hmmm...some very interesting points have been put forward by many people and I'm sure many of you have had this discussion even outside of gupshup with other people. I think that there are two aspects of this discussion about gay people.
Firstly regarding them being Gay..Well, as NYA mentioned, if it IS something they are born with then regardless of how the world perceives them (ie normal/not normal/diseased mentally ill etc..) they cannot do anything about it. If gay people are indeed,born gay and it is part of their genetic makeup, then they cannot change being gay, anymore than you or I can change the colour of our eyes (please dont mention contact lenses...for any comedians out there !). So weather you look upon homosexuality from a religious perspective or from a worldly perspective, punishing these people will not suddenly make them turn into hetrosexuals. IF on the other hand, homosexuality is a matter of choice then thats a whole different ball game.
Secondly, as regards giving homosexuals rights to adopt children and have the same rights and hetrosexuals, well that has nothing to do with homosexuality. It is no different from giving black people the right to vote and drink from the same water fountains as white people and sit on the same buses (this is part of American History..I'm sure most of you are aware of the Black civil rights movements etc..) Ones sexual orientation/skin colour/faith/ethnic origin should have no bearing on basic human rights.
Naz.
[This message has been edited by Naz (edited July 26, 2000).]
I think your arguments have already been covered. Even assuming that homosexuality is genetic, so what? Kleptomania is also genetic, does this give a person the right to shop-lift? A person is responsible to the society around him/her as well as to themselves. If homosexuality is promoted as gay people are actively doing now, it can affect the rest of society as well.
Now, as for child rearing, you say;
[quote]
Ones sexual orientation/skin colour/faith/ethnic origin should have no bearing on basic human rights.
[/quote]
IMO it is a basic human right of a child to be brought up in a normal and healthy environment - can you honestly say that having a mommy called Bruce is healthy or normal? Why should an innocent child get lumbered with gay parents? Why should gays expect the right to children at all when their very lifestyle rules out reproduction?
Isn't it a case of having their fairy cake and eating it?
[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:
**This whole deal with Oh they are genetically programmed to be gay and oh who are we to set the ideas of what is right and what is wrong..
and as far as laws go, or whats right and whats wrong...I assume that murder and rape will be okay too since its just some idea of right and wrong that some nameless faceless people came up with ages ago.
**
[/quote]
i wasnt aware that loving someone was a crime
on what bases are you relating murder and rape with being in love with the same sex ???
If supposedly one of your child grows up to be Gay would you abandon him ..shun him out of your family just because he is Gay?
would his being gay make any difference in how much you love him ...?
i cant believe that some people on this forum are saying gay people is okay. the quran says to be gay is not genetic , its a satanic behaviour people wish to indulge in.
ive noticed its mostly people who are followers of the qadiani religion that accept gays.May god guide such people who are misled by ghulam mirza
shame on you naz, mr fraud, ny ahmadi
gay people are depraved, you got my vote mr xtreme
Yaar, I wasn't talking about right & wrong, The jist of my post was that if homosexuality
is genetic, then you cannot blame these people for what they are. If you start to condem them for what they are, then how different is that from hating people due to the colour of their skin or ethnicity ?. As for 'PRMOTING Homosexuality' as you put it, It is their way of gaining Recognition/acceptance in society. If they didn't 'promote' themselves then the image/perception of homosexuals would be based on hearsay and old wives tales and thats what results in scenarios such as people saying 'don't go near him..he's gay and if he touches you ..you'll become gay aswell !'.Its amazing how much crap people make up when they don't know the truth. By 'promoting' themselves, basically homosexuals are saying to the world that other than their sexual orientation, they are human like the rest of us.
Also you cannot paint everyone with the same brush, the example of a kleptomaniac you gave is different from homosexuality. The kleptomaniac's actions affect others (ie theft of property etc..) but if two consenting males decide to sleep together then what adverse affects does that have on the rest of society. once again it's not a question of right or wrong, like in the example of a Kleptomaniac, if it is a genetic defect which causes him/her to steal, then telling them its 'wrong' is not going to fix anything,thats not to say that it should be accepted, if it can be treated then it should.
If homosexuality is promoted as gay people are actively doing now, it can affect the rest of society as well.
How can homosexuality affect the rest of society ?...are you saying that by being around gay people will make you gay ?.
as far as children being brought up in a gay family (both parents male) the only thing that would be missing from that relationship is the love of a mother. You all have mothers and I'm sure you will agree that no matter how close you are to your father ot how much love you receive from the male parent, there is something unique about the love/affection/tenderness you receive from your mother. There is no doubt that motherly love would be missing in a gay relationship, but other than that, I'm sure a gay couple are able to bring up a hetrosexual child.
i cant believe that some people on this forum are saying gay people is okay. the quran
says to be gay is not genetic , its a satanic behaviour people wish to indulge in.
read my post again...you seem to have overlooked a very important word... 'IF'. ie IF it is genetic
Ive noticed its mostly people who are followers of the qadiani religion that accept
gays.May god guide such people who are misled by ghulam mirza
please don't bring religion into this and don't 'persume' you know what sect of Islam I belong to based on the post's I make in Gupshup.
Homos personally i think they are illness in our society. I mean look at the statistics, more and more people are getting AIDS, just because they have sex with other men. Homos are big spreaders of AIDS and STDs.
