Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

anjjan · September 17, 2005, 5:43am

Re: Are there no “castelike” divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:“High caste” Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

You want to impose your conclusion on India. The question of acceptance or rejection does not arise.
On the contrary I doubt if Muslims accept any country to be of their own.
Not all but many Muslims think that they (by adopting new forefathers) brought knowledge to India…forget Ramayana, Mahabharata, Nalanda and Takshila Universities, forget Arryabhat etc.
Muslims (by adopting new forefathers) think that they were a party to the ruling class in mid centuries.
Indian Christians never think that they were a party to the British ruling in India. (You see the difference.)

So, you first decide if the converted Muslims have accepted the motherland???

Dear friend…Hindus are now at no. Uno in IT and not in Bhang…so dig in our religion to find out if IT comes first before Bhang…Shall I tell you that all over central Asia the Muslims drink Vodka…for them Islam prohibits wine and not vodka?

The true religion Islam…that is your burden, not ours.

Re Buddha statues…..Does not Islam favor to destroy idols??? How Talibans were wrong???

It was a declaration during Taliban rulings that only Quran is a source of knoledge and rest is declaration of satan. Where you find the tribal tradition?

I ask for Ayat of Quran, chapter no and verse no. or hadit’ page no. etc where the Prophet has asked to seek knowledge of mathematics, science…or to go to China for seeking knowledge? Or if the Prophet meant Ilm Knowledge…what he says on behalf of Allah?

I want to read the actual text (from Quran, Hadit) in correct translation about the meaning of knowledge as per Islam???

syedpk · September 18, 2005, 12:12am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

I think on my every post i have mentioned the facts which guys like you dont want to accept here it is again and this time read it carefully.It is simple any intoxicating thing is prohibited in islam and you again mentioned that some muslims are alcoholics etc .why dont you get it after i have said it on almost every time if a muslim does something bad you cant say that islam allows it.Bhang is in hinduism so you should accept the fact it is in your religious ceremonies .Please dont write something in your post that makes me laugh how well you have diverted from bhang to I.T. No matter what their number is azeem premji is a muslim.What kind of arguement was that if they some indians have excelled in Information technology the whole hinduism is numero uno as you have put it . when did bill gates converted to hinduism.I can give you a list of muslim scientists who invented many things

The taliban were ignorant they mixed islam with their tribal culture.They claimed that they brought the shariah but they failed to do so the afghans in the north were also not happy with them so you didnt mentioned them.shariah was not implemented in its true form.i also said something about poppy cultivation they banned it you didnt say that they did a good job.

In a secular india can a muslim live without believing in the hindu mythology.That was my point no one can be loyal to india until and unless he believes in these things. india became an independent country in 1947 before the british muslims ruled India for more than 500 years.Remove all this from the history of india.you first look at the origins of the hindu word in dictionaries and from which language this word is taken from if you find arabic then you should call yourself what you used to call yourself in the BC period

The ayats from quran about knowledge

Read: In the name of thy Lord who created man from a clot. Read: And thy Lord is the Most Generous Who taught by the pen, taught man that which he knew not."

(Quran, 96:1-5)

"And they shall say had we but listened or used reason, we would not be among the inmates of the burning fire."

(Quran, 67:10)

"Are those who have knowledge and those who have no knowledge alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful. "

(Quran, 39:9)

And the Qur'an exhorts the Muslims to do scientific research:.

"And whoso bringeth the truth and believeth therein such are the dutiful."

(Quran, 39:33)

Every Muslim man's and every Muslim woman's prayer should be:

"My Lord! Enrich me with knowledge.."

(Quran, 20:114)

The pursuit of knowledge and the use of reason, based on sense observation is made obligatory on every Muslim, man and woman

some of the hadiths of prophet muhammed peace be upon him

Seek knowledge "even though it be in China."

"The acquisition of knowledge is compulsory for every Muslim, whether male or female."

"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr."

"Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave."

