View 1 - Ghusl (Bath) only becomes obligatory after ejaculation
I asked 'Uthman bin 'Affan about a man who engaged in the sexual intercourse with his wife but did not discharge. 'Uthman replied, “He should perform ablution like that for the prayer after washing his private parts.” 'Uthman added, “I heard that from Allah’s Apostle.” I asked 'Ali bin Abi Talib, Az-Zubair bin Al-'Awwam, Talha bin 'Ubaidullah and Ubai bin Ka’b and a gave the same reply. (Abu Aiylub said that he had heard that from Allah’s Apostle ). - Sahih Bukhari (Bab ai Ghusl, Volume 1, Book 5, Number 291)
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
View 2 - Ghusl (Bath) becomes obligatory when the penis and vagina meet
There cropped up a difference of opinion between a group of Muhajirs (Emigrants and a group of Ansar (Helpers) (and the point of dispute was) that the Ansar said: The bath (because of sexual intercourse) becomes obligatory only-when the semen spurts out or ejaculates. But the Muhajirs said: When a man has sexual intercourse (with the woman), a bath becomes obligatory (no matter whether or not there is seminal emission or ejaculation). Abu Musa said: Well, I satisfy you on this (issue). He (Abu Musa, the narrator) said: I got up (and went) to 'A'isha and sought her permission and it was granted, and I said to her: 0 Mother, or Mother of the Faithful, I want to ask you about a matter on which I feel shy. She said : Don't feel shy of asking me about a thing which you can ask your mother, who gave you birth, for I am too your mother. Upon this I said: What makes a bath obligatory for a person ? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory. - Sahih Muslim (Book 3 Number 0684)
'A'isha the wife of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) reported. A person asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) about one who has sexual intercourse with his wife and parts away (without orgasm) whether bathing is obligatory for him. 'A'isha was sitting by him. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I and she (the Mother of the Faithful) do it and then take a bath. - Sahih Muslim (Book Haid 003 Number 0685)
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
So you’re saying one of the Ahadeeth is authentic whilst the other is not (either because the transmitters had a bad memeory or they liked to forge things)? Bare in mind these Ahadeeth are from Bukhari and Muslim, our (so called) most authentic Ahadeeth collections.
Or are they both authentic and it’s perfectly acceptable for things attributed to the Prophet :saw: to contradict each other?
I’m confused, blind faith was so much nicer when I believed everything my Ustaad Ji (Mullah), dad, mom and the Deobandi/Tableeghi Jamaat books they gave me said but I don’t think I’ll ever be able to go back to blind following any sect or religion again.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
So we’re supposed to accept that there are discrepancies in the hadith’s and just live with it?
I don’t know nothing of hadith sciences or any of that stuff so I’m confused as hell.
I’m just assuming both the hadiths are considered authentic, I suppose I should first ask if they are both considered authentic or not???
You talk of fiqhs, how do we know which fiqh to follow and which one is right? Wouldn’t blindly following other than Allaah :swt: and Messenger :saw: be wrong? And anyway I don’t really like the idea of turning a blind eye to discrepancies and leaving all that to Mullahs because at the end of the day we’re all responsible for our own beleifs and actions and will go into our own graves alone.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
^
I've also heard that view, that's why I'm so confused I mean had it been a less known compilation I would have overlooked them because I've not studied hadith sciences and I would have given them benefit of the doubt because it's uncomfortable to question beliefs you've held for so long but in the case of Bukhari-o-Muslim I couldn't brush them under the carpet. Can someone knowledgable tell me if both really are 100% accepted or some hadiths in them are exceptions like the ones I quoted?
Are both these reports even in the compilations? Can someone check for me because I quoted them from a Shi'ah site (that's irrelevant if they are present in our books). Do Shi'ahs have contradictions in their saheeh hadith's?
Where's all the thekedars of Islam to help out a confused brother? Or are they themselves confused now and all they can do is turn a blind eye to these things and bash other religions and sects, I think before we move onto other things it is important to analyse our beleifs/sources/aqeedah/minhaaj and see if they're infalliable or not.
I don't mean to cause fitnah but surely Allaah doesn't want us to follow blindly because that would make us as bad as past nations who went astray because they were too proud and lazy to let go of what their ancestors gave them.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
Are both these reports even in the compilations? Can someone check for me because I quoted them from a Shi'ah site (that's irrelevant if they are present in our books). Do Shi'ahs have contradictions in their saheeh hadith's?
