No this is not an arab bashing thread. Its infact prompted by the Azaan a muezzin close to where I live gives. When saying ashadu anna Muhammadur rasoolullah he doesnt place tashdeed correctly on anna, and pronounces it close to una. Im sure he doesnt know what una means, otherwise he wouldnt be saying “I testify that I am Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah”.
I do not understand why both sunnies and shias lay such stress on arabic as the means to Islam. We say that Islam was revealed for all of humanity, yet we are effectively as local, scrach that.. more local than the other religions we say were revealed for a specific people.
Do we expect 6 billion people to learn Arabic in order to be saved from Hell? Is that conversion to Islam or Arabic?
The common argument is that translations lose the meaning of the Quran. A correct translation is a meaning of the arabic text that an educated arabic speaker would take. That is ever so much better than having NO meaning at all.
Do you we expect people in say.. Japan, to learn Arabic before they accept Islam? No, we give them material in their own languages. But when it comes to prayer, they must now pray in a very, very foreign language (much more foreign than for us, where urdu is to some extent similar to arabic). Translations are good for bringing people to Allah, for getting them to believe in Him, but not for worshipping Him, because they lose meaning there. Why should they not pray with some meaning, why must it become an unintelligible ritual? A ritual that they may well perform completely wrong and with completely wrong meanings like this Muezzin and never realise it because for them it is an unintelligible ritual that they have merely memorized.
Ironically most meaning namaz has for me is because of the translations I have read of the Quran. Yet I am not allowed to say what I believe in, merely because its not in Arabic.
Are we not responsible for mythologising our rituals in a way that prefers form over essence?
I support your view. Islam is for everyone equally and not just arabs. Its the thought that counts, for example, when testifying, not a ritualistic chant. Atleast theres one other guy that looks at it like me :) Everyother guy I know thinks its haraam to not know arabic...
well i believe that you should make it a point to learn Quranic Arabic. Afterall it is the language in which our Holy Book is written in. So much meaning gets lost in translation. If you understand Quranic Arabic ...you can benefit greatly from it. However that doesnt mean that people that dont understand/speak it are less of a Muslim then those that do.
=ravage
I totally agree with you, its a shame u will not find much support in the muslim world where views based on traditional understanding refuse to accept any new ideas.
You contradict yourself here. If you say that understanding Quranic Arabic yields great benefit, then you are suggesting that those who understand it have access to a greater benefit from Islam than those who dont. Yet you say that non speakers arent lesser Muslims. How exactly? By what measure are you saying they’re not lesser, certainly from the perspective of knowledge and enlightenment they would be lesser Muslims.
Furthermore, what meaning exactly is lost, that can merely be understood in arabic but not put into words in any other language. I know that the form is lost, the structure may be compromised, but “meaning” is a construct of the mind, not language. Any meaning, once acquired by the mind, can be written down in any language.
This is why 99 percent of translations offer the same meaning for any given verse. Deviations are minor, and any differences in meaning occur between ARABIC speakers not those of the language it gets translated into.
I dont buy this “meaning is lost” argument. Any meaning that can be acquired in human thoughts IMO can be expressed in any language. Furthermore, as far as non-native speakers are concerned, whatever meaning the translations give them, that is the accurate representation of their beliefs.
That wasnt the point I was making. I dont know about scholars, maybe maybe not, but what about everyday life?
why?
Nobody has addressed my post completely so far. What essential meaning is lost in translation, when translations are good enough for preaching the faith to non Muslims, but not good enough to use for worship that would have meaning for converts?
Ravage
Its all about Taqleed, blind taqleed, any debate is either snubbed, bought out or deliberatly ignored. They know their fallacy, yet cannot find the courage to confront age old traditions
The arabic language is what binds the Muslim Ummah together, such that a person in Malaysia would pray in the exact same manner, reciting the exact same words as a person in Mauritania. And when they all come together in Makkah they have absolutely no problems and they pray together. Its this beauty that is unmatched and adored by the world. It is for this sake of this unity (which, for some of us, isnt really a big deal) and as well as for the sake of preserving the meaning of the holy scripture...that such measures have been taken.
Btw, i dont see whats the issue here. Whats so difficult about learning arabic?and why cant we learn arabic? We've mastered the english language, and some of us are even fluent in other languages like french, german, spanish..
Hasan al Banna said that learning classical arabic is from amongst the rights of Islam. Why is it, that in this information age, where people strive to learn as much as possible, we are not able to dedicate a couple of months to learn Arabic.
This is the only point I would find any weight in, i.e. praying in arabic for the sake of unity. But is outwardunity in form, merely for the sake of appearance the only important thing? For that one event every year, one can easily pray in the language of the Imam, why would you require the entirety of the Muslim world to pray in a language foreign to it merely for the congregation prayers? Simpler solutions can be worked out. Would you not be happier if Muslims were united in what they were thinking instead of what they were chanting (without meaning)?
Kuch nahi to furada hi parhnay do doosri zuban main.
