Are Sikhs Hindus in Disguise??

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Peace be on you, friendz !

Here is something from my side...

THE SIKH RELIGION – a brief sketch

:::: SOME BASIC FACTS

· The word Sikh means a disciple
· The Sikhs regard Baba Nanak as the founder of their faith. History, however, shows that the Sikh religion in its present form was founded by later successors of Baba Nanak. Baba Nanak lived from 1469 to 1539 AD
· Place of origin; Punjab, north India
· Sacred books; Guru Granth

:::: INTRODUCTION
The Sikh movement started in India as a small group of devoted disciples who gathered around the saintly person of Baba Nanak. Baba Nanak was a contemporary of Babar, the first Moghul Emperor of India, and was born in April 1469 AD, in a village called Nankana Sahib, not far from Lahore. Although born in a Hindu family, he was disillusioned by the Hindu caste system, the power of the Brahmin priests, and the custom of "satti" in which the widows were burned on the funeral pyre of their husbands.

There is considerable evidence in historical records that Baba Nanak embraced Islam, used to perform the Islamic rituals and undertook the pilgrimage to Mecca. These records also point to the fact that Baba Nanak did not found any new religion. Over the years his disciples and successors, however, did form a new identity and a religion for themselves.

After the death of Baba Nanak, there came a succession of nine Gurus (teachers) who formalized the teachings of the various Gurus, organized the Sikhs into a proper community and implemented the various social institutions found among the Sikhs today. Below are given the names of the various Sikh Gurus, their periods and the periods of their guruship

  1. Guru Nanak 1469﷓1539
  2. Guru Angad 1504﷓1552 (Guru 1539﷓1552)
  3. Guru Amar Das 1479﷓1574 (Guru 1552﷓1574)
  4. Guru Rani Das 1534﷓1581 (Guru 1574﷓1581)
  5. Guru Arjan 1563﷓1606 (Guru 1581﷓1606)
  6. Guru Har Gobind 1595﷓1644 (Guru 1606﷓1644)
  7. Guru Har Rai 1630﷓1661 (Guru 1644﷓1661)
  8. Guru Har Krishna 1656﷓1664 (Guru 1661﷓1664)
  9. Guru Tegh Bahadur 1621﷓1675 (Guru 1664﷓1675)
  10. Guru Gobind Singh 1666﷓1708 (Guru 1675﷓1708)

Excluding the period of Baba Nanak, the period of the nine successors lasted 169 years.

These Gurus served as the spiritual and temporal heads of the Sikh community. Each Guru was nominated by his predecessor on the basis of his spiritual ability and worthiness. But, starting with the Fourth Guru, the office became hereditary in the line of his male descendants. Each of the Gurus contributed something which helped the community:

Guru Nanak taught the Unity and love of God
Guru Amar Das established the "langar" or communal eating facility which helped significantly in fostering the bonds of mutual brotherhood
Guru Ram Das initiated the building of the city of Amritsar
Guru Arjan established a number of other Sikh towns in Punjab and built the now famous Hari Mandir, or the Golden Temple, at Amritsar. It was during the time of this Fifth Guru that confrontations with the Muslims started. Guru Arjan died while in Muslim custody and gave the Sikhs their first martyr.
Guru Har Gobind, Guru Har Rai and Guru Har Krishna ﷓the sixth, seventh and eighth Gurus﷓did not make any significant contribution to the Sikh religion and spent most of their efforts in militarily organizing the Sikh community.
Guru Tegh Bahadur was the surviving son of Guru Har Gobind. During his period, Moghul King Aurangzeb was actively pursuing the policy of Islamization in India. Guru Tegh Bahadur opposed many of the Emperor's policies. The Guru was imprisoned and later executed and is revered by the Sikhs as a great martyr.
Guru Gobind Singh was the tenth and the last Guru of the Sikhs. He took up the office at the age of nine and for the next 33 years consolidated the military power of the Sikhs, leading them against the Islamic powers with considerable success. In fact most of the visible aspects of the Sikh community today owe their origin to Guru Gobind Singh. He gave them the name of "Khalsa" meaning the Pure. The male members of the community were given the title of Singh (lion), and the females that of Kaur (princess). He also introduced the five symbols for the Sikhs known commonly as the five K's. These are:

• Kesh (uncut hair)
• Kangha (comb)
• Kirpan (sword)
• Kara (steel bangle)
• Kach (shorts)

Guru Gobind Singh's four sons were all killed during his lifetime. When the Tenth Guru himself was lying on his deathbed, he told the Sikh community that from then on no more human Gurus will appear and that their sacred scriptures, the Granth, would be their Guru. That is why the Sikhs call their sacred book Guru Granth.

