Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

@StormRaiser

Did you read my post entirely. Alcohol was completely banned because the reason is so obvious. What might be less for me might be too much for you. There is a thin dividing line that exists on what moderate drinking is. My point is about the people who are so bent on these things that they go to insane lengths to choose a non-alcoholic mouthwash. People have to understand that the intent behind it was not to get yourself intoxicated.

I was using the alcohol example as something that was very much a part of their society/life, but it was totally banned. If this could be banned, there was no reason polygamy couldn't if that were the intent behind it.

[quote]

You should read up on how the suicide bombers are recruited. It might open your eyes who use the ritualistic part of the religion to achieve their needs.

[/quote]

What I'm saying is that I've never heard nor seeing any evidence suggesting that it was to reduce the number of wives one can marry. There are other things that mention the virgins, but not for someone who abstains from marrying more than one wife.

[quote]

Could you please enlighten us on how he get his salary. Is he working or surviving on benefits. If he is working, then he would be getting his salary in a bank which gives the person some interest however paltry it is. Also what would you do if an unforeseen emergency arises.
[/quote]

So people deposit their salary in a bank. Sure, it might incur some interest, but what I'm saying is that people will spend in such a manner that they don't end up dealing in interest. They don't ask anyone for it, nor do they pay it to anyone. So it can be done.

[StormRaiser]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

@Captain_Obvious

I was using the alcohol example as something that was very much a part of their society/life, but it was totally banned. If this could be banned, there was no reason polygamy couldn't if that were the intent behind it.

If given a choice between more se* and more wine, people would choose the former. The repercussion of banning polygamy would be much more than banning liquor. I took the example of the Prophet(pbuh) himself forbidding his son-in-law to marry again till the time his daughter was alive. There are several clauses which make polygamy difficult. I think it is time, people realized that this is something that is being taken advantage of and stopped.

@Captain_Obvious

What I'm saying is that I've never heard nor seeing any evidence suggesting that it was to reduce the number of wives one can marry. There are other things that mention the virgins, but not for someone who abstains from marrying more than one wife.

Even though there is no direct correlation, it is implied. If it is let go of in this life, you would have much better in the next life. That is the same reason for having wine in heaven. You would have to understand that this statement has caused grief in the modern world. Suicide bombers are being recruited based on this statement. In my opinion, heaven would not be a place where the worldly pleasures are indulged in.

@Captain_Obvious

So people deposit their salary in a bank. Sure, it might incur some interest, but what I'm saying is that people will spend in such a manner that they don't end up dealing in interest. They don't ask anyone for it, nor do they pay it to anyone. So it can be done.

Come on be realistic. For a normal salaried individual do you think you can lead a life without dealing with interest. You would not be able to own a car or a house. The more money that you have in the bank, the more money you get in interest. Also there is no means of investing in any financial instrument since all of them deal with interest and speculation which is not considered right.

[teggy]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Have we gone from 'Asking for the sake of knowledge and understanding' to 'Telling for the sake of showing how wrong the whole lot of you are'? :) Ah the predictability of some people never too far from the recorded trend.

This post made 5 years ago, still very relevant. Some things just don't change.

[QUOTE]
Why is it that every other person that claims to want to learn about Islam, instead of learning, turns to teaching muslims what Islam should be?

It's not as if Islam needs them. It maybe that they need Islam is why they come to post in threads pertaining to muslim topics and Islam instead.

Generally, this is how it should work:

You wanna learn about Islam, you ask a question or questions. And then you wait for muslims who might know a thing or two to post a response. If you like the answer and it satisfies you, Good. If you do not like what you read, then you either confront them with proof from their own book (Quran in this case), or you just move along.

It's pathetic to see non-muslims refuting, dictating, and nitpicking Quran, Sunnah and the ways of Islam. First of all, their credibility on Islam is as good as a sitting rock because they're not even followers of the faith. People here have been extremely patient for a very long time.

So lets drop the disguise here. And they know who they are.

It's real simple. You wanna learn about Islam, and specifically from GS of all the places, then you ask questions and wait for others to answer them. It's not for you to dissect and dictate how Islam ought to be. Get it straight people.

Thank you....
[/QUOTE]

[StormRaiser]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

^^

For your kind information I was not asking for the sake of knowledge and understanding. It is my opinion. .

[teggy]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Oh, sorry. You were just telling how wrong muslims have their faith, and how their practicing of it is so upside down. How unfortunate we are that every well-wisher of Islam that's non-muslim knows Islam better than we do. Woe to us.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

@teggy

Oh, sorry. You were just telling how wrong muslims have their faith, and how their practicing of it is so upside down. How unfortunate we are that every well-wisher of Islam that’s non-muslim knows Islam better than we do. Woe to us.

