Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

[indopak]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

But that hardly changes the fact that there is systematic discrimination against Muslims throughout the country. If you have a Muslim name in India, there is a fundamental assumption that you are secretly Pakistani, and a terrorist...and so you get treated quite poorly.

Even buying a house a nice neighborhood becomes an ordeal. There was recently a story in the Indian media about how even famous, wealthy Muslim Bollywood and TV actors weren't being allowed to buy apartments in the elite areas of Bombay...people like Shabana Azmi and Emraan Hashmi had property brokers telling them 'we don't sell to Muslims.'

Like I said before, India has a lot of things going for it...a functioning civilian government, rapid economic growth, stability...but based on my experiences, and the experiences of my relatives in both countries...as a Muslim I would much rather be in Pakistan.

that was the whole reason Pakistan was created to be a completely Muslim country for only Muslims. Look how peaceful it is til date

[indopak]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@teaser

Well before you jump to the conclusion, he is safe in USA. Now you can continue bad mouthing about Pakistan.

ok are you reading somebody else’s post or something???
Where did I badmouth Pakistan??

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

that was the whole reason Pakistan was created to be a completely Muslim country for only Muslims. Look how peaceful it is til date

I never said Pakistan is perfect. If I were a Hindu, I'm sure I'd much rather be in India...

But for Muslims, despite all its problems, Pakistan is still a better place.

[narayan]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed07.htm
Besides making other points, which are important but in this thread this point is relevant
**"**Today, globally Muslims have the lowest literacy rate. "

So its not only a problem among Indian muslims, its a Global problem. You would agree that if you are not educated you are less likely to be employed. You are less likely to get a bettter job than an educated lot and you are less likely to earn more.

[teaser]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@indopak

ok are you reading somebody else’s post or something???
Where did I badmouth Pakistan??

Ok than my appolgy if you did not.

[denada]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@lahori_bhai

The way shias have been treated in Pakistan in the last 20 years is a shame and a disgrace. The shias are probably more safer in india than in today’s Pakistan. It is especially sad because Pakistan was created for all muslims and not just one sect

Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos

http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/Eventlists.asp

http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/Eventlists.asp?whichpage=2&pagesize=10&sqlQuery=select+%2A+from+Event

One thing is sure – Ahmadiyyas are more safer in India than Pakistan…

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@narayan

http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed07.htm
Besides making other points, which are important but in this thread this point is relevant
**"**Today, globally Muslims have the lowest literacy rate. "

So its not only a problem among Indian muslims, its a Global problem. You would agree that if you are not educated you are less likely to be employed. You are less likely to get a bettter job than an educated lot and you are less likely to earn more.

First of all, until the author of that article comes up with some sort of statistical analysis to prove that information, I’m not buying it.

Secondly, if what you claim is true, then Muslims should have no problem being proportionally represented in a state like Kerala, where literacy is 90-100% for all communities. And yet, as I pointed out above, even in Kerala, Muslims are not properly represented…they make up 20% of the population and hold 10% of government jobs.

Third, access to educational facilities plays a huge role in developing literacy. If your government doesnt see it fit to build enough schools in poor Muslim areas, and provide whatever schools there are with adequate funds (which is a documented problem), then that is indeed the government’s fault.

Fourth, literacy plays no role other things I’ve mentioned…like access to credit, and subsidized food grains for the rural poor. And yet illiterate Muslim villagers lag behind their illiterate Hindu counterparts even in these very basic fields.

And finally…why do even educated/wealthy Muslims face so much discrimination in India? Why can the Muslim Bollywood stars that you adore so much purchase apartments in nice neighborhoods in Mumbai? Is it because theyre illiterate too?

[indopak]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

how come literacy rates for Muslims isn't at the 90-99% range instead of the 40% in Pakistan since it's supposed to be a country that is in full support of Muslim rights and a haven for all Muslims with full representation for them after partition and even now? There should be no terrorist attacks and absolutely no violence. pakistan should be in the same ranks as all the first world countries. Who is it that's holding them back??