:::: ESSENTIAL BELIEFS OF THE SIKH FAITH

· The most important belief of the Sikh religion concerns the Unity of God. God is One, the creator of all things, existing from beginning and the source of all man's happiness.
· Man can become one with God only by walking on the path of the Gurus. By sincere worship and meditation, the Sikhs believe, one can experience God.
· The sacred book, Guru Granth, can lead the followers to find God and salvation. No more religious leaders are necessary after the Granth was declared the Guru of the Sikhs.
· Salvation results with a love﷓union with God. Until this union takes place, individuals may go through many It should be noted that Guru Granth does not present the Sikh reincarnations.

It should be noted that Guru Garanth does not present the Sikh beliefs in any systematic manner. The Granth emphasizes the stimulating aspects of its teachings on the human heart, to love God – (the basic theme of every religion).

:::: WORSHIP IN THE SIKH RELIGION

The focal point of all Sikh worship is the Guru Granth. In the gurdwara, the Sikh place of worship, the Sikhs sing hymns from the scriptures and members of the congregation give readings and expositions from the Granth. No weekly holy day is observed by the Sikhs.

Although the Sikhs reject the symbolization of God by idols, the paintings of Baba Nanak are highly revered and displayed prominently in the Gurdwara.

In their homes, the Sikhs recite various shabads or verses from the Granth. The most important of these is Guru Nanak's Japji which is recited silently by the Sikhs every mor~ Below are given some selected verses from this Japji to give the reader some idea of the fundamental beliefs of this religion:

· "There is One God whose name is true, the Creator. Devoid of fear and enmity, Immortal, Unborn, Self﷓Existent
· "The True One was in the beginning; the True One was in the primal age
· "The True One is now also, 0 Nanak; the True One also will be
· "The hunger of the hungry for God diminishes not though they
· obtain the load of the worlds
· "If man should have hundred thousand devices, even one would not assist him in finding God
· "How shall man become true before God? How shall the veil of falsehood be rent?
· "By walking, 0 Nanak, according to the Will of the Commander as ordained
· "Bodies are produced by His order; His order cannot be described
· "By His order souls are infused into bodies; by His order greatness is obtained
· "By His order men are high or low; by His order they obtain predestined pain or pleasure
· "By His order some obtain their reward; by His order others wander in transmigration
· "All are subject to His order; none escapes from it. He who understands God's order, 0 Nanak, is never guilty of egoism
· "Who can sing His power? Who has power to sing it? "Who can sing His gifts or know His signs?
· "Who can sing His attributes, His greatness, His deeds? "Who can sing His knowledge whose study is laborious? "Who can sing Him, Who fashions the body and then destroys it? "Who can sing Him, Who takes away life and then restores it? "Who can sing Him, Who appears to be far, but is actualy so near?
· "Who can sing Him, Who is AU﷓Seeing and Omnipresent? "In describing Him there would be no end"

:::: COMPARATIVE STUDY

The Sikhs claim that Baba Nanak founded their faith which, they profess, is distinct from either Hinduism or Islam. Historical records, however, prove that Baba Nanak, who was born and raised in a Hindu family, later accepted Islam. Also, many of the shabads of the Granth are simply Gurmukhi renderings of the Quranic verses. Similarly, the concept of God presented in the Granth is exactly the same as given in the Quran. Many of God's attributes mentioned in the Granth are again translations of the Quranic attributes of God.

It is for this reason that many western scholars of religion do not regard Sikhism as an independent religion but an offshoot of Islam.

The Ahmadis believe, and this belief is borne out by ample historical evidence, that Baba Nanak was a Muslim saint and a mystic who was greatly affected by the general lack of education and awakening in his agrarian community in the Punjab. His teachings were directed essentially at his own people and that is the reason why Sikhism later developed as a strongly ethnic religion.

