Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion and forgetting the true essence of Islam.
I was browsing through these forums the other day..I did a lot of reading of some of the older posts and found this trend to be fascinating.

While Islam was revolutionary in the 6th century Arab world which had very less development, it could not have gone overboard and banned some of the existing bad practices which would have been counterproductive. I personally feel that the present day muslims are focussing on the written word more than the intent behind these teachings..

Following are some of the teachings where I feel that the intent behind the teaching is lost..

  1. Polygamy : In the 6th century polygamy would have been the norm and outright banning would not have been feasible. Islam restricted the number to 4 and asked people to treat their wives equally which I do not think is possible. The latter part of the teaching is not adhered to while people go ahead and keep marrying…

  2. Slavery : I was reading a thread wherin a poster was saying that slavery should be brought back so that Islam can achieve greatness. I do not want to talk more on this, but feel sympathetic to the poster whose mental abilities deserve some serious looking into..

  3. 72 Virgins : When people were asked to give up marrying many women, there should have been an incentive for them to restrict themselves to 4. Hence this theory.

  4. Interest : People might have been charging huge interests for money that was being borrowed. I do believe that usury would have been banned. For those of you who think it is interest that was banned, I need to ask a simple question. Can anybody survive in this present world without having to do something with interest. There might be Islamic Banking, but I believe it is just another name for interest. The present day economy would be in ruins without interest.

  5. Music : Intention might have been to ban bad music but then…

  6. Taking pictures
    The list is long, but I think I will curtail it here.
    That said I do not think the present day muslims are conforming to the teaching that they need to educate themselves well. While Dubai and Saudi boasts of some of the luxurious hotels and what not.. Why is’nt there a single university of repute that is making a difference like Yale etc

Your thoughts.
Ps: I am a non-muslim and these are just my thoughts. I am not intending to hurt anybody and apologize if I have hurt anybody’s sentiments.

2

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Good luck trying to get people to agree with you. I think you're right by the way.

3

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Peace StormRaiser,

I agree with what you wrote in post#1 but would like to add that in Chapter 3 verse 14, we already were informed that a man (we) feel proud of having/loving the things that he (we) covet, like having/loving (1) Women and Sons (2) Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver (3) horses branded for blood and excellence [Wealth of] cattle and (5) well-tilled land.

These possessions of this world's life are the most fair in the eyes of any men and we always covet for more and more, but these possessions/things do not hold any value/weight in eternal life. Alas! we are unaware from knowing that.

So when we 'feel that the present day Muslims are focusing on the written word more than the intent behind these teachings', I think it is because we covet more and more for the above worldly possessions and to give it a legal shape, we pick something from inside of our religion that befitted for it and then give it a legal permissible shape for that possession(s).

4

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

^^

I agree with this and it is time that the muslim world thought about the rewards in heaven in a more realistic manner. I think this will make a big difference.

5

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Peace StormRaiser

This is my personal take as an insider on the issues you present.

Firstly, yes people do focus on ritualistic aspects, because they know how difficult they are to maintain in this day and age. I think we are doing the right thing to focus on rituals, because by adhering to them our understanding will increase as well, through spiritual openings in a manner that you might not understand rationally.

Islam was revolutionary in the 6th century and it still so today. However, certain things have drifted backwards to a condition that is more similar to the pagan Arab times. The modern world is more like a time before Islam and to bring it back up to the standards of the early Muslims will be the pinnacle of humanity.

1) Polygamy should be viewed alongside fornication and adultery ... Today the modern world has no answers for us to fight fornication and adultery so polygamy is the better way.

2) Slavery of the early Muslim era basically gave rights to the slaves ... This in modern language is the same as a slave being converted in to an employee. If anyone has a job and works under contract of employment then this is the same as slavery according to the Islamic understanding of slavery. The slave trade of the Americas gave slavery a bad name ... Today an ex-pat living in the Middle East is a slave in the Islamic sense, there are no longer any slaves without rights and that concept was abolished in the time of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) already. If the taking of slaves sounds harsh say in a war situation then think of it like this ... That the nations taken over by the Muslims, the people would be employed by their Muslim employers ... Sounds like a favour doesn't it? Yes, exactly as the British empire made employees out of us in the subcontinent ... They called us over to their countries and made us 'employees' ... And later we have rights to own land and businesses that would make us free ... So you really need to understand what slavery means in the Islamic context.