Kaabe ko paasban mil gaye Sanam Khane se

[StormRaiser]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

@teggy

Oh, sorry. You were just telling how wrong muslims have their faith, and how their practicing of it is so upside down. How unfortunate we are that every well-wisher of Islam that's non-muslim knows Islam better than we do. Woe to us.

If you have to take things in a convoluted manner. So be it. Nobody can deny your right to do it.. I said it was my opinion and I am not asking anybody to change theirs. It is not about the faith. It is how people are using the ritualistic part of the religion to brainwash the masses. There are quite a good number of posters here who seem to get delighted in the fact that a british soldier was killed. It was my honest assessment and if you do not agree you can always disagree or try to convince me on what you think is right. That is the purpose of dialogue and not push your ideas into somebody else's throat. If you think otherwise so be it.

Also the other thread "Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors" is an opinion which is as similar to mine. It is just an opinion and I think people are entitled to it. It might be totally wrong according to certain beliefs but it is only through dialogue can we learn something more. My intention was not to harm anybody. I had declared myself as a non-muslim in the initial thread itself. It was an outsider's perspective. As insiders you would definitely have a different perspective I agree.

[teggy]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Relax. The point I'm making is that your opinion on how Muslims practice Islam, and why certain practices of Islam were prescribed or prohibited is as credible as a chicken vendor talking about Neurosurgery. I'd listen to him, so as not to seem rude because some day he may just attain the knowledge, but for him/her to lecture me on my faith is rather skewed.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, what determines whether your opinion has integrity and an honest approach is if you've studied Islam, and then present your points of view in the light of Hadiths, Sunnah, and/or Quran.

As for your projection of your opinion of Islam; infact you wouldn't be the first. It's rather comical because in order for me to give a keen ear to your opinion, I would have to know that you've gone through some research from within sources I may acknowledge that back up what you're saying. Otherwise it's the same as concocting things which give comfort to the heart even if they be far from the actual truth.

This is all I had to say, and this was the point behind me posting what I posted.

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

@StormRaiser

If given a choice between more se* and more wine, people would choose the former. The repercussion of banning polygamy would be much more than banning liquor. I took the example of the Prophet(pbuh) himself forbidding his son-in-law to marry again till the time his daughter was alive. There are several clauses which make polygamy difficult. I think it is time, people realized that this is something that is being taken advantage of and stopped.

If they could have given up wine, they would have given up polygamy too, if it were ordered in that way. Many of the sahaba only married one wife. Yes, it is difficult. I agree that people who can't do it as it should be done should not do it at all.

[quote]

Even though there is no direct correlation, it is implied. If it is let go of in this life, you would have much better in the next life. That is the same reason for having wine in heaven. You would have to understand that this statement has caused grief in the modern world. Suicide bombers are being recruited based on this statement. In my opinion, heaven would not be a place where the worldly pleasures are indulged in.

[/quote]

What kind of an implication do you see? There is nothing that makes the number of heavenly wives inversely proportional to the number of wives one marries in this life. The principal of if you let go of it in this life you'll get better later is not one of the things that applies here. Where you could gain by letting something go is if you abstain of the unlawful or if you give it up in charity or that sort of thing. There is nothing in this connection with marrying less wives.

[quote]

Come on be realistic. For a normal salaried individual do you think you can lead a life without dealing with interest. You would not be able to own a car or a house. The more money that you have in the bank, the more money you get in interest. Also there is no means of investing in any financial instrument since all of them deal with interest and speculation which is not considered right.
[/QUOTE]

Of course a person can lead a normal life without dealing in interest. By dealing in interest, I'm not talking about someone who lets money sit in the bank and then interest is accrued on it and he doesn't use it. People can and do live their lives without taking loans, which would incur interest. Sure, getting a house would take a bit longer. However, there are many car companies that do 0% financing.
There are also investment portfolios where you can invest that are not based on interest.

[psyah]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Actually I do think StormRaiser made a correct observation about Muslims … That we tend to be focused on ritualistic aspects. However, he made the wrong assessment for that ritualism being:

1. Misplaced or overdone
2. That ritualism being the cause of the evil that is being done by certain Muslims

I see that perhaps he is trying to make sense of Islam and the behaviour of some Muslims … In his eyes he sees that the crazy people or angry ones are the same as the most ritualistic people. However, he does not realise that his test is not accurate.

Reason being …

1. There are many more Muslims who are mindlessly ritualistic and not aggressive and hateful rather quite peaceful than those who are aggressive and hateful.

2. There are a lot of non-religious/non-ritualistic Muslims who are involved in these evil things

The correct way to look at it is this:

Islam as a belief system and ideology attracts people of all backgrounds. Islam was very attractive to the poor in the early days … Islam is also very attractive to the educated. But it is also very attractive to the people who have had unstable and traumatic pasts.