The beliefs and modes of worship of Sikh religion were greatly influenced by the surrounding Hindu tradition and environment (as is true with every faith). The principle of reincarnation, prostrating in front of the Granth, and the use of Baba Nanak's portraits in the gurdwara, are a few examples.

xalim ::::: [email protected]

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Rani, I did not say that Sikhs come from only two classes. Read that paragraph again, I said...few brahmins turned towards SIkhism......mostly Khatri and other lower classes.....

My observation is they came from all four castes........but fewer brahmins and more from other castes.

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LOL@Zalim

Ppl have been proving for 3 days that Sikhs are Hindus......now we will be proving next 3 days that Sikhs are Muslims..... :)

I have read this Ahmdiya interpretation of Sikhism before. It is nice to knwo that Ahmadiyas respect Baba Nanak lot(my friend NYAhmadi is one of them), but claiming that Sikhism is offshoot of Islam is as ridiculous as saying Sikhism is offshoot of Hinduism.

Sikhism has deep roots in the place, people and country it was born. It is natural that it has lot of similarities to the exisiting religions of the place.

it is interesting that Ahmadiyas who are 99.99% Muslims and absolutely indistinguishable to the outsiders from other muslims are 'not Muslims' but Sikhs with a slight similarity are 'Muslims'.

hey zalim...thanks for adding to the confusion anyways;-)

CM

ps: sorry for bringing Ahmadiyas into the discussion.....it seems that no thread in Religion section is complete without their mention :)...as mentioned by someone before....it should be taken as a compliment.

BTW, Ahmadis and Sikhs have one thing in common....actually something very important...that is that both share their birthplace....both are the true religions of Punjab.

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so here is what i understand... one khatri by the name of "Guru Nanak" got fed up with hindus and their caste system.

He basically started preaching this new concept "religion" where he told people to

  1. worship ONE god.... (which one out of the many did he pick? krishna, ram, ganga, lingum what pls clarify).

  2. he preached equality.

I think the man pretty much hit the nail in the head by doing that. U need one supreme power who created this world and you definitely want to have equality.

are these the only differences between hindu and sikh religions?

But the main question I have is why did hindus wait for ages to come up with a more realistic preachable religion that was based on equality for such a long time? i.e untill after Islam had arrived in India..... one would be very tempted to state the obvious that "sikhism was created so that hindus who were still still not so sure about converting to Islam would convert to sikhism which had the qualities that Islam preached, yet was not so foreign to them".

These two concepts might be borrowed from other religions like christianity, islam or whatever but one thing that sardars did start is qawaali. the most moving music, spiritual and mistic.

[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited January 31, 2000).]

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waise te nothing makes sense after you put your interpretation to it mundeya....but what does your last line in the last post have to do with rest of the thread or anything else?

Qawaali was started by sardars???hain?? when did that happen??? so your knowledge about music is also as limited as religious mysticism.

I love qawali too....sometime listen Hazrat Sultan Bahu's dohRay sung by NFK......it will give you lot of inner peace......

CM

26

Mundyaa,

Sikhism and Islam are different than each other as night and day.

Sikhism is an eastern (mystic) religion. It deosn't believe in Prophets, we call our religious guides Gurus (from sanskrit-teacher). We don't think God appoints anybody as its spokesman. The Guru helps us to find God within ourselves.

Secondly Sikhism is absolutely aganist catorgorizing people as believer and non-believer. It believes every human being is a child of the same creator regardless of their religion. Therefore it does not seek converts. According to Sikhism as long as you are a good person you can follow any spritual path or religion you will achieve God. So there is no reason for conversion.

Sikhism believes in reincarnation and that soul never dies we are born again many times and by our good deeds we can attain Moksha.

In Sikhism men and women are equal in each every one It believes in monogamy, polygamy is considered sinful.

Sikhism is a Universal relgion and in our prayers we pray for everbody not just for Sikhs. We end our ceremony by saying "Nanak naam Chardi Kala tere bhane Sarbat Kaa Bhalla" (Nanak in your name I may have uplifting spirit and in your name I pray for the well being of the whole humanity).

Love for whole humanity is the central theme of Sikhism that is the reason Sikh Gurudawaras are open to everybody. Lots of non-Sikhs attend the service or just partake the delicious Langar (Lunch/dinner).

In the end you can see that Sikhism and Islam have completely different philosphies from each other.

27

CM

BTW, Ahmadis and Sikhs have one thing in common....actually something very important...that is that both share their birthplace....both are the true religions of Punjab.

Not true. True religion is for all mankind and is not exclusive to Punjab. And I say that as a Punjabi.

