[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
No, but I trust and believe in Prophet Muhammad (saw) when he says that **he did meet with Hazrat Essa (as) during the Miraj in the Heavens.*
[/QUOTE]
So, did he only meet Hadhrat Isa during the Miraj? What about hadhrat adam, hadhrat musa, hadhrat ibrahim and many others. Are all those alive 'bodily' up in the heavens too?
Yes, and does that surprise you?
**
So, you are expecting other prophets that he met to come down bodily also. I thought, only hadhrat Isa:as: is alive up in heavens according to your belief. A news for me!
Btw, Huzur:saw: met a ‘burhiya’ (an old lady) in his miraj too. Would she come down to save humanity too?*
Jesus Will Return - by Harun Yahya
A book that may interest some people here.
Re: Apply logic and religion within Islam..
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Diva4U: **
In terms of religion, just for one second lets believe jesus is in heaven, waiting for his return to this earth. Then, how can he be up there without food or water, when it is againt the nature of Allah to allow a human to live without the **basics of life.
[/quote]
Define the basics of life first then I can give you an elaborative answer.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
*[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away. *
[/quote]
I think what you have quoted above is Verse 75 or Chapter 5:
The Messiah , son of Mary , was no other than a messenger , messengers ( the like of whom ) had passed away before him . And his mother was a saintly woman . And they both used to eat ( earthly ) food . See how we make the revelations clear for them , and see how they are turned away!
Can you please reconfirm the exact source?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
I know that people who may want to counter attack this scenario, will say well Allah is mighty and possible of every miracle. Well, then for the sake and interest of logic and religion, which supposedly applies in Islam, according to muslims, how can a human survive the heavens without food and water ?
[/quote]
Point one: I dont see any scenario being generated yet.
Point two: if you are using this verse as a evidence of your claim that Jesus[as] needs food to live. The you should realise the words used. It says they "used to eat (earthly) food"
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Especially when the quran itself states that he lived on food.
[/quote]
you see food was not s'thing which provided and ensure life to Jesus [as]. If you believe food is the assurance of the life then let me know, I'll discuss the point otherwise be elaborative to let me know what you intend to say.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
2) Also, when prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the king of all prophets and the best of prophets....then why did Allah not give him the honour and keep him up in the heavens instead of Isa ?
[/quote]
I do have an answer to that and would be more than happy to respond. But first things first:
*Q: * What makes you think that riasing up alive is greatest status a human can have? Support your answer with logic.
Only if you would be able to prove your point then your question would be valid otherwise you should not ask, at least not in this context.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Let us now try to apply some logic and reason to these scenarios...
[/QUOTE]
Look who is talking.
Just like Muslims, you, the Qaiyanis also when told of a distressing news say: “To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return” following the Qurannic command: Who say, when afflicted with calamity: “To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return” - [2:156]
Enlighten me as to “how are we to return to Allah (swt). Allah (swt) is everywhere, is our returning to Him is to everywhere”? Seems so by your logic.
Allah (swt) has put Essa (as) whereever He wants him (Essa (as)) to be.
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; **many were the messengers that passed away ** before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [5:75]
Holy Quran has confirmed that the Messengers before hazrat Essa (as) had died! So how could they be up there in bodily sense?
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not. 2:154
I also believe that the Shaheeds are alive too, following the above ayah.
Mr. Ibn Sadique,
Was Jesus (As) the only prophet to meet Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) bodily. According to your logic, all the other prophets shouldn't have a body as they have already died! What about that old woman who met the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) during Meraj. Did she have a physical body or was just a spiritual being.? What about that Tree (Sidratul Muntaha)? Was that tree also used in metaphorical sence or is a real tree some where in space?
BTW you didn't answer brother ZakiAhmed's question of Allah having a physical 3D body (Naozobillah) sitting some where in space.
What will this discussion of jesus alihaus saalm alive/not alive in heaven will prove....even if you prove that jesus is not alive..still i will not belive mirza to be the massiah.....reasons....read his splendid books....