"God has revealed to me, 'Whoever walks in the pursuit of knowledge I facilitate for him the way to heaven.'

"The best form of worship is the pursuit of knowledge."

"Scholars should endeavor to spread knowledge and provide education to people who have been deprived of it. For, where knowledge is hidden it disappears."

Some one asked the Prophet (SAS): "Who is the biggest scholar?" He replied: "He who is constantly trying to learn from others, for a scholar is ever hungry for more knowledge."

"Seek for knowledge and. wisdom, or whatever the 'vessel from which it flows, you will never be the loser."

"Thinking deep for one hour (with sincerity) is better than 70 years of (mechanical) worship."

To listen to the words of the learned and to instill unto others the lessons of science is better than religious exercises."

"Acquire knowledge: it enables its possessor to distinguish right from the wrong, it lights the way to heaven; it is Our friend in the desert, our society in solitude, our companion when friendless- it guides us to happiness; it sustains us in misery; it is an Ornament among friends and an armor against enemies"

Knowledge of every subject should be taken by muslims there is no doubt about this.

We muslims believe in positive debates if people criticise taliban who destroyed the buddha statues no one can blame muslims from that we can counter attack that hindus used to do satti with a woman.All kind of black magic.the balli of small kids and others.I can give you other things that we muslims can criticise on hinduism and other faiths.If hindus of bengal are famous for witchcraft and they can harm anyone with this evil practice and in islam anything like that is prohibited and one who acts this way is out of islam.so does that make hinduism a religion that supports satti ,that gives a right to man to kill young innocent kids just to be free with his sins.So please read what islam says and dont look at some muslims who are not right and not following islam in its true form.I can give to a link of website by a great indian muslim scholar Dr zakir naik who has alos researhed on hinduism and other religions and why others should follow islam

www.irf.net

Lahore_981 · September 18, 2005, 3:13am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

^ Yaar if they had read our responses, they wouldn't have posted the same thing again. Your posts are very explicit in themselves. I agree to you.

deedawar · September 18, 2005, 5:08am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

There was once a dark piece of land now called India and it was enlightened by muslims!

Muslims who brought civilization to many places on earth.

Muslims who set the standard for many good things in the world including justice, art, science, social harmony and equality etc. They brought a new idea of human dignity and respect, no matter what their color. ethnic origin, profession, language or religeon etc. was. Peaceful law abiding non-muslims were given protection and respect.

Humanity did exist before current day Islam but mainly due to the need for human race to survive and some teachings of various religeons (including judaism and christianity etc.) but it was perfected by Islam.

anjjan · September 18, 2005, 5:11am

Re: Are there no “castelike” divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:“High caste” Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

Thanks a lot…I opened Quran once again to understand correctly what knowledge means…..Have you ever paid attention that most of above Ayats are written with some other words that knowledge will lead you to heaven, otherwise fire in hell is waiting for you, and have fear of God etc.
So, ‘fear’ and ‘knowledge’ have not become synonyms in Quran……are you sure?

“My Lord! Enrich me with knowledge..”……… Qur’an exhorts the Muslims to do scientific research:.
You or other scholars have only put up their words in the interpretation, nothing else.

Make it clear first, what the Prophet actually meant. As per his rewards for knowledge the greatest scientist ever known Einstein must be enjoying his posthumous days in heaven? Do you agree?

Re Hadit……something is really interesting. I was stressing on this point to read…’go to China for knowledge’.

I question the authenticity of such words…..The Prophet while crusading against Christianity and Judaism talks nothing of Buddhism…..Are you sure that he had information of China. Or he pointed out the Muslims to go to China to seek knowledge from Buddhism???

You are angry…I say nothing of Poppy prohibition in afghanistan. It’s Ok. So…what is your objection?

Bhang in our religious cults? I do not understand what your problem is? This religious text does not mean that a Hindu is bound to drink a glass of Bhang every morning.

For Bhang you blame hindus….whom you give credit for our progress in IT and knowledge?