3) 72 virgins? This is not even worth a comment, but I would like to say that the idea of virginity is a translation error ... As the English translation focuses on the sexual implication, whereas the original idea of virgin in Islam is more like virgin olive oil ... i.e. that it is pure and unadulterated in a holistic way.

4) All forms of interest is usury ... This is a huge subject and not befitting for this response. The prophet Muhammad (SAW) said, that towards the end times the whole world would be dealing in usury, and those who would not actively consume it would be covered in its dust. So your argument about the world being usurious is true, but it does not mean we have to accept that. We can change it, but we don't try hard enough.

5) Music is a recognised doorway to evil by all societies, it has some good effects, but many dangers stem from it as it has the ability to bend our emotions when there is no sensible cause for those emotions to be there.

6) Pictures, no education and tall buildings ... Yes, there is no current capability, but the standards of Yale is not one to aspire to either ... Modern universities are about how to put more clones in to the capitalistic-consumeristic framework ...

6

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Here is my thoughts:

Banning alcohol intent was to stop alcoholics and crimes caused by alcoholism.
I have seen people go to unreasonable lengths trying to find mouthwash without alcohol, medicine without alcohol etc.

7

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

^ Lol that's the point people miss when following rituals without understanding. We avoid alcohol because it intoxicates us. If candy has alcohol in it, it's not going to get you drunk no matter how much you eat. Mouth wash is not going to get you drunk, and I imagine it would cause other harm before intoxication. Still, it's fine to avoid those things but let's not say that all alcohol is somehow dangerous since our own bodies have alcohol in them. It's just an OH group at the end people.

As for interest, common sense dictates that we need interest or no one would ever lend anyone else any money. Why would I give you $10 today, with the agreement that you will pay me back in a year, when I can spend my $10 now? If you knew me I might help you out, but what if you don't know anyone and need $10 right now? A stranger will only give you that $10 if they are going to get $11 or $12 back in a year. This is called opportunity cost. We also need interest because currency has inflation, and interest compensates for both opportunity cost, as well as inflation. Everyone of us works with inflation in some way shape or form, so I guess we're all sinners. Let's use our heads here, there's a difference between lending and loan sharking. I believe the Prophet was against the latter, since that's probably all that existed in those days, but banking today is far more advanced today than in 600 AD Arabia.

As for music, if you think a song bends your emotions then you're basically making the same argument as white Republicans who say that rap music causes teenagers to commit crimes. And by the way, if you belive that, then what about literature (including holy books) that have violence in them? What about TV and movies? Do video games cause violence (they don't by the way, study after study has shown that).
8

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Peace Ghost14

There is no reason to have banks as businesses … The robbers thought how best to rob the bank, instead they created their own bank and convinced us all to put our money with them and give them more as a result. They are the only institution who can make money from nothing.

Borrowing money is also unnecessary … It supports a lavishness in lifestyle which is unfounded. There are concepts to have total cooperative banks which house the money for their customers and can operate as insurance companies too … It is about trust … And it is not true … that interest is needed … I know plenty of people who lend others money without interest. There are ways to secure pay back too … Such as holding deposits like the deeds to the household or a car. When the payments are completed then the deposit is returned.

We need to start thinking outside the box …

Watch this video please …
RISTalks: Shaykh Hamza Yusuf - “Fair Trade Commerce for a Better World” at RIS Canada 2011 - YouTube

9

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

The music topic …
You say white republicans say rap music causes teenagers to commit crimes … So is it false because they are white republicans? Or are you saying they are white republicans and such people will always lie?

The Effects of Music on Emotional Response, Brand Attitude, and Purchase Intent in an Emotional Advertising Condition by Jon D. Morris and Mary Anne Boone

Music and emotion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Although the film gets a technicality wrong with the dates Braveheart mentions the outlawed tunes on the outlawed pipes … Here is the tune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=» How Music Affects the Brain: the Power of Music](http://www.omharmonics.com/blog/how-music-affects-the-brain/)

10

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Have you ever wondered how women would feel if they are 4th in line to their husbands. You cannot counter one evil with another.

