I was reading the just released US State Department report on religous freedom in India and it states as follows:-
" There are many religions and a large variety of denominations, groups, and subgroups in the country, but Hinduism is the dominant religion. Under the Constitution, the Buddhist, Jain, and Sikh faiths are considered different from the Hindu religion, but the Constitution often is interpreted as defining Hinduism to include the Buddhist, Jain, and Sikh faiths. This interpretation has been a contentious issue, particularly among the Sikh community." http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/irf/irf_rpt/irf_india.html
This begs the question have since 1947 all Indian Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists been seen as mere offshoots of Hinduism? - a fact confirmed by the Indian constitution.
Jainism and Buddhism are considered to be heterodox Hindu systems, in that they do not accept the divinity of the Vedas, but rather use Upanishadic thought as a basis for their systems. Swami Vivekanand makes the (wild) claim that Buddha was a Hindu, but that this followers misunderstood him and took Buddhism to a different place than maybe what he intended. In any case, both Buddhism and Jainism have had profound effects on the modern Hindu philosophy - Buddhism causes Hindus to codify their thoughts into sutras, based on logical reason. Jainism finds itself littered all over the Hindu stratosphere, most particularly in the doctrine of ahimsa (non-violence), which is an original Jain concept. Gandhi's philosophy of Hinduism, the Karmic Satyagraha, was heavily influenced by his Jain teacher. In both cases, though Jainism and Buddhism are distinct religions, they have a basis in their Hindu roots. How far one takes that basis is their own educated guess.
In the case of Sikhism, Guru Nanak did not particularly set out to create a separate religion, but instead wanted to lay down the "Truth", using Islam and Hinduism as a guide. Certain aspects are based in Hinduism, with other aspects borrowed from Islam (in particular, no idols). It was only after the lineage of 10 gurus that Sikhism evolved into a separate world religion. Note that the Sikh scripture, Guru Granth Sahib, was not started until the fifth guru in the line.
Hindus consider these faiths to be part of the Hindu system because of their similarity and history with regards to Hinduism. However, many Jains, Buddhists, and Sikhs would probably claim that they are not Hindus, they would not deny the history involved.
Thanks for that brilliant detail astrofan... I think that is the kind of language that must be used in the Indian consitution when it implies that Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists are merely Hindu's? Maybe some Indian's can enlighten us further on this point?
Only one state in India Sikkim is Buddist.
Both Budhism and Jainism started about the same time.
But every one was converted back to Hinduism by AdiShankara the missionary.
But the point is this.You may keep on pointing out the similarities but Jainism,Budhism and Sikhism can't be part of Hinduism because they do not practice the Caste system.
So before Hindus make all kinds of claims in hope of assimilating other religions, they should first get rid of Caste system.
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Originally posted by Andhra: Only one state in India Sikkim is Buddist.
Both Budhism and Jainism started about the same time.
But every one was converted back to Hinduism by AdiShankara the missionary.
But the point is this.You may keep on pointing out the similarities but Jainism,Budhism and Sikhism can't be part of Hinduism because they do not practice the Caste system.
So before Hindus make all kinds of claims in hope of assimilating other religions, they should first get rid of Caste system.
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o before Hindus make all kinds of claims in hope of assimilating other religions, they should first get rid of Caste system.**/Q
Isnt that the agenda of hindutva to ASSIMILATE,b/c hindus even minus the jain sikh &buddhist ,are preponderently pervasive in india,eventhough quality of hindu maybe no more than definition of exclusioni.e they are hindu b/c they are not moslem ,sikh,or christian.Hindu knowing there place as majority secured. Harp scare tactics of moslem taking over in population.The rate of difference in rate of reproduction is so disprotionately small that conditions have to remain static for 12000 years (impossible task)that those fear can have credence.
To begin with hinduism is not a religion like established judeo-christian -islamic type.And with amorphousness & porosity in it it tries to absorb all else into it,for unlike islamic it isnt a stickler for purity,absoluteness,&totallity .It is this killing islam by tolerence &love is the immediate danger to 150 million moslems.Encouraging intereligous marriage,lessening emphasis on arabic education ,madrsah,etc.