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

how come literacy rates for Muslims isn't at the 90-99% range in Pakistan since it's supposed to be a country that is in full support of Muslim rights and a heaven for all Muslims with representation for them after partition and even now? There should be no terrorist attacks and absolutely no violence.

Did I ever say Pakistan is perfect??? I admit that the situation in both countries kinda sucks...all I'm saying is that its still better for Muslims (and Muslims only) in Pakistan.

At least in Pakistan, Muslims don't get kept out of schools and jobs because they're Muslim. At least they houses in whatever neighborhood they want. At least they aren't treated like outsiders with foreign loyalties, and constantly scrutinized as a group as potential terrorists.

I'm assuming you've never been to India. You're probably think that your own experiences as a minority in the US/UK/Canada correspond to what Indian Muslims go through as a minority there. I'm not sure you're grasping just how bad the situation actually is.

PS...and why should being all Muslim make Pakistan a first world country? Its still a poor nation that was looted dry by colonialists not that long ago...that kind of development takes time...

[teggy]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

how come literacy rates for Muslims isn't at the 90-99% range instead of the 40% in Pakistan since it's supposed to be a country that is in full support of Muslim rights and a heaven for all Muslims with full representation for them after partition and even now? There should be no terrorist attacks and absolutely no violence.

You raise a very good question. There are various factors that contribute to this lack of literacy in any country, let alone Pakistan. But for the sake of topic, lets say Pakistan.

1. There is no real democracy, or a workable system in place that nourishes the public.

2. Institutions are run like Govt. businesses instead of public assets.

3. Poverty. When people are too poor to buy food, sending their kid to school will be the first thing on the agenda.

4. Expensive education. Education is seen as a pearl at the moment, that only the privileged folks who can afford decent education get it. Others just about get through Govt. high schools/colleges and struggle to find a decent job.

Now, having said that. And that by no means is conclusive, just how i see it.

I think Pakistan can be and will be, and to some point is a safe place to live, except that Corruption has corroded the integrity of institutions and that serves as drawback in all aspect of Pakistani anything.

Army has been more worried about a bigger budget.
Politicians have always thought hard not for the benefit of the country, but how they're going to utilize their turn in power and fill their bank accounts.
Teachers get paid too little to care much, let alone teach at an acceptable standard.

and so on...

With these problems in place, it becomes quite easy for anyone to take advantage of the situation. Spread chaos, etc. Once everyone starts to focus on their specialty and job, everything can be expected to be normal and peaceful.

Law and Justice above all, needs to be served.

[LockJaw]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

how come literacy rates for Muslims isn't at the 90-99% range instead of the 40% in Pakistan since it's supposed to be a country that is in full support of Muslim rights and a heaven for all Muslims with full representation for them after partition and even now? There should be no terrorist attacks and absolutely no violence. pakistan should be in the same ranks as all the first world countries. Who is it that's holding them back??

a strawman argument. minority suppression could happen in India at the same time as Muslims not performing as well as they should in Pakistan. I dont see how the two are related.

fact is proportionately Muslims are under represented and illiterate. States mentioned are not bordering Pakistan (so you cant link those stats to Pakistan). The only commonality is religion. Are you suggesting that Muslims are inherently more likely to be illiterate?

Coming back to the main discussion. Yes shias are safer in India, because Muslims themselves face an onslaught from people who dont care who should have succeeded the Prophet. And because the particular brand of Islam mostly involved in killing shias hasnt taken root in India to the extent it has in Pakistan.

[Dr.LuLworth]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

And because the particular brand of Islam mostly involved in killing shias hasnt taken root in India to the extent it has in Pakistan.

Actually the extremist deobandi school of thought was born/founded in present day india. They were one of the few whole hearted opponents of pakistan that sided with hindus. Later though, most moved to pakistan after the inception of the countries. But a majority hindu country cannot allow an extremist idealogy to spread...so it has been easier for them to implement themselves in Pakistan.