And the owner of the slaves had the right to sleep with the slaves. Yes you will talk about consent from the slave, but then what choice does the slave have. Your comparison of employee and slave is absurd to say the least. Employees are protected from harassment and the like, but what rights do slaves have rather than to be subjugated. Your attempt to give Americans the bad name for slavery is not right. They found that it was wrong and then stopped it. It is not that in the present day they are still dreaming of a time when they can own slaves.

So you are implying that only virgin oil is awaiting you heaven. How many shcolars agree to this interpretation..

So what are doing to change it. It is very easy to be an armchair advocate and claim that it needs to be changed. What is the alternative. Islamic Banks are Normal banks with another name.

It is your thought and this is not shared by most of the people including muslims. It is soothing and relaxing. If you have to live in a world devoid of all emotions then good for you...

If I understand correctly no pictures of living beings are to be taken. If that is the case, you would never know what certain animals looked like and our knowledge of the earth as we know it would be a lot lesser. If Yale is not the one to aspire what in your opinion is the knowledge to be aspired for. The amount of research has made our lives a lot easier than the life we had in the 6th century. Well you may have the opinion that the 6th century life was better in so many respects. For your information there are places in the world that can be mirrored to the life they had in 6th century.. It is time to move.

11

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Simple question. Where do you keep all your money. Do not tell me that you keep the money in the bank because of security and hundred other reasons. You give to charity what they give you in interest and the like. You could withdraw the money and keep it in your safe locker at home. Yes it would not be safe, but it is the choice that you have to make to protect your faith.

Again, if you needed to be hospitalized on an urgent basis and an urgent surgery was required that cost a lot of money. What would you do. Better die than to live I suppose. At times I feel we need to keep in touch with reality.

12

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Peace StormRaiser

Thus surfaces your true feelings for the said subjects ... You were playing around with us in your first post ...

You said,

"While Islam was revolutionary in the 6th century Arab world which had very less development, it could not have gone overboard and banned some of the existing bad practices which would have been counterproductive."

You just hurled your views out just now ... You have no intention for dialogue and you wish us to accept your teaching us Islam ... If you know it so well why don't you become a Muslim?

Every Muslim is obliged to believe that the best of people and the pinnacle of the greatest society occurred at the time of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ... It is not any learned Muslim's opinion that "Islam could not have gone overboard" that it was merely an age which was seeking to improve in later years ... It was the best time that humanity has seen and will ever see.

13

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

^^

I had raised specific queries and got replies which just reinforced my belief is true. I truly believe that Islam was revolutionary at some point in time and can still believe can be provided the true intent is understood which I sadly think many do not. If you are not able to rebut certain points, it helps to wriggle your way out of arguments by questioning the intentions of the poster.

14

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Alcohol was banned because Allah told us to do. Ever heard of fiqh? There are different opinions regarding using it as medicine.

15

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

do you have a better solution?

If you were serious you would not come up with the olive oil comment. That was just unnecessary.

16

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Peace StormRaiser

In this case the intentions of the poster are the most important thing. I am not side-tracking I can answer all the queries but the contentions are not phrased in a way that makes it seem you are interested in a reasonable discussion. You need to remember that you are the non-Muslim and I am the Muslim giving you our point of view ... Instead you want to argue with me that my views are no shared by Muslims or that in order for Muslims to be progressed they need to follow your view.

Now you asked a question ... Let's take them one at a time ... You said something about 4th in line to husbands ... And that you say is somehow as wrong as fornication and adultery ... First of all you need to explain what you mean ... by 4th in line to husbands ... If you are talking about sharing the husband in conjugal activity ... Then well it makes sense that those who come last will get their husband for longer. Also, they can rotate a different pattern each week. It's not a major cause for concern ... But the point I want to make is not about promoting polygamy, but promoting monogamy which is what current day Muslims do and the majority of us are like this based on the early Muslims ... To raise this as somewhat of a major concern is making mountains out of mole hills ... It is a non-issue, but if you want us to change our view that is not gonna happen as it is in the Qur'an ... And we do not alter our Deen. We merely accept it as our domain of what is or is not permissible. Just like divorce is not preferred but permissible, in a similar way polygamy is the same. Now I hope we can move from this this non-issue now.