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Originally posted by sanam:
** It is this killing islam by tolerence &love is the immediate danger to 150 million moslems. **
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Say what? You've got to be kidding me - killing Islam by tolerance and love. How can this be a problem for you?
Killing Islam by denigration, by persecution, by terrorism - that I can see having a problem with. But if you are saying that by giving people a free choice, and having them choose to move away from Islam is a problem, then you and I are on very opposite sides of the fence.
Buddhism was one religion which at a time completly overwhelmed hinduism in india...but when hinduism found a sure footing, they promptly pushed it out of india and assimilated what was left of it by making idols of buddha...
Jainism was never powerful enough to be substentail threat to hinduism but was assimiliated anyway...
Sikhism was militant, and believed in one God..but hinduism is trying to assimilate it too....
which brings us to a saying by a hindutva leader who said Islam could have easily been assimilate dhad they made an idol of prophet muhammad pbuh....
Sikhism was militant, and believed in one God..but hinduism is trying to assimilate it too....<<
Actually it is Hindusim that is trying to change and copy Sikhism. In northern India the hindus are copying Sikh way of worshipping. In North America Sikh tradition of Langar (sitting together and eating together) has been copied in Hindu Temples all over, Hindus call it Priti Bhoj.
All of us learn from each other and grow. Sikhism has its own Guru Granth Sahib unlike Buddhism and Jainism. It will never be assimilated...maybe in future Hinduism will look more like Sikhism.
Sikhism came about through contact with muslims. That is why there are many similar traits. You are living in a fool's paradise if you think that Sikhs will not be absorbed into hinduism. The inter-marriage is rife and you yourself are a strong supporter of hindutva beliefs judging by your comments on this site.
Astrofan,
I keep reading that hinduism is so many different things, you, yourself posted an article called 'Trying to define Hinduism'. Can you tell me what is the purpose of Hindutva?
I don't think that Sikhism will be absorbed into Hinduism. The seeds of Sikhism had spread to different parts of the world. Buddhism has spread to other parts of Asia,even though it has been absorbed in India,and they cannot be called off-shoot Hindus,what does a Zen Buddhist in Japan have in common with a Hindu in India,Buddhism is the second fastest growing religion in the world. There are attempts by Hindus to try to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism, I think Hindus see things in others which maybe they lack and try to call it their own,Buddha is called as a re-incarnation of Vishnu,so has Guru Nanak and some even call Muhammad a re-incarnation of Vishnu,I wouldn't be suprised if Jesus hasn't been called a re-incarnation of Vishnu by some Hindu scholar. There have been plenty of opportunity of Sikhism to be absorbed into Hinduism,ie during British rule when a lot of Sikh temples were put in the care of Hindu Mahants,when there was a price on the head of every Sikh during Mughal Rule and were in hiding,but Sikhs are still here and they are here to stay.
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Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
**Astrofan,
Can you tell me what is the purpose of Hindutva?**
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This is somewhat of a rhetorical question, but hey, you asked and I'll try to answer (though I'm sure you'll disagree with what I'm gonna say - such is the way).
Hindutva is a movement to take back from Christians and Muslims what they have stolen from the Hindus - their sense of ancestral traditions, their broken and destroyed temples, and their raped and pillaged villages. It is a movement to right the wrongs committed against Hindus, who pacifism has allowed them to be continually attacked, taken over, and bullied in the last 1500 years of modern history. It is a movement to correct perceived ills by Muslims and Christians who force conversion on Hindus, by denigrating their people and culture, and tearing asunder families. It is a movement to return Hinduism to its former glory.
That is Hindutva. It is a movement spearheaded by the RSS and VHP among others. Here is the U.S., those organizations are the HSS (Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh) and the VHP-A (Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America).
