Re: Are They Muslims?
A non criminal non muslim is a zalim in this respect that he is commiting a crime against God by commiting shirk.
Exactly what I understood it as...Therefore is shirk higher crime than murderer? Hence my earlier question - How fair are religious ratings?
Re: Are They Muslims?
Hareem you are right in saying the above highlighted in your post...however psyah also mentions any non-submitter (whether criminal or not) is Zalim.
You are very cutting/condescending in many of your responses...very "Non-Abiding to Natural Law" behaviour I must say.
Peace aly-sam
I apologise if it seems that way to you ... Even though I wrote that the opposite of Muslim is Zalim, i.e. Submitter opposite is Aggressor, I do not say that the absence of one condition mandates the other.
It is quite possible to be neither an Aggressor or a Submitter. This is from the rational perspective.
From the Islamic perspective ... To be a Muslim is to submit in essential belief that God is One, to be a good Muslim is to submit to Allah (SWT) in all of the injunctions over us. Likewise, the zulm of peace-loving non-Muslim is the zulm against him/herself for not accepting Tawhid. I hope this makes things clearer. And Allah (SWT) Knows Best.
Re: Are They Muslims?
Exactly what I understood it as...Therefore is shirk higher crime than murderer? Hence my earlier question - How fair are religious ratings?
Peace aly-sam
Our criteria for fairness should not be based on our feelings or situational norms, they should be accepted as Allah (SWT) has mandated them to be, this is an example of submission to Allah (SWT). If Allah (SWT) is utterly deserving of worship and He is, and if He is utterly deserving to be obeyed, and He is, then how can a murderer not be considered to be doing shrk? (As he would be disobeying the command of God.)
Furthermore, there is evidence from within scripture that tells us that during the act of the crime the criminal is infact committing kufr.
Murder is a crime indeed, but the greater crime is the one does against ones Lord, because that is the status of Allah (SWT) over us.
Re: Are They Muslims?
Murder is a crime indeed, but the greater crime is the one does against ones Lord, because that is the status of Allah (SWT) over us.
Brother, a muslim (someone who submits to God's Will, in peace,) and enters peacefulness (Islam), cannot be a murderer...
Your question should be: "What is God's Will?"
Is it to be acknowledged, or is it for us to be good "citizens" whatever be the religion (do keep in mind that sects are religions within themselves too).
Re: Are They Muslims?
From the Islamic perspective ... To be a Muslim is to submit in essential belief that God is One, to be a good Muslim is to submit to Allah (SWT) in all of the injunctions over us. Likewise, the zulm of peace-loving non-Muslim is the zulm against him/herself for not accepting Tawhid. I hope this makes things clearer. And Allah (SWT) Knows Best.
One does not have to be Muslim to assert the unity or oneness of God. Islam (according to the definitions of non-Muslim scholars) is the last of the monotheistic faiths, so it is ironic that their followers claim to be the only ones to be practicing monotheism.
Re: Are They Muslims?
^ who are those scholars? theres been many monotheistic faiths post Islam, atleast just as monotheistic as Christianity.
Re: Are They Muslims?
One does not have to be Muslim to assert the unity or oneness of God.
No, but when you assert and allege the oneness of God, you become muslim.
Do you believe in Oneness of God? if yes then you are a muslim.
Islam (according to the definitions of non-Muslim scholars) is the last of the monotheistic faiths, so it is ironic that their followers claim to be the only ones to be practicing monotheism.
Which one is the first monotheistic faith?
Re: Are They Muslims?
No, but when you assert and allege the oneness of God, you become muslim.
Do you believe in Oneness of God? if yes then you are a muslim.
I do believe in the oneness of God, but not in the cultural and ritual practices that most Muslims say I must follow to be considered a Muslim.
[quote]
Which one is the first monotheistic faith?
[/quote]
It's debatable, some say Zoroastrianism, others say Judiasm.
Re: Are They Muslims?