You escaped my question…….Does not Islam favor to destroy the idols? What Talibans did against Islam?

Shariah was not implemented in its true form in Afghanistan…It’s already 1400 years…how long will you remain confused about the true form of your religion?
You can remain confused…does not matter, but for your confusion when innocents pay with their lives…it creats a problem for others.

One important question………..a Muslim doing something nice….credit goes to Islam. When they do something irrelevant and most of the time they do it on behalf of Islam (on the name of Islam), you dislodge the credit?

Frankly speaking all Muslims read Quran, but I do not find any flood of scientists in Muslim majority areas.
There can be three reasons…..Quran itself…..the study centre….or Muslims themselves.
What option you choose?

Do not mind…I know many brilliant Muslims….and I give credit for that to their talent, hard work surroundings etc but not to religion at all.
And for our progress in IT……….it just means that Hindus are not stubborn against knowledge.

anjjan · September 18, 2005, 5:12am

Re: Are there no “castelike” divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:“High caste” Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

(Sorry, I cannot open this link)

Does Dr Zakir Naik says where did Islam go wrong? The countries accepted Islam (especially in Central Asia) and after so many centuries of Islamic life they are totally en-mass stubborn against knowledge?
Any idea, whose fault is it?

///\I really like this quote.

Ever heard of Ramayana, Mahabharata…the most ancient epics of world?

Ever heard of Nalanda or Takshila Universities?

Do you know who destroyed the libraries full of books of ‘knowledge’,astronomy, mathematics etc. in India?

India was carved out…two new Islamic States came out…Pakistan and Bangladesh…..just pay attention what they did with knowledg in these two states.

Sadiyah · September 18, 2005, 5:14am

Re: Are there no “castelike” divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:“High caste” Hindu stude

Source: “Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China” is a false hadeeth](http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=13637&dgn=4)

syedpk · September 18, 2005, 6:14am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

I actually agree with lahore 981 that you dont want to believe

Thank you for your concern on central asia you dont know what happened there when the communist were in power.There are some islamic movements especially in uzbekistan.We muslims accept what is wrong and what went wrong and definitely we ourselves are responsible to some extent but see the realities there.There is a fighting going on in chechnya ,dagestan but whenever there is a islamic movement the world calls it terrorism extremism so i think you should have an idea by now what went wrong in central asia.

ohhh bad you cant open that link try to search islamic research foundation on any search engine.why dont you people study islam yourself just arguements which are baseless wont help.

Now you will start accusing muslims of destroying the libraries.

I think you wont accept what is just and right and we as muslims can only pray to allah almighty to guide you and people like you towards the right path.

anjjan · September 18, 2005, 9:18am

Re: Are there no “castelike” divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:“High caste” Hindu stude

Courtesy to Sadiyah…

With regard to the hadeeth mentioned, “Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China, for seeking knowledge is a duty on every Muslim,” Shaykh al-Albaani said in Da’eef al-Jaami’: “(It is) fabricated.” (no. 906).

The proven hadeeth is that which was narrated by Ibn Maajah from the hadeeth of Anas ibn Maalik, who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.’” (220. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan Ibn Maajah. What is meant by knowledge here is knowledge of sharee’ah (Islamic knowledge). Al-Thawri said: “It is the knowledge for which no person has any excuse for not knowing.” And Allaah knows best.

syedpk…

You must pray for Sadiyah for prooving you wrong. I expect you to decide your discord peacfully!

Sadiyah · September 18, 2005, 4:19pm

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

anjjan, just in case you misunderstood, I would like to clarify that gaining Islamic knowledge is very important for Muslims and the worldly knowledge is just as important. I even posted an article on it a while ago.

syedpk · September 18, 2005, 5:39pm

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

You scored a point anjjan great going.what about the other hadiths and quranic verses i posted but what can i say you people have a narrow tunnel vision cant change your views.