Rani

In the end you can see that Sikhism and Islam have completely different philosphies from each other.

No I can't. I see that Sikh religion was born through rejection of the old hindu values of caste segregation and bride-burning. Also in the hindu vedas women are considered low creatures. With muslim rule these perceptions changed and killing of newborn daughters was discouraged.

Only a blind person could fail to see the muslim influence here. All this spiritual jargon you are giving us was the basis of islamic sufi thoughts centuries before Sikh religion was born. It is clear that sufis influenced the birth of this new religion during their time in India although Sikh religion branched off into something different.

Islam believes in justice, peace and One God. Also injustice must be acted against which sikh religion also seems to have taken on board. So it's not as different as you think. Islam rejects idol worship and so does sikh religion.

You have been reading too much hindu hate literature by made up writers like "Anwar Sheikh".

In islam we are told to spread the word of Allah (swt) to all people...because we do not want to see our sikh and hindu friends burn in hell :)

So don't be ungrateful by rejecting the truth that has been brought before you. That is not part of being a good person.

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i thought we were comparing hinduism and sikhism.... but i should have made that more clear for a sardar.

in any case... if sikhism preaches such great values then why is it that, sikhism did not spread and the only places we see sardars are in punjab? in other words its not even close to being a global religion. sikhs dont even have a country of their own and are at the mercy of hindus and Pakistanies to preach at their own guru worshipping spots.

Islam on the other hand is a global religon. Its in the hearts of men and women from every continent race and color. I dont think u are even entitled to a comparison. Sikhs are just reformed hindus who were brave enough to go beyond the shackles of perverted brahman its teachings and caste system. And I would go as far as admiring Guru nanak for copying the best of qualities that Islam had to offer.

Too bad for the rest of the world sikhism will die in the minds of the few that he preached to and their generation.

btw: u should still admitt the obvious that by preaching equality and by preaching to one God... Guru Nanak must have tried to bring sardars closer to Muslims than hindus.

[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited February 01, 2000).]

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mundyaa..."in any case... if sikhism preaches such great values then why is it that, sikhism did not spread and the only places we see sardars are in punjab."

Well, it's clear that you haven't been to other states in India. Thats the reason you seem to be under the impression that there are Sikhs only in Punjab. They don't have missionaries going around asking people to convert to their religion (which is the only way a religion can rapidly grow), so I guess that it doesn't spread as rapidly. One more thing is that, Sikhs in general are an educated class and the rate of increase in population is also not as high as in other religions.

Rani...
"Contempt for Brahmins not true many of my good friends are brahmins.."

But I won't be surprised even if there is a large section of people in India who hate Brahmins. It is the fashionable and politically correct thing to do these days. Thats why you see any Tom, Dick or Lallo in Indian politics today uses anti-Brahmin rhetoric to gather votes. Most people are so mis-informed about Brahmins so it's no surprise. A lot of Pakistani friends seem to think that India's "ruling class" (as they put it) are Brahmins --- I haven't heard of a bigger joke !!!

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Bombay Kid, Rani, Xtreme, and Mundyaa
Ladies and gentlemen, please be more polite to your fellow gupies and to other religions in your messages. I will delete any message i think is attacking other members, religions or using profane words.

Thank you.

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Only a blind person could fail to see the muslim influence here. All this spiritual jargon you are giving us was the basis of islamic sufi thoughts centuries before Sikh religion was born.<<

Actually, Sufis were influenced by concept of toleration universalism and love for all mankind as preached by eastern relgions (Hinduism and Budhism). The Scholar of Islam and muslims do not consider Sufisism as part of Islam.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited February 01, 2000).]

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Hmmmmm…now why do I get a warning ??? I don’t think I’ve used any profanity or indulged in personal attacks !!

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited February 01, 2000).]

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Not being a scholar of sikhism, i would like to know what chann mahi singh says about these quotes i picked up from varsha bhosle column.

  • Taha hum adhik tapasya sadhi / Mahakal kalika aradhi ~ Guru Govind Singh
    (There I worshipped and did penance to seek Kali.)

  • Ram katha jug jug atal / Sab koi bhakhat net Suragbas Raghuver kara / Sagri puri samet Jo en Katha sune aur gaave / Dukh pap tah nikat na aave ~ Guru Govind Singh
    (The story of Ram is immortal and everyone should read it. Ram went to heaven along with the whole city. Whoever listens to or sings His story, will be free of sin and sorrow.)

