Interesting development. The archbishop has always been fairly liberal in his views on Islam.
Archbishop backs sharia law for British Muslims
Riazat Butt, Religious affairs correspondent
Thursday February 7, 2008
Guardian Unlimited
The Archbishop of Canterbury tonight prompted criticism from across the political spectrum after he backed the introduction of sharia law in Britain and argued that adopting some of its aspects seemed “unavoidable”.
Rowan Williams, the most senior figure in the Church of England, said that giving Islamic law official status in the UK would help achieve social cohesion because some Muslims did not relate to the British legal system.
However, the prime minister’s spokesman swiftly rejected the archbishop’s comments, which were delivered in a lecture on civil and religious law at the Royal Courts of Justice.
Gordon Brown’s spokesman insisted British law would be based on British values and that sharia law would present no justification for acting against national law.
"Our general position is that sharia law cannot be used as a justification for committing breaches of English law, nor should the principles of sharia law be included in a civil court for resolving contractual disputes.
“If there are specific instances like stamp duty, where changes can be made in a way that’s consistent with British law and British values, in a way to accommodate the values of fundamental Muslims, that is something the government would look at.”
The Conservative peer and shadow minister for community cohesion and social action, Sayeeda Warsi, also criticised the Anglican primate.
"The archbishop’s comments are unhelpful and may add to the confusion that already exists in our communities … We must ensure that people of all backgrounds and religions are treated equally before the law.
“Freedom under the law allows respect for some religious practices. But let’s be absolutely clear: all British citizens must be subject to British laws developed through parliament and the courts.”
However, some Muslim groups supported Dr Williams’ views on sharia law, which sets out a broad code of conduct for all aspects of life, from diet to the wearing of the hijab.
The Ramadhan Foundation, an educational and welfare body, said the speech was “testament to his attempts to understand Islam and promote tolerance and respect between our great faiths”.
More than 800 people were present in the Great Hall of the Royal Courts of Justice for the speech. A further 200 poured into the overspill marquee. Plasma screens were erected to ensure people could hear and see Williams clearly, and the audience was encouraged to introduce themselves to those nearby.
Williams said introducing sharia law would mean Muslims would no longer have to choose between two systems.
“If what we want socially is a pattern of relations in which a plurality of diverse and overlapping affiliations work for a common good, and in which groups of serious and profound conviction are not systematically faced with the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty, it seems unavoidable.”
He compared the situation to faith schools, where “communal loyalties” were brought into direct contact with wider society, leading to mutual questioning and mutual influence towards change, without compromising the “distinctiveness of the essential elements of those communal loyalties”.
Earlier, in a BBC interview, he was more succinct. He said it was a “matter of fact” that sharia law was already being practised in Britain.
“It’s not as if we’re bringing in an alien and rival system; we already have in this country a number of situations in which the internal law of religious communities is recognised by the law of the land … There is a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law as we already do with some kinds of aspects of other religious law.”
He did not endorse the “kind of inhumanity” associated with sharia law in some Islamic states.
The Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali, warned last month that attempts were being made to give Britain an increasingly Islamic character.
“There is pressure already to relate aspects of the sharia to civil law in Britain,” he said. “To some extent this is already true of arrangements for sharia-compliant banking but have the far-reaching implications of this been fully considered?”
The bishop, who is no stranger to controversy, also claimed that extremists have created “no-go” areas, which were too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter. He has since received death threats and was placed under police protection. He was unavailable for comment today.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
predictably, this was the feature segment on atleast on Fox News pundit's show (Gibson)
it is a pretty innocuous idea in itself, Britain for example has special courts based on Jewish law. it is only when you have contempt for Muslims when you would be hysterically opposed to the idea. If someone voluntarily submits to a particular sort of law, that doesnt contradict the common law, then what is the harm in recognizing it?
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
predictably, this was the feature segment on atleast on Fox News pundit's show (Gibson)
it is a pretty innocuous idea in itself, Britain for example has special courts based on Jewish law. it is only when you have contempt for Muslims when you would be hysterically opposed to the idea. If someone voluntarily submits to a particular sort of law, that doesnt contradict the common law, then what is the harm in recognizing it?
