Andhra so what religion are the untouchables? Thre are some 300 million untouchables in India. (Mundyaa is an expert on them).
Does it mean they are not Hindu's? Or not good enough to be Hindu's according the upper caste Hindu's?
I believe shudharas are definitly counted as hindus, just like jains and sikhs and buddists.....
Arri Appa is a classic exmaple of how vedic hinduism can assimilate others....
Malik…here is a quote from Dr. Ambedkar for you…
“For the untouchable, Hinduism is a veritable chamber of horrors !”
Those were his views on Hinduism and I can understand that ! He prefered to be called a Buddhist. And whether we agree with his views or not, no one can deny his greatness or his genius. So this was the man who framed India’s constitution. So accuse him of preparing a “Hindu constitution” would be plain stupidity.
A lot of the former “untouchables” converted to Buddhism – I thought you knew that, given your and mundyaa’s vast knowledge on “shoodars”.
Well…anyway…hope I have added to your knowledge by informing you that Ambedkar was a Buddhist.
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[This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited September 11, 2000).]
BK thank you for adding to my knowledge but believe me my point was not about questioning the secular nature of the Indian constitution. But rather it was to enquire about the religous implications of the constitutional language. i.e. that the consitution refers to Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains as Hindu's and not necassarily as separate religions.
Ambedkar was not a Buddhist but preferred to be called a Buddhist - there is a difference BK?. He was as another Indian pointed out a scheduled caste member. Now I would like to know what these people are - are they Hindu's?
It is clear the Indian consitution really only recognises 3 different religous groups - Hindu's (of which Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains are considered a part of), Muslims and Christians.
Are atheists classified as Hindus?
Ullu - I suppose it depends if you are a high caste atheist or a low-class (untouchable) atheist?
[quote]
Originally posted by Malik73:
Ullu - I suppose it depends if you are a high caste atheist or a low-class (untouchable) atheist?
[/quote]
So how are u classified in either case. Please shed more light on legal issues.
Well Ullu this is a question that our Hindu friends can answer better for us. In this discussion this they have said that "Untouchabales"/Scheduled Castes etc are NOT Hindu's - so what are they? It implies that these people are not accepted as Hindu's by high caste Hindu's?
"Untouchabales"/Scheduled Castes etc are NOT Hindu's - so what are they?<<
Malik first of all the very word "Untouchable" is not a politically correct word in India.
The point is not wheather they are Hindus or not but they do not want to be.I can understand that.If I belong to a religion that says I am impure by birth, the first thing I will do is change my religion.
But let me point this out. We are admitting that practices in Hinduism are wrong and trying to reform the religion.See, no problems.It is human to be wrong.
How about you? Since by your defintion nothing can be wrong with Islam, you spend your time justifying Taliban!
Andhra thank you for those insights but I am still puzzled as to the actual faith/religion of the “Untouchables” etc - are they the same as what is called the scheduled castes etc? If they are not strictly Hindu’s then what are they exactly? - they are not atheists or agnostic.
If they dont want to be Hindu (or wont be accepted as such by the higher cates) then why dont they just all become Muslims and Christians on mass?
P.S. I am NOT a supporter of the Taliban’s version of Islam - but you can discuss the tenets of Islam in another string if you want ?
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[This message has been edited by Malik73 (edited September 12, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ullu:
Are atheists classified as Hindus?
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Possibly. Depends on how far you take your atheism/agnosticism.
Of the 6 astika schools of orthodox Hinduism, 2 are classified as agnostic. At least 1 of the others can be considered atheistic.
Of the heterodox schools, one is called charvaka, whose basic tenet is ethical hedonism.
If you are atheist, and you read up and agree with one of these schools, then, sure enough, you can be classified as a Hindu.
Pluralistic traditions - gotta love'em.
Thanks astrofan you have provided some brillinat insights into the multi-faceted nature of Hinduism - how comw you know so much about this religion.
I suppose saying that I’m Hindu wouldn’t be enough?
When discussing or arguing the merits of one Hindu philosophy over another, one must be aware of all sides of the argument, and be able to refute them. Our greatest sages took part in these debates, and chronicled their arguments for and against schools of thought. When studying Hindu philosophy, it’s impossible to avoid these arguments because they are so important at subtely revealing the details of a philosophy. Simply put, by learning one, you have to learn them all.
Well thats really nice to hear Astrofan and thanks for all the excellent input you have given in this discussion so far. Its refreshing to hear a non-political and unbiased approach from the other side
Malik....Ambedkar WAS a Buddhist -- he converted to Buddhism !
As far as the scheduled castes/ tribes go...some converted to Buddhism..others stayed as Hindus.
In India, you can be an aethist and still call yourself a Hindu. So while most Communists in India for example donot believe in God..but they classify themselves as Hindus. And by the way, you had cast doubts on the secular character of our constitution, so I needed to let you know some facts.
BK - I never actually cast doubts on the secular nature of India’s consitution just its wordings in referring to Sikhs, Jains etc. But thanks for the facts anyway
As far as I can see, Hinduism is everything...even Buddhism which rejects many of the central tenents of orthodox Hinduism. So a Buddhist who says Manusmitri (Hindu scripture) is a pile of cack is a Hindu. The sikh who rejects idol-worship and Brahmin superiority is still a Hindu. Hinduism is secular but the Hindutva movement (which claims to be secular) wants to re-invent the glorious age of Hinduism.
help me out here...
Astrofan maybe you can shed some light on Extreme's interesting observations?
[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
*As far as I can see, Hinduism is everything...even Buddhism which rejects many of the central tenents of orthodox Hinduism. So a Buddhist who says Manusmitri (Hindu scripture) is a pile of cack is a Hindu. *
[/quote]
Manusmriti is most likely post-buddha.
f they dont want to be Hindu (or wont be accepted as such by the higher cates) then why dont they just all become Muslims and Christians on mass?<<
Hindus do not care as much for their religion as Muslims seem to do.
Anyway there is no official ex-communication in Hinduism.
So no caste can throw any other caste out.
Wheather high caste or low each has it's identity and traditions.
At the same time there is interaction between high and low castes.
Some former so-called untouchable castes are now agricultural laborers.