About the hadith some ullemas(clerics) scholars object to it others quote it.But it is better not to quote something that is disputed so i made a mistake by quoting that one.hadiths at the time of mohammed peace be upon him were either written by sahabas(companions) or they used to learn them by heart.The sunni sect of islam usually quote hadiths from
al-Bukhari
Muslim
Abu Daud
al-Tirmidhi
al-Nasai
Ibn Maja

Shias follows the nihaj-ul-balagha of hazrat ali

So muslims normally dont quote hadiths from other sources

There can be a doubt about the authencity of a particular hadith but no muslims have doubt what so ever about quran which is same since it revealed and will not change until the judgement day.

Sadiyah is a sister in islam if she corrected me whats wrong with it.we dont hide anything about our religion.She pointed out the hadith which is not authentic to some so why should i argue with her on anything.

anjjan · September 19, 2005, 4:55am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

syedpk
You repeated many times that the Prophet asked the followers to go to China if needed for seeking knowledge.
Now you agree that the Prophet did not say anything like that……I was conscious because the Prophet talked nothing of Buddhism and relating knowledge.

Ok, no problem…just tell me where it is written in Quran that knowledge means science, astronomy, mathematics etc….or Quran means knowledge as the knowledge of sharee’ah, the Islamic knowledge.
(As Hadits can be controversial, not Quran, you have told me.)

Quran says….’In the name of thy Lord who created man from a piece of meat’.
And some of your scholars cunning put up the biologic terminology ‘Clot’ instead of ‘peace of meat’ in interpretations and you call it science.

Make it sure if you are not misleading yourself!

syedpk · September 19, 2005, 6:41am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

thats what i said

About the hadith some ullemas(clerics) scholars object to it others quote it.But it is better not to quote something that is disputed so i made a mistake by quoting that one.

some ullemas quote it and thats why i quote that one obviously to go to any place for knowledge is allowed in islam.famous muslim scientist bu ali sina(avicena) went to some indian place in pursuit of knowledge.muslims can take education fron non muslims but only the worldly knowledge.

I have already quoted some verses from the quran and hadiths so you can check my previous posts.
Majority of the hadiths are authentic and small percentage of them are not so authentic but they didnot create any controversy

Arabic is spoken mainly in the middle east and in northern africa it has dialects etc .Quran is in arabic so the word to word translation in some other language is difficult.For example in Urdu we use the word "Chath" for ceiling and also for roof.So same goes for other languages. So you must read the exegesis of the verse for better understanding.

Read my posts carefully and try to have a constructive debate.sarcasm taunts and cynicism wont give you anything

anjjan · September 19, 2005, 11:41am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

You have again escaped my enquiries.....

Just tell me where it is written in Quran that knowledge means science, astronomy, mathematics etc….
or Quran means knowledge as the knowledge of sharee’ah, the Islamic knowledge.

Kindly make it clear. It is an important issue. As per your last post I doubt if you understand it.

'Peace of meat'...is translated 'Clot' a totly misleading interpretation. This is only one example. There are plenty of such misleading translations and interpretations.

Given are your words.....

And the Qur'an exhorts the Muslims to do scientific research:.

"And whoso bringeth the truth and believeth therein such are the dutiful."
(Quran, 39:33)
The actual translation of 39:33 should be 'the person who brings the truth and confirms it, such type of people keep fear'.

Where you find Quran mentioning a scientific research in 39:33??

Sadiyah · September 19, 2005, 12:59pm

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

anjjan, you seem to be knowing the 'actual translation' of the Quran. If I may ask, are you familiar with Quranic Arabic?

dope · September 19, 2005, 2:47pm

Re: Are there no “castelike” divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:“High caste” Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

No, he is getting it from some charlatan hack website and copying and pasting.

