Apply logic and religion within Islam..

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Sabah (gupshup member) started a very interesting thread on logic and religion and I believe this thread to be an offshoot of the same type of discussion.

Keeping logic and religion in mind :-

In terms of religion, just for one second lets believe jesus is in heaven, waiting for his return to this earth. Then, how can he be up there without food or water, when it is againt the nature of Allah to allow a human to live without the basics of life.

**[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away. **

I know that people who may want to counter attack this scenario, will say well Allah is mighty and possible of every miracle. Well, then for the sake and interest of logic and religion, which supposedly applies in Islam, according to muslims, how can a human survive the heavens without food and water ? Especially when the quran itself states that he lived on food.

  1. Also, when prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the king of all prophets and the best of prophets…then why did Allah not give him the honour and keep him up in the heavens instead of Isa ?

Let us now try to apply some logic and reason to these scenarios…

2

I want to hear replies with logic and reasoning, not emotions.

3

I beg to differ. I don't see a direct correlation between religion and logic. Sometimes the two may not be interchangeable. For example, asking how Jesus (swt) survives up there without food and water thats the same as asking how did Jesus (swt) live this long? Isn't he human? In the same way, how did Musa (swt) part the seas, how did he have a transparent arm, how did his staff turn into a snake, how did God talk to him thru a tree? There is no limit so such questions and its best to take things like these on faith.

4

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
I want to hear replies with logic and reasoning, not emotions.
[/QUOTE]

How can you apply human nature compared to the abilities of allah(swt)

You are trying to reduce allah(swt) to abilities and situations of human astagfirullah.

5

Absolutely NOT. I already said DO NOT bring emotions. Use logic and reason that Allah has provided us (humans) with.

I am trying to say that Islam is a religion of logic and reason. Nothing according to the teachings of the quran are contrary to what Allah has said. It is because man cannot survive without food and water, that it is impossible to believe that Jesus is right now sitting in the heavens, waiting to come down. The quran itself says that he ate food like all humans do.

That is the point where I said use logic and reason....given to us by ALLAH (saw). None other.

6

Logical to have a coronary whilst voiding ones bowel? Reason go figure, God works in mysterious and ultimately hilarious ways.

There's a lesson in it for us all.

7

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
Logical to have a coronary whilst voiding ones bowel? Reason go figure, God works in mysterious and ultimately hilarious ways.
There's a lesson in it for us all.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it can be sought logical to die a "human" death any which way is possible. That is certainly believable. But you are still not working with any "noble winning" rationale with the concept of Jesus up in the skies. You have no point. So better not to say anything that makes no sense.

God works in hilarious ways ? I am sure He would love to hear that come from you directly.

8

Since nobody had anything constructive to say, it can be honestly said that logic and Islam do go hand in hand, however, add some people without any rationale, as observed clearly, and all of a sudden the big picture gets easily distorted.

9

Sometimes faith replaces logic.

10

Faith can ONLY be based upon logic. Then it is true faith and then only one confirms their belief in it.

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Faith can ONLY be based upon logic. Then it is true faith and then only one confirms their belief in it.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong.You need faith to base anything upon logic. Religion isnt always about logic.Its about belief. If a person believes in a Supreme Being (Allah in my case) - then faith is a must - its the foundation. God cant be proven by logic- neither can that connection that only comes by faith.

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *

Wrong.You need faith to base anything upon logic. Religion isnt always about logic.Its about belief. If a person believes in a Supreme Being (Allah in my case) - then faith is a must - its the foundation. God cant be proven by logic- neither can that connection that only comes by faith.
[/QUOTE]

I never said that they don't go hand in hand. If you have faith in something that is because you believe in its logic. Why would someone have faith in something that is illogical ? That does not make sense.

13

Re: Apply logic and religion within Islam..

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Sabah (gupshup member) started a very interesting thread on logic and religion and I believe this thread to be an offshoot of the same type of discussion.

Keeping logic and religion in mind :-

In terms of religion, just for one second lets believe jesus is in heaven, waiting for his return to this earth. Then, how can he be up there without food or water, when it is againt the nature of Allah to allow a human to live without the basics of life.