  • Kahaiya Hinduan daro na ab tum / Im likho pathon dil sain Guru Nanak ki gadi par / Ab hain Tegh Bahadur Unko jo Muhummadi kar lihoon / To ham hain sab sadar Arya Dharma rakhak pragatiyo hain ~ Guru Tegh Bahadur
    (Hindus, do not fear, Guru Tegh Bahadur is Guru Nanak's successor. If Muslims bother you, I'll take care of them. For I am the protector of Hinduism.)

  • Tin te sun Siri Tegh Bahadur / Dharam nibaahan bikhe Bahadur Uttar bhaniyo, dharam hum Hindu / Atipriya ko kin karen nikandu Lok parlok ubhaya sukhani / Aan napahant yahi samani Mat mileen murakh mat loi / Ise tayage pramar soi Hindu dharam rakhe jag mahin / Tumre kare bin se it nahin ~ Guru Tegh Bahadur's reply to Aurangzeb's ordering him to embrace Islam.
    (In response, Shri Tegh Bahadur says, My religion is Hindu and how can I abandon what is so dear to me? This religion helps you in this world and that, and only a fool would abandon it. God himself is the protector of this religion and no one can destroy it.)

  • Sakal jagat main Khalsa Panth gaje / Jage dharam Hindu sakal bhand bhaje ~ Guru Govind Singh.
    (The Khalsa sect will roar around the world. Hinduism will awaken, its enemies will flee.)

In fact, last one in complete, is even stronger

*Vedahun vidit dharma pracharyun / Gohat kalamka vishva nivaryun Sakal jagat mein Khalsa Panth gaajey / Jagey dharm Hindu sakal bhand bhajey - Guru Govind Singh (May I preach the Vedas to the whole mankind / May I remove the blot of cow-slaughter from the whole world / May the Khalsa Panth reign supreme / Long live Hinduism and falsehood perish)

Are they fake or out of context. if they are not fake, how they should be interpreted.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited February 03, 2000).]

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mundayya (post on 31st), points 2) 3) and 7) that rani posted of sikhism are perhaps not ones similar to islam. islam does not say that god can be approched by many paths. there is single well defined path and rest are doomed to hell. as far as man-woman equality is concerned, two female witnesses equal one male witness. spiritually, god is not within person for islam, it is someone different who will punish and reward on day of resurrection, no question of being god. achiving god is not a concept in abrahmic religions like islam or christianity. on the other hand certain philosophies in hinduism talk about god and human being the same, only u have to rediscover it etc.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited February 03, 2000).]

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I would post second house of bhairov by namdevji (translation by sant singh khalsa, no question of authenticity since it is part of siri guru granth sahib). wonder what chaan mahi has to say on that since the word Hindu has come quite often in this excerp.

bhairov first tells the story of hiranyakashyap and pralhad, which i am not repeating (for those who don't know hindu mythology, it is story of lord vishnu taking incarnation to save his devotee pralhad)

after than namdevji writes

The sultan said "Listen Naam Dayv, let me see the actions of your Lord| | The Sultan arrested Naam Dayv, and said "Let me see your beloved Lord | | Pause | | "Bring this dead cow back to life Otherwise, I shall cut your head here and now" | | Naam Dayv answered, "O king, how can this happen? No one can bring dead to life| | I can not do anything by my own actions. Whatever Lord does, that alone happens| | The arrogant king was enraged by the reply. He incited an elephant to attack| | Naam Dayv's mother began to cry and she said "why don't you abandon your Lord Raam and worship Lord Allah"| | Naam Dayv answered "i am not your son and you are not my mother. Even if body dies, I will still sing the praises of the Lord."| | The elephant attacked him by the trunk but Naam Dayv was saved, protected by the lord| | * The king said "The Qazis and Mullahs bow down to me but this Hindu trampled my honor| | * The people pleaded with the king "Hear our prayer, oh king, take the Naam dayv's weight in gold and release him| | The king replied "If I take goldthen I will be consigned to hell, by forsaking my faith and gathering worldly wealth"| | With his feet in chains Naam Dayv kept the beat with his hands, singing the praises of the Lord"| | "Even if the Ganges and Jamuna flow backwards, I will still continue singing praises of the Lord| | Three hours passed and even then the Lord of three worlds has not come| | Playing on the instrument of the feathered wings, the Lord of universe came, mounted on the eagle, Garura| | He cherished His devotee aand the lord came mounted on the eagle, garura | | The Lord said to him "If you wish, I shall turn the earth sideways, If you wish, I shall turn it upside down| | If you wish I shall bring the dead cow to life. Everyone will see and be convinced"| | Naam Dayv prayed and milked the cow. He brought the calf to the cow and milked her| | When the pitcher was filled with milk, Naam Dayv took it and placed it before the king| | The king went into his palace and his heart was troubled | | Through the Qazis and the Mullahs, king offered a prayer "Forgive me, please, oh Hindu, I am just a cow before you"| | Naam Dayv said, "Listen oh king; have I done the miracle| | The purpose of the miracle is that you, O king should walk on the path of truth and humility"| | Naam Dayv became famous everywhere. The Hindus all went together with Naam Dayv| |