[vineshvk]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

Great.

And as I pointed out above when someone else made a similar point, according to recent research less than 4% of Indian Muslim school children are educated at madarsas. Just because Indian society has stereotyped Muslims as shunning all things modern (perhaps to justify to justify the shoddy treatment it mets out to them), doesn't make it true.

I didnt say that they are educated in madrassas and hence became intellectually disadvantages. What I am saying is that leave religious books aside and start scientific learning. I wont go into " do not question faith" crap. But such disadvantage exist in lot of communities in India but they do something about it, rather than waite for a positive discrimination from Govt. Many communities took it upon themselves to change their future. Rather than giving a victimization speach, muslim as a community has to look inwerds. Why is that muslims all around the world in such disadvantageous position educationally. Why is being the second largest religion have a dis preportianate number of people being awarded a nobel prize.
You can see it in England where data is available for how much successfull indian children are compared to Pakistanies. Do u want numbers for that. It is some cultural and religius thing in muslims otherwise how do u explain the numbers.

@janab-e-ali

Thank you for demonstrating for everyone here yet another reason why being a Muslim in India is a miserable existence. AMU is a perfectly fine university, where more than half of the students aren't even Muslim. But because it is associated with the Muslim population, Indians like yourself naturally assume that its associated with 'terrorism' and 'anti-national elements.' The fundamental assumption among you people is that anyone with a Muslim name must be a terrorist, or a closet-Pakistani....perhaps one of the reasons Christians are more successful in India is because they don't have to deal with these absurd stereotypes.

I do not have experience going into north India. I am from kerala and as u rightly said muslims are 20% percent of the population. We dont believe that they are pakistanies or whatever stanies. In Kerala for most part of history muslims always enjoyed a great degree of political success. IUML is a part of coalition of congress party and always the education minister is a muslim. So why still they are under represented.
The quote above is a good example of "victimization speach". All world is conspiring against the muslims and hence they are under represented.

Hindus and christians also have frictions and many have prejudice against each other, but why still they are more succesfull. Hindus could also blame christians (as some people do) that they are agents of the west and spys of US.

[indopak]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I'm assuming you've never been to India. You're probably think that your own experiences as a minority in the US/UK/Canada correspond to what Indian Muslims go through as a minority there. I'm not sure you're grasping just how bad the situation actually is.

PS...and why should being all Muslim make Pakistan a first world country? Its still a poor nation that was looted dry by colonialists not that long ago...that kind of development takes time..

since both of us are ADs please don't assume anything about me, i've been to India many times and I never said that there isn't any discrimination present there. But i'm definitely not going to badmouth and insult India since I don't live there.

in terms of the bolded part, the same can be said for India too. It's only been 60 years since India got it's independence so if you look at the issue of civil rights in a country like America, 60 years after it got independence, it wasn't that great either with that whole slavery thing for so many years and just up until 40 years ago blacks, gays and other minorities were very openly discriminated against and many had experienced racially motivated killings.

You can't compare the race/religious relations situation of America as it is now with a country like India because 200+ years of educational progress and development isn't and can't be the same as 60 years of development.

[indopak]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

You raise a very good question. There are various factors that contribute to this lack of literacy in any country, let alone Pakistan. But for the sake of topic, lets say Pakistan.

** 1. There is no real democracy, or a workable system in place that nourishes the public.**

wasn't there a democratically elected government before 1999 so am I to assume that with all the full rights and full representation that Muslims(no discrimination of course) enjoyed in Pakistan before 1999, the literacy rate was at a 90-99% range and then suddenly dropped to around 40% after dictator Musharraf took over? Nope because both countries haven't had sufficient time to completely develop yet and they still have some negatives to deal with.

[teaser]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@denada

One thing is sure – Ahmadiyyas are more safer in India than Pakistan…

Are they safe from Allah :swt:? I think that should be the main concern.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

I didnt say that they are educated in madrassas and hence became intellectually disadvantages. What I am saying is that leave religious books aside and start scientific learning.