As long as they do not do anything disgusting in public, and keep the sexual thing in privacy of their homes, i have no problem with them.
But as NaikLarki mentioned,(quam-e-lut) it is haram, and its not alowed in islam. According to that i dont think; we muslims should favor it. After all it is disgusting if you think about it, even if you dont consider islam in yet.
I just want to add some facts:
1.Homosexuality is not a mental illness.This has been decided by American Psychiatric Association by vote.
2.Spread of AIDS is mainly through hetrosexual contact NOW.
3.Holy Prophet PBUH once came across a prostitute pulling water from deep desert well and giving it to stray thirsty dog.He told his companions that this act of kindness on her part has ensured Jannat for her.
4.Allah is Alim ul Ghaib.He knows what is lurking in our hearts.Punishment of Munafiq is worse then Kafir.
5.Overt/public sexual exposure and actions is not permitted even if it is hetrosexual.
I am NOT gay neither I want any one to be gay.BUT I know many gay people who are fine people and many who are mean.Just like anyone else.
I'd been meaning to get involved with this debate but didn't have the time.....
By now most of what I had to say has been covered and I won't bore you by repeating it.
I pretty much stand with Mr. Fraudia on the subject. I'll be teaching my kids that gay or lesbian is not the way to be. Primarily because that's what Islam teaches.
I don't know if I could abandon a child if he/she chose this way of life.....maternal instincts are probably more difficult to control than paternal. (I'm guessing here)
Ditto Muzna on trying to participate in this thread.
This debate has been around in social circles for a while now. Society vs. homosexuals.
Personally I think that homosexuals should be given the freedom to excercise their basic human rights like anybody else. However, their lifestyle and behaviour should be discouraged at societal level, not in a manner that would discriminate them or deprive them of their human rights.
I know the above is too vague and unclear. What constitutes as human rights can be difficult to decide on times. Few years ago there was debate in NY about allowing homosexual couples to be eligible for medical insurance from their work for their partners with whom they have been living for at least 7 years since for hetrosexual couples, that's the case.
I don't what happened to that debate but if you look at it, giving insurance protection implies encouraging such couplehood; or at least, it does not discourage homosexuality. And on the other hand medical insurance is everybody's right to health.
Is child rearing a basic human right in such scenario? While I believe that homosexuals can be as good parents as normal couples, it still goes towards the overall moral direction a society carries itself on. Look at the tax bracket system. People get tax breaks based on number of dependents (mainly childeren) and the basic philosophy behind it is that government encourages family since those children will grow up to be useful and contributing citizens later. Given such an establishment of philosophy, homosexuals are not contributing to the society in the same manner that normal couples are so they should not be given certain rights that normal couples enjoy. Child rearing is one of them.
NYAhmadi------
I would like to know that under what circumstance you came to say that most of “AFGHAN TALIBANs are gay.”
What is your proof?
What made you say that?
Is it because they made all the women in Afghan cover up from top to bottom?
Or is it because their not perverts like others who enjoy watching their women/family members half-naked on the streets?
And for gay/fagz/homoz as long as there not in my life good, but when the interfere with my natural habitats, then that is not expectable.
Say wHat!?!
[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited August 06, 2000).]
What do you mean by interfere with your natural habitat?
They live in your neighbourhood. They go to school with your children. You stand in line with them at the supermarket. They teach in your colleges and universities. They shop at the same mall that you do.
They are actors in your favorite films. They perform in your local theatres. They contribute to arts and culture in your society.
Hmm…………..let see since when did nature start growing schools, malls, films, …………………….hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………………………………………………………………………………..wait I’m still looking……….let mee seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee………………………………………
Shoot I can’t even find it on the internet….. lol…..
I find noun of that natural and if you do, then I think you must be living on anther planet, because all of these things are man made…as far as they go by teaching in colleges and universities, I don’t find anything on the black board saying “Warning your learning from a homosexual”. Yes your right! they do teach, but as long as I don’t know, I don’t have to know. My natural habitat is my religion/cultural values and the fact that men and women are made for each other, a child is suppose to have a female mother and a male father. Young men should grow up thinking about marrying beautiful girl not a beautiful boy and the other way around, men shouldn’t have to worry about breast feeding or carrying a child for 9 months. If cloning is possible than I think that is also possible. When this happens, then it is definitely not natural. Remember I said “as long as”, till now they haven’t done that yet and when they do, then I will personally make sure that they burn in hell. I think nothing is more natural then your families and the vibe that comes from it is you habitat. I feel sorry for people who have to know that their mother/father use to or have the same gender as the opposite sex. It is already hard for those who cant SEE, SPEAK, HEAR, we don’t need more miserable humans, we already have enough. I can’t believe those educated Muslim in east or in the west, that thinks that it is ok to be gay, but not ok to be Hindu Jew etc…. If something is haram, then it is haram Period. There are no exceptions.
But I see your point Muzna, that’s why I should also have said Natural Ways of Life. I think gay/homosexuals are ill people and they need help, just like serial killers and child molesters and serial rapists, doesn’t matter there born like that or not. Till then I don’t have to know and I don’t want to know their personal Bezzz…
“Well till next time, take care of your self and each other.”
Time makes me late, so you should wait! 