^ who are those scholars? theres been many monotheistic faiths post Islam, atleast just as monotheistic as Christianity.
Perhaps I should have said *major *monotheistic faiths. Some would even consider shiism and sunnism as subsequent "faiths".
Re: Are They Muslims?
Peace USResident
Shrk can come in the following forms with respect to the tenets of Tawhid.
Shrk is negation of one or more of the AlAsmawaSifaat (Names and Attributes) i.e. Allah is Al-Wahd but to believe in more than one God is negation of this.
Shrk in Ruboobiya = Appointing Lordship to other than God Shrk in Uloohiyya = Appointing Worship to other than God
Shrk also has two main types which are: Apparent Shrk and Hidden Shrk.
Shrk also has a basis for severity based on the intention, which is intentional shrk with high severity and unintentional shrk with lower severity.
Examples:
Ar-Riya (Showing Off) This is when a person improves his worship or good deed in order to impress an audience other than just the Audience of Allah (SWT), this serves the purpose of fueling his own ego. This is a hidden form of shrk as it is unclear as to what basis of intention a given action is being performed.
Also, there is Pride. To be proud is to enjoin on oneself that what belongs only to Allah (SWT). There are hadith saying that pride will prevent people from entering Jannah. Pride is thus shrk in the Attribute of Allah (SWT).
The Prophet (SAW) told the Jews not to worship other than Allah (SWT), they were offended and contended this that they only worship Allah (SWT). The reply given to them was whether they followed the teachings of men who had altered the law of God. They said that they did. Therefore, this is shrk in the Worship of God, by following the changed law of God. This is why democracy is dangerous for the Islamic aqeedah to accept it without condition.
An elderly companion of the Prophet (SAW) had a walking stick that he threw away even after it is deemed as acceptable because he didn’t want to depend on anything other than Allah (SWT).
These are very different forms of shrk examples to simplify I can see some categories that can be drawn:
• O-I > Open -Intentional = Polytheism • O-U > Open -Unintentional = Outward worship of many persons, but internally belief in One God, such as hero worship, Christianity. • C-I > Concealed -Intentional = Ar-Riya, Pride, etc • C-U > Concealed -Unintentional = Dependancy in things to perform their function without consciously realizing that they only perform their function due to what ability Allah (SWT) has put in them. For example taking of medicine without the du’a, or thanking doctor for treatment only without thanking Allah (SWT).
There is also evidence that some forms of unintentional concealed shrk will be forgiven, based on the hadith that says to the effect of ‘those who will have never committed shrk will enter Jannah first’ and also the permissibility of using walking sticks, etc. However, those who leave these things for the intention of protecting themselves from shrk will be doing an act of excellence rather than that of requirement. And Allah (SWT) Knows Best.
JAK for the post. I think I knew a lot of it already however let me dsecribe it simpler so you can understand where I am coming from:
Shirk - Associate with Allah SWT in his Oneness or worship.
Kufr - To hide the truth when it has become manifest to the you.
Jahil - One to whom the truth has not been made manifest.
Zalim - One who transgresses the limits set by Allah SWT.
Kufr is a form of zulm indeed. The only way I can understand an act of Kufr or Zulm being Shirk is when the trangression is regarding the Unity and Worship of Allah SWT. For instance, when it was made clear to the Pagans of Makkah about the Oneness of Allah SWT by the presence of a messenger of Allah SWT in their midst and they still decided to hide this truth or not believe in it purposely they became Kuffar and their act of hiding it or not believing in it by continuing to worship idols makes them prone to Shirk as well as zaalimoon.
For the sentence I had pointed out, I did not see an act that made it trangress about the worship or oneness of Allah SWT. I did see it as a zulm because someone is transgressing the limits set by Allah SWT but not in worshipping him or associating something else in his oneness. May be by a far-stretched argument we could say that a PIMP worships money and that is most important to him and by that route he is committing shirk. But then again you can find many practicing muslims today who still have a great love for money. So this is a very small form of Shirk by indirection but not a major Shirk. Its definitely a zulm.