Now which Lord was Naam Dayv praying? Which Lord sits on Garura? Which religion has concept of three worlds and lord of three worlds? Why sultan said that this hindu sullied his honor? Why Naam Dayv did not agree when his mother advised him to abandon Lord Raam and worship Lord Allah?

Maybe Chaan Maahi can tell us.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited February 03, 2000).]

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ZZ,

The very essesence of Sikhims is respect for all mankind regardless of their religion or status in life. I am in process of reading Guru Granth in English my first attempt, can you tell me where you found the story quoted in your posting (what page) or the original wordings of the verse.

P.S. I have never read or heard any stories from Guru Granth, lots of examples and analogies but no stories.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited February 03, 2000).]

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www.sikhnet.com (look at page around 1160-1165 of guru granth sahib)

nope.. i gave the entire excerp just to show how things are twisted. if someone wants to paint sikhism as an movement against hinduism or whatever, and argue contempt for brahmins and so on, there is ground to say that these arguments have political reason and not religious.

38

ZZ, It is late in the night...I won't have much time to respond even if I want to.
What I am wondering is that you were missing throughout this thread and came in and all of sudden started asking ChannMahi some question after your long posts. What is that about?

I am not a custodian of Sikhism or scholar to defend it. I believe if it is a true religion of mankind , it will survive all the tests. If not, it will go to dust. That is the true about any philosophical/religious/scientific theory. is it not?

If you did that since I said "there is some contempt in the sikh psyche against brahmins"
Let me say a few words on that. Did I qoute any book any verse on that you have to counter-qoute? No. That was my observation. I grew up in Punjab all my life. I have lived, been fed, have played and gone to school with sikhs. I know when I say that. It is true. That contempt is against the brahminical system not against brahmins as persons. If I deny that, I would be lying about what I have observed in my life. Now believe it or not thats is my sincere statement of my observation...I am not making it to make someone happy or someone sad....it does not meananyhtign to me anymore.

It probably goes way back. When pandit came home to make Guru Nanak wear 'janeyoo', Nanak refused and questioned the 'janeyoo'? Verse goes something like "eh janeyoo jee ka haiee taaN Paanday ghat, na eh jale na mal laggay..." something like that. Guru Nanak outright condemned the Brahmin in these verses. Are you trying to convince me to deny that?

Now if you say, then Why Guru Teg Bahadur, gave his life to save the same 'janayeoo' after another 200 years? It is about choices....peacfeul choices. Choice of people to believe what people want to believe.

It is a very big change I have gone in last few months when thinking about religions. Sikhism is about right of people to believe in what they want to believe. Its not the only path...but one of the paths...so it should be naturally tolerant. When I think about this incident that First Guru condemns the janeyoo and the pandit but the Ninth Guru saves the pandit and the janeyoo......it is a very important to understand this. Janeyoo that Nanak condemned represented the brahminical, mannu samriti, caste system, exploitation of lower classes and looting by brahmins in the name of Religion. On the other hand,when Teg Bahadur saved the janeyoo and pandit, he was saving the right of people to believe in their religion....and he gave his life for that. Is there any other defender of human rights, who has given his life willfully to save the religion which his own philosophy and religion condemns? Isn't that great.