[QUOTE]
Khuda nay mujh per qooate rajjoliat ke..phir mai hamil ho gaya aur issa paida hoa..aur mai wahi issa hoon
[/QUOTE]
- if i rember correctly..these were mirza sahibs words....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Ibn Sadique,
Was Jesus (As) the only prophet to meet Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) bodily. According to your logic, all the other prophets shouldn't have a body as they have already died! What about that old woman who met the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) during Meraj. Did she have a physical body or was just a spiritual being.? What about that Tree (Sidratul Muntaha)? Was that tree also used in metaphorical sence or is a real tree some where in space?
BTW you didn't answer brother ZakiAhmed's question of Allah having a physical 3D body (Naozobillah) sitting some where in space.
[/QUOTE]
Mr. fatehahmad
I don’t know what ‘form’ the souls take when they go into the ‘other world’. Prophet Muhammad (saw) has told us that he met the Prophets; that suffices for me. I don’t want to speculate on in what form they were and I do not speculate on what I don’t know. About Jesus (as) I know and believe that he was taken up in bodily form and that he will return when Allah (saw) wills.
[QUOTE]
BTW you didn't answer brother ZakiAhmed's question of Allah having a physical 3D body (Naozobillah) sitting some where in space.
[/QUOTE]
I did answer ZakiAhmed's question. See below with one word - No
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
**No, * but I trust and believe in Prophet Muhammad (saw) when he says that he did meet with Hazrat Essa (as) during the Miraj in the Heavens.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Let us now try to apply some logic and reason to these scenarios...
[/QUOTE]
Below are some of the quotations from Mirza Ghulam Ahmed’s books with references; please try to explain them by applying some logic and reason to them.
"God entered my body ... and in this condition I was saying that WE WANT A NEW SYSTEM AND NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH. Thus initially I created Heaven and Earth in a condensed form in which there was no system or differentiation, then according to God's wish, I created a system and differentiation, and I was watching that I have the power to create this. Then I created the Asmaan-e-Duniya (Lowest Heaven) and said that 'We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps". Then I said that now we will create human from the extract of earth..." (Kitab-ul-Bariyah, Roohani Khazain vol. 3 p. 104-105)
"Like Maryam the soul of Eisa was breathed into me and metaphorically I was made pregnant, and after many months, which were not more than 10 months, through that inspiration which is mentioned in the end of Braheen Ahmadiyya part 4 page 556, I was converted from Maryam to Eisa, thus this is how I became Eisa Ibne Maryam." (Kishtee-e-Nooh, Roohani Khazain vol. 19 p. 50)
Can you support your argument from Quran and hadith that Jesus :as: was taken up to heavens “bodily”?
Mr. Ibn Siddique
You quoted :
[QUOTE]
"Like Maryam the soul of Eisa was breathed into me and metaphorically I was made pregnant, and after many months, which were not more than 10 months, through that inspiration which is mentioned in the end of Braheen Ahmadiyya part 4 page 556, I was converted from Maryam to Eisa, thus this is how I became Eisa Ibne Maryam." (Kishtee-e-Nooh, Roohani Khazain vol. 19 p. 50)
[/QUOTE]
May be you forgot to read the word metaphoricaly (bold in the above statement).
^ No, I did not forget the word metaphoricaly. Just try explaining the two statements by applying some logic and reason. I want to know how you understand it within logic and reason.
Mr. Ibn Sidique,
Why don’t you read it for yourselves in Urdu. It is available online at http://www2.alislam.org/pdf/rk.pdf
Maybe you would get a clearer picture. And just to let you know, This was an Ilhaam/Vision from Allah.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
"God entered my body ... and in this condition I was saying that WE WANT A NEW SYSTEM AND NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH. Thus initially I created Heaven and Earth in a condensed form in which there was no system or differentiation, then according to God's wish, I created a system and differentiation, and I was watching that I have the power to create this. Then I created the Asmaan-e-Duniya (Lowest Heaven) and said that 'We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps". Then I said that now we will create human from the extract of earth..." (Kitab-ul-Bariyah, Roohani Khazain vol. 3 p. 104-105)
[/QUOTE]
mere bhai, this was a 'kashaf' (dream). If you've read the full paragraph or infact full book, you will have a better understanding of these words.