OH PLEASE.

One of the hottest topics being discussed in the 'rational' & 'intellectual' Indian Supreme Court & Parliament right now is weather a natural causeway connecting Sri Lanka and India was built by an army of monkeys under Rama's command, and you have the audacity to accuse the Muslim population of being unscientific?!?!?

But such disadvantage exist in lot of communities in India but they do something about it, rather than waite for a positive discrimination from Govt. Many communities took it upon themselves to change their future.

Again, what are you talking about?

Have you heard of the scheduled caste system? Basically, all the backwards elements of Hindu society are ensured adequate representation in government, and educational institutions through a quota system...something Muslims have been denied on a federal level. So Muslims should 'look inwards' and pull themselves up by their bootstraps (all while being considered terrorists and ISI agents by the common public), but Chamars and Untouchables should get government handouts. Brilliant.

You can see it in England where data is available for how much successfull indian children are compared to Pakistanies. Do u want numbers for that. It is some cultural and religius thing in muslims otherwise how do u explain the numbers.

Its simple socioeconomics actually.

British Pakistanis come from poorer backgrounds...most of them came from Azad Kashmir to do unskilled labor in the UK. And Indian Muslims also do well in the UK, so its not an issue of the inherent stupidity and ignorance of Muslims as you seem to believe.

In Kerala for most part of history muslims always enjoyed a great degree of political success. IUML is a part of coalition of congress party and always the education minister is a muslim. So why still they are under represented.

So one or two token ministers should be able to reform the entire system?

The quote above is a good example of "victimization speach". All world is conspiring against the muslims and hence they are under represented. Hindus and christians also have frictions and many have prejudice against each other, but why still they are more succesfull. Hindus could also blame christians (as some people do) that they are agents of the west and spys of US.

So again, if there is indeed no discrimination, and its all just us Muslims being dirty and uneducated and breeding like rabbits as you Indians like to think...why is common for even wealthy Muslims to be forbidden from purchasing housing in affluent areas?

in terms of the bolded part, the same can be said for India too.

Yes, it can.

You were asking why Pakistan doesn't have 90-99% literacy yet. So tell me, if its all so hunky dory in India, why arent they approaching 100% literacy yet? Why does 87% of their population live on less than 50 cents per day?

It's only been 60 years since India got it's independence so if you look at the issue of civil rights in a country like America, 60 years after it got independence, it wasn't that great either with that whole slavery thing for so many years and just up until 40 years ago blacks, gays and other minorities were very openly discriminated against and many had experienced racially motivated killings.

You can't compare the race/religious relations situation of America as it is now with a country like India because 200+ years of educational progress and development isn't and can't be the same as 60 years of development.

I'm not comparing the US to either country. If I remember correctly, I've been talking very specifically about the situation of Muslims in Pakistan vs. the situation of Muslims in India.

And I am aware it takes a while to develop proper democratic institutions. Neither India nor Pakistan is fully there yet. But, again, based on the current situation, where Muslims are pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole in India, things are probably better for them as a community in Pakistan.

I'm not saying in absolute terms that Pakistan is somehow "better" than India. But it is a better place for Muslims. On the same token, if I were a Hindu or a Sikh, I would much rather be in India than in Pakistan...even though one can always trot out the list of the handful of wealthy, successful non-Muslims in Pakistan (sound familiar?), I still think they're better off India.

[teggy]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

wasn't there a democratically elected government before 1999 so am I to assume that with all the full rights and full representation that Muslims(no discrimination of course) enjoyed in Pakistan before 1999, the literacy rate was at a 90-99% range and then suddenly dropped to around 40% after dictator Musharraf took over? Nope because both countries haven't had sufficient time to completely develop yet and they still have some negatives to deal with.

That's exactly what i meant by 'no real democracy' in place. Because it has not been allowed to mature thus far.