As for what non-Muslims adore and dont adore, since when did we start basing our faith on what non Muslims adore? Non Muslims dont adore the hijab aspects of our faith, non Muslims might adore the terrible global bottom of the barrel state we have, why should that be a factor? As for what is good for unity and what isnt, does unity lie in becoming arabs or becoming Muslim? In seeking an arabic oriented identity or seeking a Muslim identity? And since when did we Muslims who do not hesitate to call anyone who differs with us Kafir and Mushrik and Misguided and every other label on earth, since when did unity become an overriding concern for US?
You are still only offering a reason that is preferring form over essence. Merely because it looks nice that Muslims have memorized a prayer that they chant without a majority of them knowing the subtle differences in mispronouncing anything or any meaning of what they’re saying beyond what the translations may have given some of them.
One can only learn cursory arabic in a “couple of months”. Certainly not enough to have much practical value.
While it may be laudable to learn Arabic to appreciate the beauty of Quran’s form and structure and appreciate Allah’s words directly, why must we make that a limiting factor in understanding the rituals we practice? Sure people learn English and French etc but tell me, what percentage of people in Pakistan know English? What percentage know French? If even 30 percent know english or french or any other non-native language, then you’re talking about 100 million people who have never spoken a language other than they’re own. Why are you making worship’s meaning an elitist thing that only those privileged with resources (which includes time and money, most working class people have neither) can have?
It isnt difficult in your opinion to learn arabic. I have lived 15 years in a gulf country and though I would probably muddle through understanding arabic, I do not know arabic enough to appreciate Quran’s meaning in it. Unless you seriously devote yourself to it and spend years on it, mastering any language is not an easy thing once you’ve grown up, and until then, any meaning you extract from the arabic on your own is very likely to be completely wrong, much much more risky than reading and understanding from an accredited translation.
Ravage,
knowing arabic is not enough, guess where all these sects came from? same ppl who spoke arabic. Languages have a tendency to change with time, arabic understood and spoken in the prophet days differs from the arabic of today, then we have the regional dialects which also differ. Was it not the Caliphs who decided it was Bannu Qureish version of arabic tallawat which was given preference while compiling the quran. Even then they had serious problems, which ofcourse are not discussed or debated for obvious issues.
It is the essence of any religious beliefs which need to be understood, when we pray we pray to Allah for forgiveness and thanks, not to show the non-muslims or anyone else. You r absolutely right, this is outward form which is skin deep, what matters is the inner soul, cause we will leave these outer shells when we die, it is our soul our strenght in imaan which will be counted.
Religions adapt as they move forward, one has to take a look at the Prophets life to understand and apreciate his wisdom in accepting the arab way of life and then gradully bring change. Similarly, when sufis and saints brought the message to other regions, they adapted and bought change.
It’s the enviroment which is bringing thoughts like these. There are just a number of people out there who say it is haraam and people just pick up there nose and start questioning.
We shouldn’t question what Allah has ordered us to do. If we do, we start going out of Islam. We can see that everyday of our lives. Nobody can refute that.
“Ha. Mim. A revelation from the Beneficent, the Merciful, A Scripture whereof the verses are expounded, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge, Good tidings and a warning. But most of them turn away so that they hear not.” [41.1-4]
Like Faraz Rabbani says:
"There is great reward in reciting the Arabic, even if one does not understand its meanings, for these are the Words of Allah, and their aural majesty makes hearts submit reverentially.
One should also seek to understand its meanings, through reading a good translation (such as Pickthall’s) with reflection and contemplation.
One should seek to understand its deeper guidance and message through reading a reliable commentary (the best one in English being Allama Muhammad Shafi’s *Maarif al-Qur’an*, see: [www.al-rashad.com](http://www.al-rashad.com/))."
Also there is no harm in performing a supplication during salat in a language other than arabic. But, if one knows Arabic and performs salat in another language, his prayer is invalidated. (Hanafi fiqh)
Plus, the Arabic language is the language which the Quran is in. Allah has revealed his words in Arabic. Hence, we should recite those words the way the are and I would like to add that, if you know the translation of whatver you are reciting, then you should think of the translation while reciting. Not only you understand it, but you concentrate more in your salat.
While it may be laudable to learn Arabic to appreciate the beauty of Quran's form and structure and appreciate Allah's words directly, why must we make that a limiting factor in understanding the rituals we practice? Sure people learn English and French etc but tell me, what percentage of people in Pakistan know English? What percentage know French? If even 30 percent know english or french or any other non-native language, then you're talking about 100 million people who have never spoken a language other than they're own. Why are you making worship's meaning an elitist thing that only those privileged with resources (which includes time and money, most working class people have neither) can have?
No one has answered these very important questions yet
[QUOTE] Why are you making worship's meaning an elitist thing that only those privileged with resources (which includes time and money, most working class people have neither) can have?
[/QUOTE]
Is it really an elitist thing?
U r making an issue out of no-issue.
About a billion non-arabic Muslims learn to pray Salat in Arabic and 'know' the meaning of the prayer.
How many of your children are being taught 'french' in schools for no apparent reason?