Hum_Hain · September 19, 2005, 8:57pm

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

anjjan: ur not asking about Islam...ok

        I know that in pakistan, there is a tendency towards marrying in own castes..
        The reasons could be many...
        doesn't imply its wholly because of low castes ets..
        some people prefer marrying in families,hence its in castes..
        if your not marrying in castes, it could be a caste which is rated at the same level as
        yours..
        some would hate to be associated with low castes e.g choudry's, jatts hating 
        to be related to mochi,kammi, masalli etc..
        some wont consider castes at all...

        then it could be argued marrying in own castes has its benefits i.e. eleminates 
        potential problems that could arise from different castes...
        another topic

        personally I think people themselves choose to do what they do..there's nothing 
        wrong with that..

        from what i know..low castes also prefer marrying in their own castes..

       dont know why they're called low or high..
       you dnt get to choose ur caste..ur born in it..it shouldnt be looked down upon or  
       taken offence to...

syedpk · September 19, 2005, 10:30pm

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

Quran guides us in all aspects of life and it is whether the knowledge of shariah or science we read it for our guidance and to earn sawab(a good deed) by which inshallah we will get ajr(reward for a good deed).Muslims to gain wordly knowledge and islamic knowledge both are important.So dont take me wrong again as you have done in the previous posts guidance on religion only from Quran and hadith but we can read other books as well for knowledge on other aspects.

How many times do I have to tell you that we are asked to seek knowledge and i have mentioned the quranic verses and hadiths before.We have to read the Quran what it says and based on it research on the relevant feilds.

About the big bang theory it is in the quran.The quran says

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?(21:30)

Astronomer Copernicus showed that the earth orbited around the sun in the sixteenth century quran had this information about 1000 years before him so anjjan you can well imagine.The quranic verse is

It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.(21:33)

Expansion of the universe

And the universe, we constructed with power and skill and verily we are expanding it. (51:47)

And the quranic verse about sun and the moon

Consider the sun and its radiant brightness and the moon as it reflects the sun! (91:1)

There are other verses which i can quote so that you may have some idea that in quran we have scientific facts so obviously we have to research on these facts. Obviously some scientist will discover these facts, why not us? it is in our book. Now you know what quran says about scientific research.

If you know arabic so well and you know more than the translators then you shold start reading the quran in arabic so that you dont get confused with words.I also mentioned the tafsir(exegesis)of Quran so you should read it too.

Booze_Allin · September 19, 2005, 10:51pm

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

Namaskar & Salam!

Someone had asked "where in Quran does it say knowledge means astronomy, physics..."

Why does it matter? These are names that evolved at some point - does not mean the underlying field of inquiry did not exist before someone gave it the present name.

For example the term "aerospace engineering" was is not mentioned as such in any scriptures, yet PushpakaVimana was used with great effect in Ramayan.

I do however see the other point made - many scriptures simply refer to themselves as 'knowledge'...

Bye

anjjan · September 20, 2005, 3:51am

Re: Are there no "castelike" divisions in Islam? [SPLIT FROM:"High caste" Hindu students refuse food prepared by Dalits]

It is not fair. Under the conception of a constructive discussion you have started preaching Islam.

You quote....
It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.(21:33)

Does it mean that earth is rotating around the Sun….or this Ayat is a diversion of the old concept that Sun comes in the day and goes in the night, moon comes in the night and goes in day.

And the universe, we constructed with power and skill and verily we are expanding it. (51:47)

The word for ‘power and skill’ is strength and ‘we are expanding it’ is incorrect translation.

Consider the sun and its radiant brightness and the moon as it reflects the sun! (91:1)
The actual Ayat in Quran is different

91:1 By oath of Sun and its arising brightness
91:2 And of the moon which comes after sun.
91:3 And of the day which alights the sun
91”4 And of the night which covers the sun.

The Prophet said nothing apart from the pre established concepts of his era…….its your scholars’ misconceptions have created a myth arround it.

Why do not you study Quran, a mere learning can only mislead you.

That Prophet had no information of studies already established in ancient India; otherwise the given Ayats could have some other revelations.

Ancient India - Astronomy

(Ps, Quran has many many beautiful Ayats , but blind faith is a problem.)