A lot of criminals or unstable people are somewhat unpredictable. They come to embrace Islam because of the stability it offers and makes a lot of sense to both the simple minds and the more complex ones. It gives people a sense of belonging. However, that is only the first stage.

If there are people who take vulnerable minds and give them an avenue of belonging and license for them a way to release their rage in a manner that is MADE acceptable to a small circle then the same idea of Islam can become a beacon to magnify and direct the rage that these people naturally have.

Islam is not to be blamed - but the way people are being guided - or should I say misguided.

Coming back to rituals … It is a strong understanding that the rituals within Islam are designed to pacify us - but we need to couple these practices with a desire to be pacified. We need to start looking inwards and not outwards … improving ourselves towards goodness, tolerance, acceptance and indifference rather than complaining about external injustices … for such people have not become content with God and the Will of God …

So here is where we summarise it … Rituals are in fact necessary … but a good guide is as necessary.

Shaykh Ibn Ata’illah, said: “Do not stop mentioning God just because your heart is not present. Forgetting Him completely is worse than being inattentive while you are mentioning him; perhaps He will elevate you from being inattentive to being attentive, and from being attentive to being fully present with Him, and from being fully present with Him to being fully absent from anything but Him; ‘and this is not difficult for God.

“Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest!” (Qur’an 13:28)

[StormRaiser]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

^^

I think this is a very good post. I know you do not need my certificate for it :halo:, but a very thought provoking post. I am busy these days and would reply in a couple of days…

[StormRaiser]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

If they could have given up wine, they would have given up polygamy too, if it were ordered in that way. Many of the sahaba only married one wife. ** Yes, it is difficult. I agree that people who can't do it as it should be done should not do it at all.**

Try explaining this to the average person who is hell bent on polygamy. I have heard of stories, wherein people when they want to marry more, they just divorce their existing wives to keep the total at 4. It is in the light of these instances it is important to look at polygamy from a different perspective. There might have been situations wherein polygamy was essential. These do not exist anymore and I believe it is time to stop it so that people do not take advantage. It is a thought and should be discussed with an open mind.

What kind of an implication do you see? There is nothing that makes the number of heavenly wives inversely proportional to the number of wives one marries in this life. The principal of if you let go of it in this life you'll get better later is not one of the things that applies here. Where you could gain by letting something go is if you abstain of the unlawful or if you give it up in charity or that sort of thing. There is nothing in this connection with marrying less wives.

I believe it is something like you let go of certain pleasures in this life and you would be entitled to more in the afterlife. The promise of unlimited se* in heaven is causing trouble in our times and I do think it is important that we look at it from the proper perspective. There are people who say that the heavenly pleasures are just a metaphor and I agree with them. I believe the pleasures of heaven would not be worldly and the mere presence/sight of God would be greater than everything else.

Of course a person can lead a normal life without dealing in interest. By dealing in interest, I'm not talking about someone who lets money sit in the bank and then interest is accrued on it and he doesn't use it. People can and do live their lives without taking loans, which would incur interest. Sure, getting a house would take a bit longer. However, there are many car companies that do 0% financing. There are also investment portfolios where you can invest that are not based on interest.

I agree with you on this one, though life would have been easier with interest

[StormRaiser]

Re: Are the present days muslims following the ritualistic part of the religion ???

Relax. The point I'm making is that your opinion on how Muslims practice Islam, and why certain practices of Islam were prescribed or prohibited is as credible as a chicken vendor talking about Neurosurgery. I'd listen to him, so as not to seem rude because some day he may just attain the knowledge, but for him/her to lecture me on my faith is rather skewed.

Agree, it might sound ludicrous to hear somebody who is not a muslim talk about these aspects. At times I think it is important to understand the outside picture to understand oneself better.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, what determines whether your opinion has integrity and an honest approach is if you've studied Islam, and then present your points of view in the light of Hadiths, Sunnah, and/or Quran.

I totally disagree with you on this one. I do not believe I am questioning the fundamental ethos. It is just a different way of looking at things. Whole sects have been formed due to differences of opinions.

I do not have to master the Quran, Hadiths or the Sunnah to know that Islam does not propagate suicide bombing and encourage people to bite the hand that serves you. It is just pure plain common sense.

As for your projection of your opinion of Islam; infact you wouldn't be the first. It's rather comical because in order for me to give a keen ear to your opinion, I would have to know that you've gone through some research from within sources I may acknowledge that back up what you're saying. Otherwise it's the same as concocting things which give comfort to the heart even if they be far from the actual truth.

This is all I had to say, and this was the point behind me posting what I posted.

I would not be the last or the first to voice such an opinion. It is not comical when people like Kasab are being recruited based on promises in the afterlife.