Re: Are They Muslims?
I do believe in the oneness of God, but not in the cultural and ritual practices that most Muslims say I must follow to be considered a Muslim.
Well, good to hear that you believe in tawhid.
It's debatable, some say Zoroastrianism, others say Judiasm.
Well, what others say about Abraham(AS)?
Re: Are They Muslims?
Well, good to hear that you believe in tawhid.
No, I believe in God. Again, I don't need Arabic or cultural terms to define that belief. Nor do I need man made pillars to validate my relationship with God.
[quote]
Well, what others say about Abraham(AS)?
[/quote]
He is universally recognized by the 3 Abrahamic faiths as the founding patriarch of the Israelites. 1st by Judiasm, hence the reference to it being the first monotheistic religion.
Re: Are They Muslims?
No, I believe in God. Again, I don't need Arabic or cultural terms to define that belief. Nor do I need man made pillars to validate my relationship with God.
Ok, so what do you know about the God besides that there is only one God?
He is universally recognized by the 3 Abrahamic faiths as the founding patriarch of the Israelites. 1st by Judiasm, hence the reference to it being the first monotheistic religion.
Was Abraham(AS) a believer in one God?
Re: Are They Muslims?
Perhaps I should have said *major *monotheistic faiths. Some would even consider shiism and sunnism as subsequent "faiths".
dunno what your criteria for major is but Sikhism is one counter example to your earlier point.
at any rate, i guess this is on a tangent from the main discussion.
Islam sees itself as a continuation of earlier monotheistic faiths, so when Muslims talk about monotheism it is with the assumption that its the same monotheism of Judaism and whatever was before, including possibly Zoroastrianism. Non-muslim scholars may disagree about whether Islam is actually a continuation, but its really hard to figure on what basis they can claim that.
Re: Are They Muslims?
To PSYAH, USR as usual is considered most important facts and he is covered most of it in the post, as I could see something wrong with the reasonin as i was contemplating which prompted me get the conceptof Shirk right but USR is done my part. Below the quote, i will just provide with 2 egs, during the time of Prophet, but prophet never called it Shirk.
JAK for the post. I think I knew a lot of it already however let me dsecribe it simpler so you can understand where I am coming from:
Shirk - Associate with Allah SWT in his Oneness or worship. Kufr - To hide the truth when it has become manifest to the you. Jahil - One to whom the truth has not been made manifest. Zalim - One who transgresses the limits set by Allah SWT.
Kufr is a form of zulm indeed. The only way I can understand an act of Kufr or Zulm being Shirk is when the trangression is regarding the Unity and Worship of Allah SWT. For instance, when it was made clear to the Pagans of Makkah about the Oneness of Allah SWT by the presence of a messenger of Allah SWT in their midst and they still decided to hide this truth or not believe in it purposely they became Kuffar and their act of hiding it or not believing in it by continuing to worship idols makes them prone to Shirk as well as zaalimoon.
For the sentence I had pointed out, I did not see an act that made it trangress about the worship or oneness of Allah SWT. I did see it as a zulm because someone is transgressing the limits set by Allah SWT but not in worshipping him or associating something else in his oneness. May be by a far-stretched argument we could say that a PIMP worships money and that is most important to him and by that route he is committing shirk. But then again you can find many practicing muslims today who still have a great love for money. So this is a very small form of Shirk by indirection but not a major Shirk. Its definitely a zulm.
Now let me quote coupleof eg, i hope i have cull out if i have to provide authenticity but right now, I am quoting what I can remember.
1) During the time of Prophet, even after the drink was abolished a Sahabi proned to drinking continued this habit, and always was given 40 lashes, but Prophet just said he will leave all this as he believes in and declares There is no god but Allaah and Mohamed is the messenger of Allaah.
