Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

[hazara]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

i'd say wanting your religious laws to be a part of the legal framework of the country is actually reflective of a desire to be a proper part of the country.

you cant integrate if theres a group saying "go back from where you came from" everytime you propose adding something of your identity to the collective.

im again all religious laws in the country, including beth din courts.

one country, one law. besides, its obvious that the sharia courts will be misogynistic by default.

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

^ your argument is all over the place. If you oppose religious laws entirely, you need to stand and protest outside Beth Din, because you're advocating a system that doesnt exist in response to a question of changing the existing system. You oppose Shariah on the grounds of wanting one law for all, well guess what, there isnt one law for all with or without shariah laws. In this particular debate, your position is a non-sequiter, because either way the state of the world you want wont come around.

You objection on it being "obviously mysognistic" is an example of the anti-Muslim prejudice behind the outcry. A lot of commentators are just afraid of their careers, and therefore arent as forthright about it.

[hazara]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

its not anti-muslim because im muslim myself. i know it will misogynistic because many proponents of sharia law for family and inheritance matters are the type that prefer to exert their supremicist beliefs upon others.

[hazara]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

@hazara

uberalles, it might hurt you to know that not a lot of Muslims support sharia arbitration

http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/opposing-sharia-arbitration-courts-in-uk/

read that.

lockjaw, have you read this? it firmly addresses my concerns of these courts.

[Seminole]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

we know that they are only politically significant when their numbers have increased to the level it is now. and the only reason their numbers are increasing at a disproportionate rate is because of immigration, people who were NOT a part of American history or culture before.

Hispanics make up (and always have) a larger % in the US, than Muslims in UK - currently 15%. They are the largest minority group, larger than black Americans. Some states are more than 40% Hispanic. There are more Hispanics in the city Los Angeles than Muslims in all of UK. Puerto Rico, an island with 4 million Hispanics, is part of the US.

But it's more than sheer #'s. It's an intermingling of history and culture. Hispanic culture is not foreign to US. Many parts of the US used to belong to Mexico (and fairly recently). How much of Britain was once owned by Pakistan?

Hispanics are generally of the same religion as Americans. There are Hispanics at every level of elected office in US. They do not have a seperate set of laws they want to implement. There is not any "extremist" element within their population.

We chare a common border with Mexico The US has Hispanic TV stations, churches, newspapers, radio stations, music stores, clothing stores, nightclubs, restaraunts. 1/2 of the western cities and states have Hispanic names.

Hispanics discovered this land and settled in Florida long before British settled in America. Hispanics have fought in every war in the history of US, including both sides of the Civil War. We have Ricky Ricardo, Ricky Martin, Carlos Santana, Roberto Clemente, Rita Hayworth, Joan Baez, Anthony Quinn, etc as part of our pop culture.

So you see, a few fried chicken shops in London doesn't really compare to the impact, influence, history and culture that Hispanics have in the US.

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

Hispanics make up (and always have) a larger % in the US, than Muslims in UK - currently 15%. They are the largest minority group, larger than black Americans. Some states are more than 40% Hispanic. There are more Hispanics in the city Los Angeles than Muslims in all of UK. Puerto Rico, an island with 4 million Hispanics, is part of the US.

But it's more than sheer #'s. It's an intermingling of history and culture. Hispanic culture is not foreign to US. Many parts of the US used to belong to Mexico (and fairly recently). How much of Britain was once owned by Pakistan?

Britain used to rule over many parts of the Muslim world too. That didnt get them to adopt Muslim-friendly laws (though Pakistanies are eligible to vote here as a result), nor would puerto rico wake democratcs and republicans to dance around the hispanic lobby (its been part of the US for a while) as a burgeoning former immigrant-now-eligible-to-vote population has.
There are parts of UK where Muslim presence is greater than 40%. Not small parts either.

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Hispanics are generally of the same religion as Americans.

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Why is that relevant? Would it be different if Hispanics were jews? How would American laws regarding Hispanics be different if they were Jews?

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There are Hispanics at every level of elected office in US.

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Not every level, but fine I'll grant you a little exagerration. Over here theres plenty of Muslim councillors, members of parliament and even Lords.

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They do not have a seperate set of laws they want to implement. There is not any "extremist" element within their population.

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Oh I disagree. They do have a set of laws they want to implement, otherwise there wouldnt be a Hispanic political lobby if they didnt want to get certain laws passed.
About extremist elements, lets just say you cant treat all Muslims like you would the extremist elements and expect them to integrate.

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We chare a common border with Mexico

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Not relevant. As far as I know theres no differentiation of citizens based on how far away their parents came from.