The verse regarding Kalika....is from I beleive Bachitar Natak. It is a very controversial book and many scholars of histroy and theology say that it is not a writing by Guru Gobind Singh. I am not saying that because the word Kalika and Devi etc . is mentioned in it. You can find that if you read about the book a bit more. There are many interpretation of that book available.... No otherwriting other than guru Granth Sahib is required religious teaching.

Rgarding Nam Dev's verse...I have never read it before(then I have not read much about anythign anyway)....But as for as which Lord? There is only one Lord my brother ZZ. No matter what you call Him. One thing that is very clear if you read any portion of guru Granth Sahib is that, you don't worry about what you call Him. It is the same person. By your logic, does it mean that when you read " awal Allah noor upayea qudrat ke sabh banday, aik noor te sabh jagg upjjeya kaun bhalle kaun manday", it is telling us that Sikhs are Muslims? One thing is clear , atleast in my mind, Gurbani does not care what you call God...but He is one and the same.

Now you can ask, then why Nam dev is insisting on not to say Allah but only Ram... That is the real point my brother. Its about freedom. Its about letting one to follow whatever path one follows to realize God. No force is tolerable. No conversion is required. That is the theory.

Now, as for as I understand your real reason is to ask me does it mean Sikhism and Hinduism is same thing? No it is not. Sikhism was born on a land where Hinduism and Islam were the dominant religions. Its followers' way of life is certainly inlfuenced by them. There is not a reason to deny it. These similarities and historical references don't mean a thing when you see what it means to really be a Sikh.

I also understand that, your reason of targeting your posts towards me, is you don't really like me having a soft corner for Pakistani people. Let me tell you I am not enemy of Hinduism or Hindus. But if you think one can use the tactics that Aurangzeb used against Kashmiri Brahmins, twisitng their arm to deny them beleive in what they thought they were, I will stand by my words any day.

A famous Punjabi poet(Surjit Patar), and a Marxist at that, said once,

jis taig de ghaat Guru uttray,
uss taig toN khoon nai sukda.
bhaveiN tilak laga ke aa jaavay
dastaar sajja ke aa javay,
sathoN Aurangzeb nai luk'da.

(The sword that killed Teg Bahadur, never dries from blood(of innocents). We can recognize Aurangzeb very well, even if he comes with a Tillak on his forehead or Turban on his head)

When you try to prove, even with your well meaning arguments and sincere heart, that Sikhs are not this and that, you are denying them the right to be what they think or believe they are. and thats is no less intolerable than any forced conversion.

I know Hindus, may be out of their sincerity, try to portray the image you tried to do in above posts and then complain that Sikhs get angry at that behaviour. What do you want them to do? Burn their book and start reciting Jai Bajrang Bali? If one wants to recite that he can do it without burning the book. Its his choice. I will be the first one to support his right to do that.(atleast untill he grabs people from dhaun and throws them in deep sky never to come back down on earth)

Is it a crime if Sikhs believe that they are different from Hindus, as long as they don't start killing anyone on that basis? Of Course if one does that, should be condemned...I mean the killing part.

As I stated earlier, as a result of some soul searching lately, I have gone extremely tolerant in my thoughts...so nothings really bothers me much....I remember the time when I used to get irritated by Sardar jokes....but infact I heard one from someone on Rag today....and enjoyed it a lot. Do you have one to tell?:)

I know people here on forums are always on some kind of jehad or the other(now before someone brings some kind of hadith in front of me, I did not mean that Jehad)....but guys...religion is not about war...but about peace inside out souls and co-existence...provided justice and fairness.

CM

39

ZZ, I read your last post again, and then went back to check my posts in this thread to see what motivated you to make these 3 posts.

Was it mention of RSS/Shiv Sena? or Was it Extreme Hinduvata?

I am sorry if the mention of these words in any unfavourable manner have caused you any uncomfort. That was not my intention

CM

40

a question to friendly neighborhood Hindu DBA BombayKid!

As per a report in New Delhi Times, the Indian Government has banned the shooting of one Indian film called 'water' (pani). This banned was led by the fundamental Hindus, who demonstrated and destroyed the film set of Deepa Mehta, resulting in thousand of dollar loss to the producer,under the pretext that the story depicts a Hindu widow in love with a 'achhoot' boy, and this, as per the demonstrators is considered a sacrilege to Hindus. The actress Shabana Azami was the central role in this film and to do the justice to her role she had even shaved her head.

Had a 'achhout widow' been in love with a Brahman boy, would the Hindus be mad as they were in the above case???