come in the following forms with respect to the tenets of Tawhid.

Shrk is negation of one or more of the AlAsmawaSifaat (Names and Attributes) i.e. Allah is Al-Wahd but to believe in more than one God is negation of this.

Shrk in Ruboobiya = Appointing Lordship to other than God
Shrk in Uloohiyya = Appointing Worship to other than God

Shrk also has two main types which are: Apparent Shrk and Hidden Shrk.

Shrk also has a basis for severity based on the intention, which is intentional shrk with high severity and unintentional shrk with lower severity.

Examples:

Ar-Riya (Showing Off) This is when a person improves his worship or good deed in order to impress an audience other than just the Audience of Allah (SWT), this serves the purpose of fueling his own ego. This is a hidden form of shrk as it is unclear as to what basis of intention a given action is being performed.

Also, there is Pride. To be proud is to enjoin on oneself that what belongs only to Allah (SWT). There are hadith saying that pride will prevent people from entering Jannah. Pride is thus shrk in the Attribute of Allah (SWT).

The Prophet (SAW) told the Jews not to worship other than Allah (SWT), they were offended and contended this that they only worship Allah (SWT). The reply given to them was whether they followed the teachings of men who had altered the law of God. They said that they did. Therefore, this is shrk in the Worship of God, by following the changed law of God. This is why democracy is dangerous for the Islamic aqeedah to accept it without condition.

An elderly companion of the Prophet (SAW) had a walking stick that he threw away even after it is deemed as acceptable because he didn’t want to depend on anything other than Allah (SWT).

These are very different forms of shrk examples to simplify I can see some categories that can be drawn:

• O-I > Open -Intentional = Polytheism
• O-U > Open -Unintentional = Outward worship of many persons,
but internally belief in One God, such as hero worship,
Christianity.
• C-I > Concealed -Intentional = Ar-Riya, Pride, etc
• C-U > Concealed -Unintentional = Dependancy in things to perform their function without consciously realizing that they only perform their function due to what ability Allah (SWT) has put in them. For example taking of medicine without the du’a, or thanking doctor for treatment only without thanking Allah (SWT).

There is also evidence that some forms of unintentional concealed shrk will be forgiven, based on the hadith that says to the effect of ‘those who will have never committed shrk will enter Jannah first’ and also the permissibility of using walking sticks, etc. However, those who leave these things for the intention of protecting themselves from shrk will be doing an act of excellence rather than that of requirement. And Allah (SWT) Knows Best.

[Kikoy]

Re: Are They Muslims?

Did you bother to read the whole post?

' Zalim ' can be used for a muslim criminal as well as a non muslim criminal.

@psyah

Peace All

The Opposite of Mu'min (Believer) is Kaafir (Rejector)

So this means the opposite of Muslim (Submitter) must be Zalim (Aggressor).

Hareem you are right in saying the above highlighted in your post...however psyah also mentions any non-submitter (whether criminal or not) is Zalim.

You are very cutting/condescending in many of your responses...very "Non-Abiding to Natural Law" behaviour I must say.

[hareem01]

Re: Are They Muslims?

Hareem

You are very cutting/condescending in many of your responses...very "Non-Abiding to Natural Law" behaviour I must say.

I'm sorry if you feel that way............I'll try to be nice next time inshaAllah.

[hareem01]

Re: Are They Muslims?

Hareem you are right in saying the above highlighted in your post...however psyah also mentions any non-submitter (whether criminal or not) is Zalim. .

A non criminal non muslim is a zalim in this respect that he is commiting a crime against God by commiting shirk.

[Kikoy]

Re: Are They Muslims?

I'm sorry if you feel that way............I'll try to be nice next time inshaAllah.

Wow..Thank You:)