I was out on lunch with a couple of collegues, when discussion turned to religion and conversion. One of them made the claim, that there is very little acceptance in Judaism for new converts. You are either born a jew or you are not accepted as a jew.
Most religions I know, are fairly welcoming to new followers.. be it Christian missionaries, or Islamic tableeghi jama’ats or buddhist monks… Is Judaism really so restrictive in its admission policies?
Any ideas?
I know two people, one a man and one a woman, who've converted to Judaism for marriage. Incidentally, I also know one man who "reverted" to Islam (for the same reason).
It's not impossible to convert to Jewish faith, it's just not easy to be accepted by the community at large.
The Rabbi I know has explained me the concept of the 'chosen people'. According to him, God chose his people above others for the teachings & those teachings are exclusive to the Jews.
When asked how about if someone else like those teachings and wants to adopt them; his answer was that no one needs to convert to accept those teachings. If someone repeatedly insists, they make sure that their intentions are in correct order.
But as pointed out by Stu, it's not always that the check is kept in place.
Also, there are many different branches within Judaism, which interpret the law differently. So, it really depends on whom you talk to.
Some Jews consider only the two tribes of Israel left behind in Jerusalem as the covenant bearers. Some believe all others who were displaced are part of that brotherhood (i.e. the lost tribes) While some consider a true Jew to be born of the Jewish mother, others believe any one of the parent being Jewish legitimizes the claim.
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*Originally posted by Stu: *
I know two people, one a man and one a woman, who've converted to Judaism for marriage. Incidentally, I also know one man who "reverted" to Islam (for the same reason).
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Yes, I guess there are people who convert to Judaism, like to any other religion... perhaps I phrased the title of the thread incorrectly. The question is, are the converts to judaism given the same status and rights as an ordinary born-jew jew?
They have the same status as a life long jew.
Conversion to Judaism is very hard (I tried numerous times, but was rejected). A Rabbi under Talmudic Law is bound to reject the seeker of Judaism at least 3 times (to make sure that the person seeking conversion is sincere). It is possible but very difficult process. But Jews not only treat converted Jews equally, but they treat everyone else equally (Jews and Gentiles alike).
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But Jews not only treat converted Jews equally, but they treat everyone else equally (Jews and Gentiles alike).
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Hmmmmmm....then why does the Thalmud read: The Gentiles are created to serve the Jews. They must plow, sow, weed, dig, reap, bundle, soft, and grind. The Jews are created to find everything ready.
and also: It is permitted for Jews to cheat Gentiles. All lies are good.
aswell as: It is forbidden for a Jew to cheat his brother. To cheat a Gentile is permitted.
no to miss: Concerning robbery it is taught: Gentiles may not rob each other. The Gentile may not rob the Jews. But the Jews may at any time rob the Gentiles.
and did i forgot to mention: If a Jew has stolen something from a Gentile and the Gentile discovers it and demands it back, the Jew should simply deny it all. The Jewish court will stand by the Jew.
NYA, you actually wanted to convert to a religon teaching all this.
this is coming from an adherent of a religion that espouses nuggets like non-believers will burn in hellfire. Slay the idolators where you see them...etc..etc..
Islam is like Christianity practiced by those crazy doomsdayers. "there is no god but Allah..or Jesus christ is your lord and saviour..if you don;t believe that you are going to burn in hell. "
Glass houses chanda...glass houses..
occupied palestine
I used to frequent judaism forums in the past, and have also spoken to jews I know on this matter. From my personal experience of what I saw, heard, and was told, Jews are generally not very accepting of those who convert to Judaism. Infact several of the orthodox jews were very insistent that theres no such thing as a jewish convert. sigh But this is my limited experience, so dunno for sure.
Also, I know several people whose mother is not Jewish and their dad is, and they have related that even they are not always accepted as true Jews, among other Jews. Which I found even more peculiar.
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*Originally posted by lunaticCalm: *
Hmmmmmm....then why does the Thalmud read: The Gentiles are created to serve the Jews. They must plow, sow, weed, dig, reap, bundle, soft, and grind. The Jews are created to find everything ready.
and also: It is permitted for Jews to cheat Gentiles. All lies are good.
aswell as: It is forbidden for a Jew to cheat his brother. To cheat a Gentile is permitted.
no to miss: Concerning robbery it is taught: Gentiles may not rob each other. The Gentile may not rob the Jews. But the Jews may at any time rob the Gentiles.
and did i forgot to mention: If a Jew has stolen something from a Gentile and the Gentile discovers it and demands it back, the Jew should simply deny it all. The Jewish court will stand by the Jew.