The HSS sponsors retreat camps for Hindu youth, as well as weekly Shaka classes; for adults they offer yoga lessons and political action. The VHP-A similarly offers a political voice and retreat camps, and also sponsors the Hindu Students Council.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited September 07, 2000).]
sounds good. are they able to convert the hundreds of thousands of muslims, christians, sikhs back to hinduism?
if not then what about the rights of these muslims, christians, sikhs to change their old perverted sick lifestyles and worshipping methods.
last time i checked hindus were still converting to other religions..... in mass numbers for obvious reasons. now why should they still keep on going to temples when they would like churches mosques and guwardwaras. why should they keep on worshipping rats, monkeys and cows?
** hindutva is a proof of what Quaid-e-Azam and other leaders had said all along.... so its payback time for all of these muslims christians sikhs whose ancestors made great sacrifices to get themselves free from crooked brahmans perverted ways of preaching. hinutva isnt a victim here it has always been the oppressor.... look around current indian and the number of brahman prostitutes and shoodars for a proof. **
[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited September 07, 2000).]
Sikhism came about through contact with muslims. That is why there are many similar traits. You are living in a fool's paradise if you think that Sikhs will not be absorbed into hinduism. The inter-marriage is rife and you yourself are a strong supporter of hindutva beliefs judging by your comments on this site.
**
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The commonality of Sikhism and Islam ends with the concept of one God. Sikhism believes that there are many paths to God. Also, Sikh gurus are teachers - who are helping the followers to find God there are no Prophets in Sikhism.
One of the reason Sikhism will never be absorb is because of the central Granth (Guru Granth Sahib). Nothing can or will ever replace Guru Granth. Sikhism has always been an open religion accepting of everybody, it has survived last 500 hundred years. We are not insecure about our religion or its teachings therefore we have no need to shut others out.
As I said before future Hinduism speacialy in Northern India will look more and more like Sikhism. Hindu religious sermons on TV in India look very similar to Sikh religious ceremony - Hinduism is adopting similar ways of singing bajans as Sikhs have been doing from centuries.
Hinduism will look more like Sikhism in future. Sikhism has very deep and positive impact on all Indians, it has changed the way Indians used to think, it is a sign of great hope and pride for all Indians. Sikhs and their Gurus are role model of selfless sacrifices and bravery to fight tryranny.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited September 07, 2000).]
rani...u r so naive...
This is how hinduism absorbs others...
include some elements of others in hinduism...give the false impression to the other ppl that look we are like you so why should we be separate...and when mighty river falls into the sea it is lost...just like buddhism in india.....
I disagree with you, at that time Brahmanism was very strong beside Buddhism is a passive religion...it made it followers weak and it preached against war and killing. India was taken over by invader due to adherance to Buddist philosphy. I am no fan of Buddhist philosphy.
Sikhism is vibrant living religion...Sikhs are ready to fight for injustices and stand behind their beliefs...you will find no Sikh agreeing to idol worship or giving power to priests.
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Originally posted by mundyaa:
**
if not then what about the rights of these muslims, christians, sikhs to change their old perverted sick lifestyles and worshipping methods.
**
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This is where Hindutva steps in. The more you call something "sick and perverted", the more anger you instill. Instead of objectively comparing two faiths, you have started slinging mud in the direction of one to favor the other.
The Koran states that if a Kafir messes with Islam, he is to be dealt with. Hindutva just seeks the same against non-Hindus. It's really all there is to it.
This is where Hindutva steps in. The more you call something "sick and perverted", the more anger you instill. Instead of objectively comparing two faiths, you have started slinging mud in the direction of one to favor the other. <<<
Well why dont you prove to us first that what you preach under hinduism can NOT be qualified as perverted and sick. drinking milk with rats is sick. eating a dead womans ****** is disgusting. worshipping lingum is perverted. devdasi culture is perverted. shoodar system is a brainchild of a sick mind and reminiscent of power hungry tribes of stone age cult.
The Koran states that if a Kafir messes with Islam, he is to be dealt with. Hindutva just seeks the same against non-Hindus. It's really all there is to it.<<<<
so are you saying that ur old ways in which brahman screwed their own kind were flawed.... and now you gotta turn to other minorities? well if you want to copy Islam anyways then lets change hinduism and all the shoodar system devdasi, stone age worshipping practices with it... shall we?