Yes there are courts based on jewish law but these concern issues such as marriage e.t.c sharia courts do operate in britain too reagarding issues such as marriage and divorce, they just arent as well regulated and are scattered all over the place. There has been absoluete uproar from the general public, a) becos they feel that no religious group should be given special treatment b) the media being the media loves to sensationalize stories such as this involving religion especially Islam, and have totally stirred thingsc) most people dont ever read or listen to the article, news bulletin properly, and think that the archbishop was suggesting full implementation of sharia law in britain , ie a replacemnt of the current judicial system with shariah law for muslims
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
really, sharia courts operate in Britain? I confess I dont know all that much about this issue, I thought this was a completely new idea coming from the archbishop. Can you provide a reference? The guardian article specifically mentions marriage and divorce as an area where sharia law could be recognized, presumably any courts concerning Muslim marriages and divorce that exist have limited recognition?
I doubt you would get the same reaction for any other religious group's laws tweety_pie. One example is the case of the cow up north that had to be killed with opposition from the Hindu temple. While the religion there was in direct opposition to British law, it was painted in a much more sympathetic light. If the venerable archbishop doesnt quickly express abject contrition soon, the furore might really escalate.
There is a palpable undercurrent of hostility and xenophobia here quite distinct from any legal qualms one may have.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
really, sharia courts operate in Britain? I confess I dont know all that much about this issue, I thought this was a completely new idea coming from the archbishop. Can you provide a reference? The guardian article specifically mentions marriage and divorce as an area where sharia law could be recognized, presumably any courts concerning Muslim marriages and divorce that exist have limited recognition?
I doubt you would get the same reaction for any other religious group's laws tweety_pie. One example is the case of the cow up north that had to be killed with opposition from the Hindu temple. While the religion there was in direct opposition to British law, it was painted in a much more sympathetic light.
There is a palpable undercurrent of hostility and xenophobia here quite distinct from any legal qualms one may have.
I'm afraid i dont have any refrences to provide you with,living in the uk though i am very much aware that these courts do exist, more so in the midlands where there are vast numbers of muslims living.
I do agree though the fact that because this story involved islam it has lead to more hype and uproar, but what can you do?? There is so much hate for islam, well the islam that they know, which is not the true islam. Also u mentioned the sacred cow story, Come to think of it hardly any coverage was given to that story and any that there was, was covered very sympathetically, i absoluetly agree with you. Depsite the fact that the cow posed as a health risk to the public and worshippers.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
lets not take it out of context, he specifically said that sharia Laws which relate to MARRIAGE and DIVORCE, and INHERITANCE can be adopted in Britian, like we have Jew courts. he didn't say that there should be courts covering all aspects of sharia laws.
the interesting point here is that those who are AGAINST it, are saying that there is already a legal system in place and every1 should abide the "rule of the Land", if THIS logic is right then countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia also have THEIR rule of the LAnd and we should abide Tand respect THEIR rule of the land. but hey.. we all know that might is always right.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
Seems an intresting idea.. but hen again .. its only an opinion.. it does not have to be carried out ... and secondly ... as it said .. two laws parralel at one time cannot run ..... one or the other will flop ..
and i think .. if there is to be something like this .. then if a rule is broken .. then it shud be reconcilled between two laws .. where both parties ..british law and islamic .. are happy .. this cud work .. but to fully implement one law against another will just cause chaos and ppl will find ways to brake more laws and try to get away with it.
Lets just hope for the best, for Uk and for the people of All religions.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
Seems an intresting idea.. but hen again .. its only an opinion.. it does not have to be carried out ... and secondly ... as it said .*. two laws parralel at one time cannot run ..... one or the other will flop .. *
and i think .. if there is to be something like this .. then if a rule is broken .. then it shud be reconcilled between two laws .. where both parties ..british law and islamic .. are happy .. this cud work .. but to fully implement one law against another will just cause chaos and ppl will find ways to brake more laws and try to get away with it.
Lets just hope for the best, for Uk and for the people of All religions.
are you sure? :) lets pick marriage law for an example. we have British law and then we have EU law.
next example Business and trade law:- if you happen to be JEW then you can OPT OUT of British legal system and settle your disputes according to JEW LAW. if you are an EU national then you can choose European Laws to be followed.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
how two laws can co-exist etc is a question thats not even considered at this point. this is just going to be an oppurtunity for people who dont like Islam to say "see, thats what happens when you let Muslims into the country". Thats more or less what the Fox news guy said.
one completely controvery free way could be the recognition of voluntary contracts between people based on sharia law. the voluntary regulation of things like divorce and marriage. theres a ton of sharia that is not in conflict with British law, that could be recognized as law. people could then decide whether or not they wish to abide by such law.
this is one reason why I feel Muslims should be politically liberal on social issues when living in the West. Yes that means letting Gays do their thing, but it also means you have the consistent right to demand your way of life to be recognized and respected.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
yup i totally agree with you on this, we need to be more politially liberal on social issues
I hate fox news its not a news channel its a propoganda channel, i dont watch it anymore, makes me so angry, can’t believe its the most popular news channel in the states!!!