17

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Agree with your perspective and understand that the perspective from a muslim would be different from a non-muslim. I understand for a dialogue to happen we would have to understand where the other person is coming from. At then end if an agreement cannot be reached we should agree to disagree in a civil manner and move on.

Let us take your argument of people being promiscuous and all that and that was the reason why polygamy is allowed. Let me take this argument further and ask you if you know men who are monogamous. In the present day society, polygamy is generally refrained and there are people who are loyal to his wife. Do you think for a man being monogamous is not possible because by nature he is promiscuous. You are skating on very thin ice here sir if I can say so. If you use the excuse of promiscuity to defend polygamy, you are using one wrong to correct another wrong. People with loose morals would always be people with loose morals and will find loopholes. Examples of people divorcing one wife to marry another to keep the count to four is something that is not unheard of.

My argument was that in the 6th century Arabs were used to marrying as many as they could afford and if monogamy was imposed, there would have been stiff resistance. Hence the need to restrict and not totally ban.
A husband and wife are supposed to be emotionally attached and have no secrets between them and marriage should be a union of two souls. If there are multiple involved, there can be causes for jealousy and what not. The ladies would constantly be comparing themselves with each other which would lead to unhealthy competition. In my opinion it is demanding for the wife to be part of the circle of wives. If my memory is correct, the prophet(pbuh) himself forbade his son-in-law to marry again till the time his daughter was alive. Hence my personal opinion is that polygamy should be ended. It is not as if certain practices were stopped which later became tools for exploitation. From a sunni perspective mutah was stopped by a later caliph because people were misusing the law.

I could not reply earlier since I was travelling and was totally occupied.

18

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Question to you if would agree if your husband had multiple wives (some more beautiful than you) if he had the financial capability and the broadmindedness to treat all of his wives equally.

[QUOTE]

quote from a poster ...

72 virgins? This is not even worth a comment, but I would like to say that the idea of virginity is a translation error ... As the English translation focuses on the sexual implication, whereas the original idea of virgin in Islam is more like virgin olive oil ... i.e. that it is pure and unadulterated in a holistic way.
[/QUOTE]

I am not sure I understood the comment clearly.

19

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

All Muslims, no. Some, sure. Others will claim that they're following the essence while not being overly concerned (or at all) about the rituals.

Now about the specifics about some of the things you mentioned:

Polygamy - you say it would not have been feasible to ban it. However, alcohol, particularly wine, was very much a part of their life and was loved by them as well. However, that got banned outright. So was interest. As far as marrying more than one wife, strict conditions have already been placed. Also, there is a verse of the Qur'an saying that the religion is complete, and this order was neither abrogated nor was it further restricted to less than 4.

72 virgins - well, that's something in the hereafter, but I don't see how it would have been merely an incentive to marry less women. I'm not aware of any such connection in religious scriptures, though heavenly wives have been connected with other types of good deeds.

Interest - this was completely banned. I know of many people who live their lives without dealing in any interest. With the absence of interest, I'll say that things would be a lot better. Sure, it makes one budget more, and wait till they can acquire certain things, but apart from that, I see absolutely no long term disadvantage in it.

So I'd say a more accurate categorization would be those who pick and choose with what they practice and leave it at that. Then there are also those who will endeavor to practice the religion in its entirety, acknowledging that they fall short in some aspects but would like to make an effort to rectify that. You can find examples of both.

20

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Did you read my post entirely. Alcohol was completely banned because the reason is so obvious. What might be less for me might be too much for you. There is a thin dividing line that exists on what moderate drinking is. My point is about the people who are so bent on these things that they go to insane lengths to choose a non-alcoholic mouthwash. People have to understand that the intent behind it was not to get yourself intoxicated.

You should read up on how the suicide bombers are recruited. It might open your eyes who use the ritualistic part of the religion to achieve their needs.

Could you please enlighten us on how he get his salary. Is he working or surviving on benefits. If he is working, then he would be getting his salary in a bank which gives the person some interest however paltry it is. Also what would you do if an unforeseen emergency arises.