** Where's all the thekedars of Islam to help out a confused brother? Or are they themselves confused now and all they can do is turn a blind eye to these things and bash other religions and sects, I think before we move onto other things it is important to analyse our beleifs/sources/aqeedah/minhaaj and see if they're infalliable or not.**
I don't mean to cause fitnah but surely Allaah doesn't want us to follow blindly because that would make us as bad as past nations who went astray because they were too proud and lazy to let go of what their ancestors gave them.
Don't be jumping the guns. I'm sure those who participate actively and put forth their views and opinions will respond at their convenience.
Of the two views I've read and from what I've learned in the past, I would give preference to the second hadith.
Anyway, I'll try to dig up material and see if there's anything I can find.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
WaSalaam
I have not read beyond what your post but I would say that:
Typing Sahih infront of any title does not make it authentic. Use common sense and common perception based on reading all infomation you can read by various sources.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
My opinion based on what I could understand is that if during sexual intimacy there is emission/discharge of fluid (weather pre-cum or real fluid) then its obligatory to take full shower. Otherwise not. It makes sense to me.
People may remember some ahadeeth stating the prophet (PBUH) used to kiss his wife during Ramadan-daytime. So Roza/Souam will not break,... if one stops before the point of no return which could be difficult for many.........hope my assesment is right.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
Typing Sahih infront of any title does not make it authentic. Use common sense and common perception based on reading all infomation you can read by various sources.
I understand that, but one should be able to assume that books that have been carefully compiled and assessed by prominent Muslim scholars that are labelled as Sahih (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim) would indeed be so. Otherwise there is no point of the books being labelled as such.
If we were addressing other Hadits from other 3rd party sources and someone just plonked Sahih in front of it then I would agree with what you are saying... you would need to check the hadith with Quran and other sources to check its validity. For example if a hadith said "it is wajib to drink beer." you would be able to tell that it is not an authentic Quran.
As a Shia this has always confused me. I hope that a clarification can be made in how to address a situation when you get 2 contradicting hadiths.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
If we were addressing other Hadits from other 3rd party sources and someone just plonked Sahih in front of it then I would agree with what you are saying... you would need to check the hadith with Quran and other sources to check its validity. For example if a hadith said "it is wajib to drink beer." you would be able to tell that it is not an authentic Quran.
As a Shia this has always confused me. I hope that a clarification can be made in how to address a situation when you get 2 contradicting hadiths.
WaSalaam
I have absolutely no inention to argue for argument sake sir but let me tell you that there are many copies of 'Sahih' books available in the market not matching each other.
My intention again is not to make you overtly suspicious or paranoid by saying what I said above and hope you and I continue to find the truth and not stop where we stand.
Shall we say only Quran matches its copies in Arabic language?
(I am not promoting any particual sect or saying one should follow Quran only and disregard everything else)
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
Bottom line:
*Stick to what you think makes sense and not contradictory to major but basic philosophy of Islamic teaching and leave anything behind which you feel not comfortable with, but keep seeking the truth. *
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
I cant stop stressing the fact that the contradictions are apparent to us. But Ask A Fuqhi, and he'll tell you otherwise.
Its like those hadith that state, *YOU HAVE TO RECITE SURAH FATIAH or your Namaaz is not Valid. *But another Hadith states, *When an IMAM IS RECITING, YOU SHOULD STAY SILENT.
*They appear contradictory, so its best to ask a fuqhi.
This forum is not the appropiate place to ask. Since no one is a scholar on hadith.
Re: Are these Ahadeeth authentic and if so why do they contradict?
I tried looking up ahadith in Bulugh Al-Maram. Alhamdulillah, I was able to find a couple of hadith directly relevant to the topic.
Please refer to ahadith #s 94 & 95 as well as the 1st footnote, and especially the 2nd one.
The 2nd footnote more or less states that the hadith about not having to make ghusl (as stated in the first hadith in this thread) has been overridden by the 2nd hadith (as stated in the second hadith in this thread).
Ref: Bulugh Al-Maram - Attainment of the Objective according to the evidence of the Ordinances; Chapter 8, Page 50
Compiled by: Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani - with Brief Notes from the Book Subul-us-Salam.