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The US has Hispanic TV stations, churches, newspapers, radio stations, music stores, clothing stores, nightclubs, restaraunts. 1/2 of the western cities and states have Hispanic names.

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Theres plenty of Muslim/Asian tv and radio stations. Likewise for newspapers, music stores, bookshops, clothing stores, restaurants and even nightclubs (even though as a Muslim I dont particularly like the last).

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Hispanics discovered this land and settled in Florida long before British settled in America. Hispanics have fought in every war in the history of US, including both sides of the Civil War. We have Ricky Ricardo, Ricky Martin, Carlos Santana, Roberto Clemente, Rita Hayworth, Joan Baez, Anthony Quinn, etc as part of our pop culture.

So you see, a few fried chicken shops in London doesn't really compare to the impact, influence, history and culture that Hispanics have in the US.
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Im sure as time goes by we'll have more Muslim pop culture figures. However are you saying that if Hispanics were a recently emigrated population (say Asians) from a country not as close to the US they would not be eligible for lobbying for laws they like?

Parts of US have now a heavy Chinese presence for example.

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

@hazara

its not anti-muslim because im muslim myself. i know it will misogynistic because many proponents of sharia law for family and inheritance matters are the type that prefer to exert their supremicist beliefs upon others

Didnt say anti-Muslim, I said anti-Muslim prejudice. Clearly you do have anti-Muslim prejudice if you feel any Muslim laws must necessarily include supremacist beliefs. You're Muslim too, assuming you conform any of your conduct according to the laws of Islam, do you feel you are supremacist or mysoginist?

About your link, I cant argue against a blogger who isnt here. So if you find anything particularly relevant, post it here and own it. Otherwise Im not going to read something and have nothing to say.

[hazara]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

Didnt say anti-Muslim, I said anti-Muslim prejudice. Clearly you do have anti-Muslim prejudice if you feel any Muslim laws must necessarily include supremacist beliefs. You're Muslim too, assuming you conform any of your conduct according to the laws of Islam, do you feel you are supremacist or mysoginist?

About your link, I cant argue against a blogger who isnt here. So if you find anything particularly relevant, post it here and own it. Otherwise Im not going to read something and have nothing to say.

no i didnt say islam is misogynist at all. i stated that the arbitrators would hold misogynistic tendencies.

you can argue his points via his comments box on his blog, but methinks you are unable to put up with the legitimate arguments he has levied.

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

sure, think what you want. Unless you post something from it here, and own it, you'll never know :)

if you dont think Islam isnt mysoginist then dont argue against Islamic laws until you see what they look like.

[Seminole]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

Im sure as time goes by we'll have more Muslim pop culture figures. However are you saying that if Hispanics were a recently emigrated population (say Asians) from a country not as close to the US they would not be eligible for lobbying for laws they like?

Anyone can lobby for what they want. Obviuosly the highter the #'s and the more organized, the more they can get. Muslims = 3% of UK population. Hispanics = 15% of US population. Hands down, not even close, it is 5-1.

What the rest of my post went on to say was that their voting block wants to implment things much more closely aligned to US than what Muslims want in UK. That is because Hispanics are much more a part of US way of life - their impact, influence, history and culture are deeply embedded in the US. They have been in US as long as any other American. Muslims in UK? Totally opposite. If there were a quantitative way to meaure it would be more than 5,000-1.

You actually ask why religion of Hispanics is relevant? It's the only thing that is relevant in this thread where we are talking of sharia law in UK. And that is just one small example of why Hispanic/US is not valid - yet it is the only thing even relates to why Muslims want different laws. "Muslim" by defintion only takes religion into account.

[hazara]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

dont argue against Islamic laws until you see what they look like.

haha my family sure knows what they look like, and given the sentiments of a minority who want it in england, i say no thanks.

[Seminole]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

You're Muslim too, assuming you conform any of your conduct according to the laws of Islam, do you feel you are supremacist or mysoginist?

Please cite one recent example where sharia law has been implemented that has not been mysoginist. Theory is great, but practice?

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

Anyone can lobby for what they want. Obviuosly the highter the #'s and the more organized, the more they can get. Muslims = 3% of UK population. Hispanics = 15% of US population. Hands down, not even close, it is 5-1.

irrelevant. they're obviously a significant enough political and ethnic bloc. we wouldnt be having this discussion if they werent.

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What the rest of my post went on to say was that their voting block wants to implment things much more closely aligned to US than what Muslims want in UK. That is because Hispanics are much more a part of US way of life - their impact, influence, history and culture are deeply embedded in the US. They have been in US as long as any other American. Muslims in UK? Totally opposite. If there were a quantitative way to meaure it would be more than 5,000-1.