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
** Rowan Williams, the most senior figure in the Church of England, said that giving Islamic law official status in the UK would help achieve social cohesion because some Muslims did not relate to the British legal system.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
lets not go into the psychology of Muslim women. Hardly relevant. Make it a voluntary thing. You'll soon find out whether or not Muslim women want to adhere to shariah laws and to what degree. Why? None of your business.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
predictably, this was the feature segment on atleast on Fox News pundit's show (Gibson)
it is a pretty innocuous idea in itself, Britain for example has special courts based on Jewish law. it is only when you have contempt for Muslims when you would be hysterically opposed to the idea. If someone voluntarily submits to a particular sort of law, that doesnt contradict the common law, then what is the harm in recognizing it?
I have no such contempt for Muslims or Jews, and I'm extremely opposed to theocratic law in any nation. There should never be separate courts for separate groups, as the government should never be given information about one's religion or belief systems, and a secular nation cannot allow legal judgments to be based on such. I prefer equality for everyone.
We had such separate laws in the United States not too long ago, when black people had to sit at the back of the bus. Separate but equal just doesn't cut it.
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
We had such separate laws in the United States not too long ago, when black people had to sit at the back of the bus. Separate but equal just doesn't cut it.
And as you know... separate was rarely ever synonymous with "equal",
Ppl who want to live under Islamic sharia should just leave US or Britain.
I'm all for respecting a large segment of population by letting them live their life (as long as they're not breaking the law).
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
I have no such contempt for Muslims or Jews, and I'm extremely opposed to theocratic law in any nation. There should never be separate courts for separate groups, as the government should never be given information about one's religion or belief systems, and a secular nation cannot allow legal judgments to be based on such. I prefer equality for everyone.
Not particularly relevant here, since the UK does recognize religious courts for a set of people, so unless you're arguing for abolishment of jewish courts in the same breath you're just discriminating.
Secondly, you say Government should never be given information about religious affiliation. Religious courts are not the only way to that, the UK is a secular government but still keeps track of my religious affiliation, so that objection is also not founded on the realities here.
Unless you are simultaneously arguing for the abolishment of religion/culture entirely, religious law still applies to all of us who choose to follow it. I rigorously abstain from certain kinds of food, for example. I am in an absolute sense, "not equal", since in my non-regulated, personal legal system I cant eat a certain something other people can. I dont see how any law recognizing my voluntary abstention from Ham increases inequality, instead of merely increasing awareness and recognizing plurality.
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We had such separate laws in the United States not too long ago, when black people had to sit at the back of the bus. Separate but equal just doesn't cut it.
[/quote]
I think you are confusing two concepts. "seperate laws" does not equal seperation. Jim Crow laws were as secular as they come. In what world does being secular mean you wont be racist? Churches were infact instrumental in getting those laws repealed (Rev. Martin Luther King and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference were not secularists)
Re: Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law in Britain
And as you know... separate was rarely ever synonymous with "equal",
Ppl who want to live under Islamic sharia should just leave US or Britain.
Why should citizens of UK go anywhere else? Muslims in the UK are like Hispanics in America, a significant, recently migrated voting bloc. Its bigoted to say to hispanic organizations "dont like this law, go back to mexico".
[quote]
I'm all for respecting a large segment of population by letting them live their life (as long as they're not breaking the law).
[/quote]
Non sequiter. People can live their lives however they want either way.
Muslims regulate their lives according to some portions of Islamic law as it is. Things like diet and marriages. In some of these matters, state recognition and application of religious law for those already voluntarily abiding by it does not introduce seperation. Merely regulates it and includes it.
I personally would not follow much of shariah law, if it was ever introduced in a western country, simply because I dont identify with much of it.
its not a news channel its a propoganda channel, i dont watch it anymore, makes me so angry, can’t believe its the most popular news channel in the states!!!