Now observing the above history, the Prophet did not tell the sahabi was committing shirk, as we can see he went against Allaah by drinking.
2) While going for prayers one of the lady was raped early in the morning when it was still dark, and could not even identify the face the one who committed this act. Well, the one who could hear the lady cry ran behind the one who committed a crime but unfortunately the one who was at the rescue, was later accussed of raping.
Accordance to the Quran, the one wrongly accussed had to be stoned to death, this was druing the time of Prophet and the judgement was ofcourse passed by the Prophet, but later due to guilt in heart the one who committed the crime appeared in front of the crowd, and confessed his mistake.
Again, i could see no element of shirk here, as it was again againts the Quran, infact Allaah forgave him for his truthfulness.
What i conclude is the thin line between kufr, zulm, and shirk should be well defined, but ofcourse May Allaah bless you and Hamdullillaah you have great art of explaining stuff through analysis.
Re: Are They Muslims?
Brother, a muslim (someone who submits to God's Will, in peace,) and enters peacefulness (Islam), cannot be a murderer...
Your question should be: "What is God's Will?" Is it to be acknowledged, or is it for us to be good "citizens" whatever be the religion (do keep in mind that sects are religions within themselves too).
Peace hypnotix-2000
From the Qur'an and Sunnah it is clear that the term Muslim is used for the basic level of faith and also is the general term used for all those who profess to Islam.
It is God's Will for us to be good citizens, but not without acknowledging Him. Acknowledgement (intention) always precedes the action. If the action is taken without acknowledging Allah (SWT) then it is done in vain as the Qur'an suggests.
So I would say you are right that the importance is given to being good people, but the basic requirement is merely to acknowledge God first. That is why the Shahadah is one of the first things done in become Muslim, because it is a statement of acknowledgement, all deeds done after that point will be or should be intended for the pleasure of the Creator.
Re: Are They Muslims?
By being good "citizens" we are abiding to His Will... our works are wasted by commiting Shirk (la'in ashrakta layaHbaTanna 'amaluk). This does not mean that God will punish us like a tyrant. It means that we have given into our Ego (in any form) and gone against the system, and ruined our own "self". It is one of the most pragmatic statements in the Quran!
pleasure of the Creator.
So we are going to judge God by our standards? Isn't He above all this??
Re: Are They Muslims?
Peace SlaveofAllaah and USResident
This is what I originally wrote:
"If a PIMP justifies his/her actions by interpreting the orders of God in such a way that it seems pimping is allowable then this is Shirk, because they have placed their nufs and reasoning above the law of God."
I am not talking about disobedience to the law, because to the criminal in his heart the law is true but the act is wrong, and through weakness it is done anyway.
Likewise, the one who says he does not pray he is sinful, but if he claims that we do not have to pray then he is committing kufr of the command to pray.
I have tried to base this on those people who obey the scripture knowing that it was changed by man. Likewise, if a person changes the meaning of scripture to suit his own requirements ... is this not a minor form of shirk? The one who pimps knowing it is wrong is sinful ... the one who pimps thinking it permissible is not a Muslim ... in the sense of being a mutawahhid.
Re: Are They Muslims?
By being good "citizens" we are abiding to His Will... our works are wasted by commiting Shirk (la'in ashrakta layaHbaTanna 'amaluk). This does not mean that God will punish us like a tyrant. It means that we have given into our Ego (in any form) and gone against the system, and ruined our own "self". It is one of the most pragmatic statements in the Quran!
So we are going to judge God by our standards? Isn't He above all this??
Peace hypnotix-2000
I think you need to explain yourself.
Re: Are They Muslims?
if people commit sins against Quran and sunnah and they say we dont believe for example
fasting and hajj etc is mentioned in the Quran and a muslim does'nt do it and says i dont believe it to be fard obligatory then he/she is no longer muslim
but if he/she does not do these actions and he/she says it is fard obligatory then he/she is still a muslim