Arabic and Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Arabic and Islam

Icono! Beauty, granted. Meaning? I dont think so. Any meaning available to an arabic speaker is available to an english speaker.

[quote]

Is it really an elitist thing?

U r making an issue out of no-issue.

About a billion non-arabic Muslims learn to pray Salat in Arabic and 'know' the meaning of the prayer.

How many of your children are being taught 'french' in schools for no apparent reason?

[/quote]

It is an issue. I dont know the meaning of many lines in my namaz, and have only now taken the time to find out. Most people, I assure you, will have memorized the quranic surahs without knowing the meaning.

Reading the translation isnt half as encouraged in our society as reading the arabic text. I finished the arabic when I was 8 I still havent finished the translation. How can I know the meaning of my namaz when in congregation the imam reads a surah that is not the one I know the meaning of?

That is not the only ritual performed exclusively in arabic that people may perform incorrectly because they dont know the language. Its Allah who decided that innamal aamalu binniyat and therefore if they say something incorrectly their meaning should be preferred inshallah, then why not just say what they mean in the language they think in?

I dont know what you mean by the french thing?

Guess the GUPPY(5)
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Re: Arabic and Islam

^ come on. Everyone knows the meaning of whats recited in the Salaah. Who doesnt know the meaning of "Allah o Akbar" or Surah Faitha, or "Subahana Rabi al Azeem" or "subhanah rabi al a'laa" or whats in the Tashahud and the Durood and the Dua after that. You dont need to put in any extra effort to figure out the meanings of what you recite in the Salaah.

The only thing that would be worth arguing about would be the recitation of quran done after the Fatihah, but even in that case majority of the muslims do know the meanings of most of the smaller surahs that are found at the end of the Quran. Its true the recitation done by the Imam would go over their head..and for that one can take pains and actually start learning the arabic language.

Just cause one is lazy enough not to bother learning the language of the quran, does not mean that the entire format of the prayer should be changed.

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Maybe you should answer them since your an alim?... joking..

Why should people answer it, we can give our own views or direct people to credible sources.

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Re: Arabic and Islam

Ravage did you read my other post?

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Re: Arabic and Islam

I think you pressuming.

Sometimes things which are very clear to you may not by very clear for other people.

I am not pro-changing the way we pray. but if it helps people to translate it in their own language, I don't see a harm as well.

After all religion is here to make our life easier not the other way around.

Bartan family members
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Re: Arabic and Islam

Guys sory for jumping in here but its quite interesting so i couldnt help...... I think its a pretty simple matter.... If i am right all of us who have given their views above were born into a Muslim family......taught the basics of the religion the kalamas the salat all them things at a very early age....We grew up and now make our own decisions do thigs we like...Have any of us made an effort to understand the language of the religion our fathers and forefathers spent their lives believing in...... I know some of you will think and say why should we have to.....Well lets see...Lets just count the years we have spent in schools and colleges and universities on play grounds on video games watching movies and TV chatting with friends.......Again some will say Isalm doesnt stop from havin a good time and yes it doesnt but the question is how much of this time could we have spent trying to learn Arabic.....Well i be the first one to acknowledge that over the years i have spent lots and lots time on things i could have rather should have used to learn Arabic.....
And trust me guys its doesnt take much.....A very very good friend of mine learned Arabic in 3 months in part time classes. I know people who have converted to Islam and have learned Arabic....I agree arabic can be translated very very effectively to most languages without loosing the essence of the message but as Muslims if we cannot even make an attempt to understand the real message and rather hope for Allah to be very kind to us because we were born into a Muslim family and simply cannot be botherd to take out a few weeks to improve our knowledge well then i dont think we should be hoping for too much....... And i be the first to put my hand up and say yes i should have made more of an effort to learn Arabic but i cannot use translation as an excuse to avoid leaning the language of my Prophet. We are Muslims and if we really believe in Islam then have to take pride in it and make an effort to understand it rather than trying to mould the concepts to suit our own needs.

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Re: Arabic and Islam

Those who do not know the meaning of Salah, should take some time and learn it, for its worth much more than the mundane things many do.

Take some time off GS and learn.

IF
IF
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Re: Arabic and Islam

:hehe: Very well said

new computer and windows OS
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Re: Arabic and Islam

Arabic was a language taught to every Muslim child at one time...It was as compulsory as learning English is today...In the travels of Ibn Battuta, he never had any trouble in any nation wherever he went because from Africa to Asia in every Muslim country people spoke Arabic...