*[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away. *

I know that people who may want to counter attack this scenario, will say well Allah is mighty and possible of every miracle. Well, then for the sake and interest of logic and religion, which supposedly applies in Islam, according to muslims, how can a human survive the heavens without food and water ? Especially when the quran itself states that he lived on food.

2) Also, when prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the king of all prophets and the best of prophets....then why did Allah not give him the honour and keep him up in the heavens instead of Isa ?

Let us now try to apply some logic and reason to these scenarios...
[/QUOTE]

Diva4U

[QUOTE]
In terms of religion, just for one second lets believe jesus is in heaven, waiting for his return to this earth. Then, how can he be up there without food or water, when it is againt the nature of Allah to allow a human to live without the basics of life.
[/QUOTE]

You do believe that hazrat Adam [as] and hazrat Huwaa ra were residing in the Garden of Eden before they were banished to the Planet Earth.

Since they were Human and must eat food and drink water to survive, they must have been provided these in the Garden of Eden. So if Allah (saw) can provide them with sustenance in Garden of Eden and then later on the Planet Earth, logically He can do the same for Hazrat Essa [as). [ Providing him his rizq on Earth and then later in the Heaven].

"Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it 'Be', and it is" (Yasin, 36:82).

[QUOTE]
[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
[/QUOTE]

The above is addressed to the Christians who had deified Jesus to be the son of God. Here Allah (swt) is telling the Christians that The Messiah (Jesus) is son of Mary and not of Allah (swt) and that Jesus was a Messenger of Allah (swt) like the ones of ages ago and have since died. By saying that they (Jesus & Mary) ate food, Allah (swt) is confirming their Humanness and receiving their sustenance from Him.

[QUOTE]
2) Also, when prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the king of all prophets and the best of prophets....then why did Allah not give him the honour and keep him up in the heavens instead of Isa ?
[/QUOTE]

  • (He is) The Doer of whatever He pleases. (85:16)*

We do not question why Allah (swt) has done this or that. At least millions upon millions of Muslim do visit the grave of Prophet Muhammad (saw) to pay him the respects after having performed Hajj or Umrah.

Now where can the Christian go to pay their respects to Jesus Christ?

We, the Muslims do believe that Hazrat Essa (as) [Jesus] will come back to the Planet Earth and when he will die, he will be buried next to the Grave of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

14

"Do you have evidence from the Quran to support your conviction that Jesus(pbuh) is alive and that he was raised alive?'

15

Re: Apply logic and religion within Islam..

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *

Then, how can he be up there without food or water...
[/quote]

Firstly, who said he was up there "without food or water"?

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
"Do you have evidence from the Quran to support your conviction that Jesus(pbuh) is alive and that he was raised alive?'
[/QUOTE]

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! *I will take thee and raise thee to Myself * and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. [3:55]

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah":- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- [4:157 -159]

And now you are going to bring some evidence from 'some history' books claiming that he died and is buried in Kashmir, are you? Holy Quran was revealed some 600 years after Hazrat Essa (as), why did not Allah [swt] give this info in the Quran that Jesus is buried in Kashmir,as the Qadiyanis believe? If not in Quran, at least the hadith would have mentioned the fact [as the Qadiyanis believe that Hazrat Essa (as) is buried in Kashmir!]

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! *I will take thee and raise thee to Myself * and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. [3:55]

[/QUOTE]

Excellent! So according to this verse, Allah raised jesus to 'HIMSELF'. So can you please tell me where is Allah? I would love to hear it from you.

18

^ You tell me where was Allah (swt) when He was addressing the angels to prostrate to Hazrat Adam (as)?

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
^ You tell me where was Allah (swt) when He was addressing the angels to prostrate to Hazrat Adam (as)?
[/QUOTE]

So you think, Allah is a physical being, meaning, a 3 dimensional being?

20

No, but I trust and believe in Prophet Muhammad (saw) when he says that he did meet with Hazrat Essa (as) during the Miraj in the Heavens.