Fatehahmad/zakiahmed
I am sorry that I can’t read Urdu. It may be an Ilhaam/Vision or a 'kashaf' (dream). Using Logic and Rationality, how do you understand and explain those statements. What significance do these words hold for you? Remember the topic of the thread is "Apply logic and religion within Islam..".
Mr. Ibn Sidique,
Please read the whole paragraph in its original form:
[QUOTE]
'In a vision I saw that I myself was God and believed myself to be such. I felt that I had no will or thought or action of my own left, and that I had become like something which was being completely overpowered by something else that had absorbed me wholly so that my own being had completely disappeared. I saw the divine spirit envelop my soul and covering my body hide me completely in itself so that not a particle of me remained. I beheld myself as if all my limbs had become His, my eyes had become His eyes, my ears had become His ears and my tongue had become His tongue. My Lord seized me with such great force that I disappeared in Him and I felt that His power was surging in me and that His divinity was coursing through me. The Lord of honor then set His camp around my heart and the Lord of power ground down my soul so that there was no more of me nor any desire of mine left. My whole structure was demolished and only the structure of the Lord of the universe remained visible.
The Divine overcame me with such force that I was drawn to Him from the hair of my head to the nails of my toes. Then I became all spirit which had no body and became an oil which had no dregs. I was separated completely from my ego and I became like something which was not visible or like a drop which had become merged in the ocean so that the ocean comprehended it in its vastness. I no longer knew what I had been before nor what my being was. Divinity coursed through my veins and muscles. I was completely lost to myself and God Almighty employed my limbs for His purpose and took possession of me with such force that nothing exceeded it. By this seizure I became non existent. I believed that my limbs had become God's limbs and I imagined that I had discarded my own being and had departed from my existence, and that no associate or claimant had remained as an obstruction. God Almighty entered wholly into my being and my anger and my gentleness, and my bitterness and my sweetness and my movement and my inertness all became His. In this condition I said: I desire a new universe, a new heaven and a new earth.'7
[/QUOTE]
.
Now read the above paragraph in its whole context and let us know if you still find anything objectionable or illogical or irrational
Mr. Ibn Sidique,
Now regarding the second quote and the original extract:
[QUOTE]
"'In the third part of Braheen e Ahmadiyya, God had named me Mary and as apparent from it, I was nurtured in the qualities of Mary for two years. When a period of two years lapsed then, as stated on page 496 of the 4th volume of Braheen e Ahmadiyya, the soul of Jesus was infused in me as it was infused in Mary and, in an allegoric sense, I was stated to be pregnant. Thereafter, affer many months not exceeding a period of ten months after this revelation, I was, through a revelation recorded at the end of Braheen e Ahmadiyya on page 556, named Jesus and hence I came to be the son of Mary.'18." (Kishtee-e-Nooh, Roohani Khazain vol. 19 p. 50)
[/QUOTE]
.
This statement by Hazrat Promised Messiah (AS) indicates that for a period of as much as two years, he spent his life being invested with the qualities possessed by Hadhrat Maryam, the most prominent of these being her sense of dependence upon the Gracious God, Allah and of duty and obligation to Him; her being purified and chosen above others of her time; honoured by God Almighty and granted nearness to Him and her purity and truthfulness. Then after that period He was renamed Jesus and the qualities of Hazrat Eesa (AS) infused into him and the attributes of Jesus (AS) awarded to him.
^
and was he the promised messiah in the real sense or was he just gifted with the attributes????
Mr. Armughal,
He was the Promised Messiah in real sense because besides having the attributes of being a Messiah, he was also told by Allah that he is the awaited Messiah and Mehdi