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Not really. Just because they were there before white folk killed them or pushed them out into mexico doesnt mean what they want is closely aligned to the US. For example Latino lobbies generally tend to be very open-borders. On the other hand, take any poll and you'll see across the political spectrum people want stronger border enforcement.

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You ask why religion of Hispanics matter? It's the only thing that matters in this thread where we are talking of sharia law in UK. That is just one small example of why Hispanic/US is not valid and it is the only thing even relates to why Muslims want different laws.
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I didnt draw the parallel of Hispanics because of their religion related activism. They're an example of a significant voting bloc that gets the laws they prefer passed because of their numbers. It could be any ethnicity as far as Im concerned.

If the Hispanic lobby's activism was for religious laws then your point about the religion being the same would be relevant.

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

haha my family sure knows what they look like, and given the sentiments of a minority who want it in england, i say no thanks.

um, I cant talk about your family specifically, because thats a personal matter. and I dont let my religion and its laws be defined by this minority you speak of.

Please cite one recent example where sharia law has been implemented that has not been mysoginist. Theory is great, but practice?

dunno. you constrain the pool considerably by saying "recent". however a lot of Muslims, including myself, practice the kind of shariah being talked about in this thread. This includes Marriage laws, trade laws, banking, charity, and much more. Are you saying my life is mysoginist?

[Seminole]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

not relevant. they're obviously a significant enough political bloc. we wouldnt be having this discussion if they werent.

Yeah, 15% and 3% have equal standing and representation. The reason this discussion is going is because the Archibiship brought it up. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell this will happen. I nobody has already ordered their niqabs.

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Not really. Just because they were there before white folk killed them or pushed them out into mexico doesnt mean what they want is closely aligned to the US. For example Latino lobbies generally tend to be very open-borders. On the other hand, take any poll and you'll see across the political spectrum people want stronger border enforcement.
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Wow, that just shot down 400 years of history and culture.

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I didnt draw the parallel of Hispanics because of their religion related activism. They're an example of a significant voting bloc that gets the laws they prefer passed because of their numbers. It could be any ethnicity as far as Im concerned.

If the Hispanic lobby's activism was for religious laws then your point about the religion being the same would be relevant.
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Their religion is NOT FOREIGN to the rest of the US. That is why it is relevant.

[Seminole]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

dunno. you constrain the pool considerably by saying "recent". however a lot of Muslims, including myself, practice the kind of shariah being talked about in this thread. This includes Marriage laws, trade laws, banking, charity, and much more. Are you saying my life is mysoginist?

I have no idea what your life is except that you think a 3%, unorganized, socially unintegrated, recently immigrated voting block can be compared to that of Hispanics in US.

I'm just curious as to why this enlightened version of sharia law only exists in theory while any implementation of it in recent history is a flawed, misogynist version.

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

Yeah, 15% and 3% have equal standing and representation. The reason this discussion is going is because the Archibiship brought it up. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell this will happen. I nobody has already ordered their niqabs.

Those adhering to the niqaab laws, will continue to wear their niqaabs. Those who dont, wouldnt under the shariah proposed, just as Beth Din doesnt make jews wear their skull caps.

this discussion isnt happening for the last time in this country.

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Wow, that just shot down 400 years of history and culture.

Their religion is NOT FOREIGN to the rest of the US. That is why it is relevant.
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They're not politically active for anything related to religion. Lets say they advocate, for instance, free burritos on tueday. Would it be okay to say "if you want Free burritos on tuesday go back to mexico?"

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

I have no idea what your life is except that you think a 3%, unorganized, socially unintegrated, recently immigrated voting block can be compared to that of Hispanics in US.

Great, then you shouldn assume that the religious laws I'd wish to adher to would necessarily be mysoginist.

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I'm just curious as to why this enlightened version of sharia law only exists in theory while any implementation of it in recent history is a flawed, misogynist version.
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What do you mean in theory? MOST muslims practice shariah in matters of marriage, diet and daily life. A LOT are now practicing shariah in matters of trade and banking. Perhaps you mean why that isnt legislated, in many countries it is. You try getting married in Pakistan, if you're a Muslim, and somehow do it in a way that isnt in accordance with Shariah?

[LockJaw]

Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain

@Seminole

Sharia law can't even be implemented correctly in the country where Islam was founded, how do you really expect it in a place where Islamic/Arabic culture is a totally foreign concept?

Its fairly commonplace to say American laws are based on Judeo-Christian traditions. Mostly Christian, deist traditions. Yet Christian laws arent implemented in Israel?