We cannot change the language of Islam to suit our needs and shortcomings...Or to start hating Arabic to the point of, say, like Kamal Ata Turk, who even changed the alphabets and forced forced people to give Azaans and pray in Turkish...

It should be a matter of pride for us that we and our children can read and write Arabic and memorize out Holy Scriptures in its original form so that there is no ambiguity...How many Christians or Jews do you know who can recite their scriptures in Latin or Aramaic or Hebrew?

It is only Muslims who can...

It comes back to the fact that we Muslims as a nation try to change Islam to suit our needs...

Which only reiterates the fact that it is our own failure to practice Islam in its essence that is our bane...

At least you are talking about changing the language of the verses to a native tongue only...There are those that have changed Islam to suit their native needs...

new computer and windows OS
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Re: Arabic and Islam

Much of what is being said on this thread is a repetition of “deal with it” instead of anyone addressing the questions that were put forward in the first post.

Could those addressing me please do me the favour of actually addressing my posts instead of vague ramblings on the thread topic, which does not further the conversation at all. I always address the points of those who reply to me, please do the same with me.

lajawab, yes the world has changed, and we have access and ability to proselytize to a very much more vast area and peoples than Ibn Batuta had seen. Arabic has never traditionally been taught in those areas, nor should that be a prerequisite for such people to understand the religion’s rituals. And what is so wrong with changing Islam to suit our needs, is that not what Ijtihad is supposed to be? Interpret “new issues” in the light of Islamic texts etc.

You say that the text should be recited in arabic so there is no ambiguity. I dont understand this point. You imply that the translations would be ambiguous. Which implies that the person who wrote the translation down did not have the meaning correctly. Which implies that the meaning is ambiguous in arabic too.

Any ambiguity in translation must trace its source to an imperfect understanding of arabic or an incorrect expression in the translated language. Given that the latter can be eliminated by consulting multiple texts, the former suggests that no text can be free from ambiguity if the ambiguity is in people’s incorrect comprehension.

People with a fledgling knowledge of arabic are much more likely to face that risk. It is much safer to consult an accredited translation for Qurans meaning rather than derive it yourself after “learning arabic in 3 months”.

So you agree that some of the rituals of namaz will have no meaning for a believer. You say only in congregation, whatever extent it is, whether or not the whole planet otherwise knows the meaning of the shorter suras is irrelevant. We are in agreement that because of the requirement of namaz to be in arabic, meaning is lost for those reciting it in certain cases.

Now, you say the solution to that is learn arabic, and if they dont people are lazy. Now let me repeat the point I made earlier. There are at most 30 percent of Pakistanies who can speak (and sometimes understand) any other language other than what they’ve grown up with. all of them could probably benefit economically from learning english but they cant because they dont have any or all of a bunch of different reasons…time, money, intellect.

Now this is one country that is close to arabia. Consider the foreignness of Arabic in the far east or south america. We can “sortof” figure out the meaning of a lot of the namaz because the structure and words are similar to urdu. Not so for other people.

Given that you agree that in some cases (whatever the extent of those may be) namaz is not intelligible in arabic, and hopefully you agree that it is unrealistic to expect all of the Muslim world to learn arabic (or any other language) why deprive people of the meaning thats lost in arabic by forcing them to pray in a way they cannot understand?

Do you agree that the only people to whom the meaning of namaz is fully available are those who have the means, ability and willingness to learn arabic? That is very elitist.

Iconoclast: The question is not of me personally or any posters on GS, but of the Muslim world in general, and the need to pray in a language believers are not conversant in. How I manage my time should not be an issue you need to comment on.

cricketplaya: Please cite a reference for that ruling. I have not been aware of that. Thanks. Lajawab what do you think about this ruling, do you feel it is a regrettable changing of Islam to suit our needs?

For those who say that the meaning of the shorter surahs and other arabic sentences part of namaz is known to everyone. Three points:

  1. The meaning is not known because they know arabic. Its known because someone at some point explained to them its meaning in the language they were familiar with. That means that internally if they are not actually chanting the arabic mindlessly they are thinking the translation they were taught. They do not know arabic. Why then insist on the duality of thought and spoken words?

  2. Knowing the meaning of what you say does not solve the problem of mispronouncing what you’re saying and saying something else as a result. Arabic is a very subtle language, and as my first post alludes, the muezzin is announcing to the world that he is nauzubillah Muhammad the Prophet of Allah. What is the need for these well intentioned mistakes, if Allah prefers to recieve His prayers in arabic, does He not mind mistakes made in recitation and pronounciation? How do you know?