[indopak]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@janab-e-ali

Yes, it can.

You were asking why Pakistan doesn’t have 90-99% literacy yet. So tell me, if its all so hunky dory in India, why arent they approaching 100% literacy yet? Why does 87% of their population live on less than 50 cents per day?

Aye! I never said that “it was all hunky dory” in India, if you read my reply carefully you can see that I had said that there was discrimination but like any other country it takes time to sort through the problems and come up with viable solutions where the Muslim community itself should be trying to improve its situation.

The reason I was saying that Pakistan should be a lot higher in terms of literacy was because you were bragging about how Muslims enjoy so many rights and it’s a heaven for them and to that I replied that the literacy rate should not be nearly as low as 40% range because there was nothing standing in their way in terms of discrimination, like you said.

Plus if you compare each individual state in India to that of Pakistan, the literacy rates of muslims is a lot higher than 40% in each state(except Bihar and Haryana which aren’t doing too well overall(both Hindus and Muslims) and Muslims actually have a higher literacy rate than Hindus in a couple states.http://india_resource.tripod.com/religion-demographics.html

Anyway, my point is that both countries have obstacles right now and you won’t find me complaining and saying negative things about India because hopefully India will sort all these religious issues out one day and progress even more.

@janab-e-ali

I’m not comparing the US to either country. If I remember correctly, I’ve been talking very specifically about the situation of Muslims in Pakistan vs. the situation of Muslims in India.

You had actually mentioned before that Muslims/minorities in places like US/UK don’t go through discrimination like Muslims do in India. So I was replying to that with what i said(please reread what I said).

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Are Shia muslims safer in Pakistan or in india?

@indopak

The reason I was saying that Pakistan should be a lot higher in terms of literacy was because you were bragging about how Muslims enjoy so many rights and it’s a heaven for them and to that I replied that the literacy rate should not be nearly as low as 40% range because there was nothing standing in their way in terms of discrimination like you said.

When in God’s name did I say Pakistan was heaven? I’ve started every post with some sort of disclaimer about how both countries have serious issues, but for Muslims and Muslims alone, the situation is comparatively better than in Pakistan.

@indopak

Plus if you compare each individual state in India to that of Pakistan, the literacy rates of muslims is a lot higher than 40% in each state(except Bihar and Haryana which aren’t doing too well overall(Hindus and Muslims) and Muslims are more literate in a couple states.http://india_resource.tripod.com/religion-demographics.html

First of all, if youre going to accept Indian government figures at face value, then you should accept accept Pakistani figures too…which means that the national literacy rate is 56%, not 40 as you claim.

http://www.moe.gov.pk/faqs.htm?#q4

Now, looking at the chart that you provided…if you look at the states with the highest Muslim populations (UP, West Bengal, Bihar) which alone account for half of the Muslims in India, the Muslim literacy rate doesn’t even compare to Pakistan except in Bengal, where its about equal.

Moreover, literacy rates aren’t everything. Kerala has a literacy rate comparable to those found in the developed world…and yet, the state is an economic backwater whose economy is completely dependent on remittances from migrant workers in the Gulf. And again, despite being 90% literate, Muslims in Kerala are still incredibly underrepresented in the public sector workforce.

@indopak

Anyway, my point is that both countries have obstacles right now and you won’t find me complaining and saying negative things about India because hopefully India will sort all these religious issues out one day and progress even more.

For the last time, no one is disputing the fact that both countries have a long way to go. None of that changes the fact that Muslims face significant discrimination in India, and that the situation is probably somewhat better for them in Pakistan.

Now, just to clarify, if you believe that I’m wrong to criticize India’s treatment of its minorities because its a work in progress…does that also mean that a couple decades back, you would have been against civil rights leaders in the US criticizing Jim Crow laws and segregation…after all, American democracy was a work in progress too, so who the hell were they to ‘sit around and say negative things about the US, because hopefully one day America will sort out all these racial issues and progress even more.’