NYA, you actually wanted to convert to a religon teaching all this.
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Are you certain the Talmud writes this? I grant I have not read the Talmud, but have read Talmudic stories and all that I have read were soulful uplifting stories.
I am wondering if you are absent in mind and repeating untruths that you were taught to believe?
AAGirl, Talmud is not just one book, but a collection of Judaic Laws written in the 5/th 6th century by a bunch of Rabbis (call it Jewish Shariah). And yes, parts of it are pretty harsh on non-Jews. But so is the Quran and other religious literature. Muslims are quick to point out that everything should be taken in a context. I wonder why they lose context when a book is not their own.
It's funny because Talmud has guidelines to dress your ass (donkey) and how to pierce a donkey's nose. It is a pretty detailed code. But it will be naive to think that all Jews follow those Laws to the T. Things have changed for Jews (perhaps not for all Jews) since the 5th century, and they have moved along well with the changing times.
Which is not the case with some other religions.
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Are you certain the Talmud writes this? I grant I have not read the Talmud, but have read Talmudic stories and all that I have read were soulful uplifting stories.
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Although one could find such quotations in Talmud, in my opinion the actual text has been abrogated so many times that its now impossible to tell right from wrong. You might find plenty of sites that justify or even deny that these quotes even exist, but I suggest that you go to a library that holds a copy and read it for yourself.
Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
The list goes on and on and on....
I heared Jews go by mother,..if mother is jew, kid will be jew as well...no matter what father is...
and if Farther is jew and mother is not, they don't accpet the kid as jew???
Correct me...
If its thats the case then it says all!
^ Well, the clear reason for that may be because it is actually very easy to determine the mother of a child (bcz she gives birth to the baby) compared to determining the father. Its only recently that we have come out with sophisticated DNA testing etc. So many cultures of the world, give more preference to the mother (I know that the official birth certificates in many states in the US, primarily mention only the mother of the baby).
Secondly, its not a discussion to insult any faith, but rather a genuine question. We have grown up in an Islamic mind-set which invites everyone to join the faith and welcome all "reverts". Hindus also "invite" people of other faiths to become hindu (I remember, some time ago, during Hindu-Muslim riots in Mumbai, the Hindu rioters were chanting slogans "Hindustan mein rehna hai, tau hindu bann karr rehna hai" etc). Christian missionaries spend their life-time inviting people to join christianity. So, it was a bit of a surprise that jews, not only don't go around inviting people to join in, instead are also, perhaps not as welcoming to the converts, as some of the other faiths.
Initially I thought the information is incorrect. However, after reading all the responses, may be it was not too way off the mark either. One reason which I can fathom is that jews consider themselves as the "chosen ones". And they are chosen by God through birth to jewish parents, not by an individual who just decides to join their faith. Hence stricter rules regarding who is the "chosen one". Maybe there is more to it.
Check this out: It shows that conversion is possible.
http://www.convertingtojudaism.com
In terms of matrelinial identity. It’s to do with Torah’s stories, particularly Jewish Men marrying non-Jewish women in Egypt. After the exodus, they left their wives and kids behind. In Judaism, a 100% Judaism practicing person with a non-Jewish Mother is not considered a Jew, while an atheist born to a Jewish Mother is considered a Jew. Judaism is as much a race as it is a religion. It is very complex. People think Islam is complex.
David was a Jew due to conversion. His mother was non-Jewish.
^^ how is Islam complex 
Because Muslims don't agree as to who is Muslims and who is Not, therefore they need Governments to decide it for them. I hope that clarifies it for you.
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*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Judaism is as much a race as it is a religion.
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I think this will explain it. By the way, the original jews (Bani Israel) and their generations is one thing. If anyone converts to judaism now, will they actually believe that Moses was the last prophet and Jesus was a heretic?
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
^ Well, the clear reason for that may be because it is actually very easy to determine the mother of a child (bcz she gives birth to the baby) compared to determining the father. Its only recently that we have come out with sophisticated DNA testing etc. So many cultures of the world, give more preference to the mother (I know that the official birth certificates in many states in the US, primarily mention only the mother of the baby)....
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I know that and for the same reason human will be called by thier mother name on day of jusdjmenet... but my question was, was I right or wrong what I said in my earlier post ?