  3. Pretty much all of you have come back here and argued from a POV that prefers form over meaning. Can someone tell me why? Can someone tell me why arabic is needed to understand the complete meaning of a “universal” faith’s rituals, which was “revealed for humaninty”?

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wrt my last post, apologies if I was rude, I got annoyed at having to repeat myself.

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Re: Arabic and Islam

You'd think a creator who sent this divine message to the world would know how things would evolve. Why didn't Allah command everyone to learn Arabic to be a Muslim like Lajawab insists we all do?

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would it have mattered? Are we fullfilling all the other things that Allah has commanded us to do?

even if Allah had commanded us to learn Arabic (which really sounds stupid because the initial group of people to whom the Quran was revealed were ARABS), we'd still have acted according to our whims, and as result just accumulated my sins.

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^ thats a red herring. whether or not the majority of Muslims in the world pray does not mean issues regarding namaz are unimportant. Allah did not prescribe or forbid actions based on the whims of people.

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Learning a little bit of Rabic is not hard at all, afterall we expect most people to learn some English to survive or excell, whats so hard about Arabic? And remember "Allah o Akbar" is not same as Allah sab sey bara hai

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The comparison with english leads to the argument that how many people do know english. You with your middle/upper class urban background take it as a given, a vast majority of Muslims do not understand any other language except their native one. Pakistan has 30 percent literacy remember.

And yes, that those who have the means to be good in English have access to better jobs is elitist, therefore your equating the Islamic model to an elitist one.

It isnt about singling out arabic to criticize, if the faith mandating learning English to understand prayer completely I would be opposed to it.

And secondly, a "little bit of Arabic" is certainly not enough to understand the meaning of Quran better and more reliably than an accredited translation.

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Re: Arabic and Islam

huh? by your logic Allah shouldn't have sent ANY message knowing fully well that the majority won't follow.. see the problem with your reasoning?

And the message in the Qur'an isn't just for Arabs.. or if you admit that then it's not binding on other nations or generations to come who weren't Arabs. If the message is Universal, then we have to accept that it transcends language and cultures.

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Re: Arabic and Islam

To be a Muslim [even a very good one] it is not essential to know Arabic language [but one should know at least a few surahs of the Quran in Arabic so that one can perform the prayers. [If one learns the meanings of the ayahs being recited it will help in his/her concentration during the prayer.]]

One can also learn a lot about Islam by reading books in any language one knows.

Having said the above, I believe that Arabic language is the main vehicle in understanding of Islam or the essence of it. For scholarship in Islam full knowledge of Arabic language is a must.

See the following ayahs.

Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran– that you may understand. 12:2

And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
The Faithful Spirit has descended with it,
Upon your heart that you may be of the warners
In plain Arabic language. 26:192 - 195

And certainly We have set forth to men in this Quran similitudes of every sort that they may mind.
An Arabic Quran without any crookedness, that they may guard (against evil). 39:27 – 28

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know. 41:3

Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur’an: that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her,- and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt: (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire. 42:7

Report narrated by Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shaybah (ra) who said: ’Eesa Ibn Yoonus (ra) told us from Thawr (ra) from ’Umar Ibn Yazeed (ra) that ’Umar bin Al Khattab (ra) wrote to Abu Musa al-Ash’aree (ra) and said: “Learn the Sunnah and learn Arabic; learn the Quran in Arabic for it is Arabic.”

According to another hadith, ’Umar bin Al Khattab (ra), said: “Learn Arabic for it is part of your Religion, and learn how the estate of the deceased should be divided (faraa‘id) for these are part of your Religion.”

Imam ash-Shaafi’ee (rahimullah) said, "Therefore it is imperative that every Muslim should strive to learn Arabic as hard as he can, so that he can testify the shahada, and recite the Book of Allah and say the invocations that are mandatory upon him, such as the takbeer, tasbeeh, tashahud and other prayers. And the more he learns the language that Allah Himself chose to be the language of him who sealed the Prophets (saw), and to be the language of His final revelation, the better it is for him!”

Imam ash-Shaafi’ee (rahimullah) also said : “It is compulsory for every responsible Muslim to learn what they can of the Arabic language.”

Shaykh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: *“The Arabic Language is from the Religion, and the knowledge of it is an obligation. For surely the understanding of the Qur’ân and the Sunnah is an obligation, and these two are not understood except with the understanding of the Arabic Language, and whatever obligation is not fulfilled except by certain steps then those steps themselves become obligatory (to fulfil the initial obligation)” *[The Necessity Of The Straight Path by Ibn Taymiyyah ( 1/470)]

All languages evolve over the years and the words lose their original meanings except for Classical Arabic language [Quranic Arabic]. Below you can see the dead languages which will not be understood by anyone except for the scholars.

Akkadian - Assyrian - Anglo-Saxon - Avestan - Babylonian - Church Slavonic - Chinese - Coptic - Egyptian - Gothic - Greek, Biblical - Greek, Classical Greek, - Koine - Hebrew - Jatvingian - Latin Middle English - Old Bulgarian - Old Chinese - Old Church Slavonic - Old Danish -Old English - Old Gaelic - Old Gothic - Old High German - Old Icelandic - Old Irish - Old Japanese - Old Norse - Old Norwegian - Old Persian - Old Polish Old Prussian - Old Slovene - Old Slovenian - Old Slavonic -
Old Swedish - Pahlavi - Pali - Pehlevi - Prussian - Sanskrit - Slavonic - Sudovian - Sumerian - Tocharian - Ugaritic - Yatvingian

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Bureau/8759/langlinks/ancient.htm

So Allah (swt) has chosen out of His Wisdom to preserve and protect the Quran through the agency of never changing language.

“Verily! It is We who have sent down the Reminder (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely We will guard it (from corruption)” (Surah Hijr: 9)

You are right the message in the Quran isn’t just for Arabs [Just like English language isn’t for the English people anymore]- But you cannot deny that Allah (swt) chose Arabic language to convey the Universal message to the whole of Mankind in Arabic till the end of times. Every translation loses some of the original meaning and with multitude of translations in different language we still have to refer to the Arabic text for the real meaning.

All the translators of the Quran have stated that the essence of Quran is lost in translations.

**PakistaniAbroad **- It is no secret and neither do you hide it - that you are a confirmed Quranist - That is - You want to understand Quran without referring to what the Prophet (saw) had said (Hadith and Sunnah).

Now you are advocating that essence of Islam should be understood without the agency of Arabic!!!

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Re: Arabic and Islam

He did however command Muslims to pray 5 times a day…How many Muslims obey this command to the letter?

Perhaps if we started obeying and implementing the basics first then perhaps we can go on to discuss bigger things like whether it is feasible to pray in our native language…

I know I wouldn’t…As a Muslim it is my job to follow Islam as much in its absolutely pristine form as possible which includes reciting and memorizing Quran for worship in its true language…

Translations always mess things up a lot…Like, it wouldn’t be the same to perform Salat in Lahore in Punjabi, then go to Peshawar and perform it in Pushto, then go to Karachi and perform it in Urdu…

Then not to mention, there would be more sects and more arguments over whose translations to follow…

Qadiyanis to this day, despite the whole world and every translator in the world proving that ‘khatam’ means ‘end’, follow Mirza Ji’s command that khatam means ‘best’…Not ‘end’…

So it’s a dilly pickle, and Allah :swt: surely knew what would happen, that is why no changes were made to the language and the performance of how Salat should be performed…

The actions may be different according to interpretations, but the language is universal…

There is no doubt about that…

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Re: Arabic and Islam

Ibn Sadique bhai! AoA.

I guess I cannot argue with the ahadis, you can understand that they would not convince me. But the verses you cite are very relevant, thank you.

Aside from this

[quote]

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know. 41:3

[/quote]

Each of the quranic verses are about nuzool e Quran on the Prophet in arabic, which doesnt necessarily mean that the broader public in general must know arabic to use it (with the intended meaning) in their prayers.

However, this verse does suggest that to me. I'll agree that this verse does tie in meaning of verses with arabic in context of "people who know". So I will accept that reading in arabic has more meaning.

Can you comment on the questions I raise throughout this thread though. How do average Muslims who do not have the means to learn arabic in order to understand the Quran find meaning in their prayer when there are a lot of occasions when that prayer is completely unintelligible for them? (congregational prayers, aamaal, tarawih are three instances i can think of immediately).How can we claim that Islam is a universal religion revealed for all of humanity when we restrict the meaning of prayer (in its entirety) to those who know arabic?

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, I do feel perturbed about this.