Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

@psyah

Yes and I said the problem with evolution is that it is a non-falsifiable dogma … If it is scientific then what things do we need to see or perform a viable experiment in order to disprove the theory?

Secondly, Islam is a way of life … And the Qur’an is the truth … No doubt … Means not at any level … The verses used to explain to us “Do you not look at …” so and so surroundings when it uses this language it is appealing to our scientific minds … To investigate … It means that there is synergy with science here … By separating science from Islam we are secularising it … This has dangerous political ramifications as well as religious ones … When it warns us not to tamper with the Creation of Allah (SWT) we may become blind to what It is asking from us …

Correct me if I’m wrong and please don’t take this the wrong way, but aren’t you an Engineer, not an evolutionary Biologist??

Secondly, I don’t have time to post an entire rebuttal, so I will let you respond to a simple Google of “Is evolution falsifiable” and let you respond. The is from wikipedia.

"Creationists such as Henry M. Morris have claimed that evolution is unfalsifiable. They claim that any observation can be fitted into the evolutionary framework, and that therefore it is impossible to demonstrate that evolution is wrong. As such, they claim that evolution is non-scientific.[SUP][52]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][53]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

However, evolution is considered falsifiable by scientists because it can make predictions that, were they contradicted by the evidence, would falsify evolution. Several kinds of evidence have been proposed that could falsify evolution, such as the fossil record showing no change over time, confirmation that mutations are prevented from accumulating, or observations showing organisms being created supernaturally or spontaneously.[SUP][52]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Many of Darwin’s ideas and assertions of fact have been falsified as evolutionary science has developed and has continued to confirm his central concepts.[SUP][54]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][55]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Despite this, creationism consists largely of unsubstantiated claims that evolution has been falsified.[SUP][52]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)[/SUP] In contrast, creationist explanations involving the direct intervention of the supernatural in the physical world are not falsifiable, because any result of an experiment or investigation could be the unpredictable action of an omnipotent deity.[SUP][56]](Objections to evolution - Wikipedia)"[/SUP]

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

Further reading on the FALSIFIABILITY of Evolution…
Both creationist and intelligent design writers have asserted that evolution is at best a poor scientific theory, because it is not “falsifiable,” which in the parlance of scientific philosophy means that the theory is too flexible – no test could be devised that decisively rejects its key tenets. Creationist Ken Ham, for instance, has argued that theories such as evolution and the big bang cannot be tested, because no scientists were present to directly observe whether or not the conjectured events really took place Ham2011]. Similarly, creationist Henry Morris has asserted that virtually any observation of the natural world could, with some adjustment, be accommodated within the overall evolutionary framework, and thus evolution is not worthy to be termed a solid scientific theory Morris2000, pg. 6-7].
So does evolution really qualify as a first-rate scientific theory, or not?
First of all, it*** should be noted that even some of Charles Darwin’s original assertions have been falsified. For instance, he believed that organisms could acquire traits during a single lifespan and transmit these traits to offspring. But modern genetics has concluded otherwise – acquired traits, with rare exceptions, are not passed on to offspring. The current evolutionary paradigm, often termed the “modern synthesis,” reflects this conclusion.
Karl Popper, who more than any other scientific philosopher promoted falsifiability, initially regarded Darwinian evolution as only a metaphysical research program, because it was too difficult to test. Most of the claims by creationists and others regarding falsifiability derive from these comments by Popper. But subsequently Popper reversed his position***, saying, “I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection, and I am glad to have the opportunity to make a recantation.” Popper1978].
In any event, there are numerous ways in which evolutionary theory can be tested and, if found wanting, would have to be rejected. Here are just a few:

1. Charles Darwin himself proposed a rather strong test of evolution: “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Darwin1859, pg. 175]. This is the basis of claims by various intelligent design writers that various biological structures, such as the vertebrate immune system or the bacterial flagellum, are “irreducibly complex” – they consist of multiple components that could not develop in the absence of the others. However, these structures have been exhaustively studied in the scientific literature, and scientists have demonstrated entirely plausible evolutionary pathways. See Complexity.
2. Famed biologist J. B. S. Haldane, when asked what evidence could disprove evolution, mentioned “fossil rabbits in the Precambrian era” Ridley2004, pg. 66]. This is because mammals, according to current scientific analysis, did not emerge until approximately 40 million years ago, whereas the Precambrian era is prior to approximately 570 million years, when only the most primitive organisms existed on earth.
3. Biologists had long conjectured that human chromosome number two was the result of a fusion of two corresponding chromosomes in most other primates. **If DNA analysis of these chromosomes had shown that this was not the case, then modern evolutionary theory would indeed be drawn into question. This “fusion hypothesis” was indeed confirmed, rather dramatically, in 1993 (and further in 2005), by the identification of the exact point of fusion. For additional details see DNA.
4. Modern DNA sequencing technology has provided a rigorous test of evolution, far beyond the wildest dreams of Charles Darwin. In particular, comparison of DNA sequences between organisms can be used as a measure of relatedness, and can further be used to actually construct the most likely “family tree” hierarchical relationship between a set of organisms. Such analyses have been done, and the results so far dramatically confirm the family tree that had been earlier constructed solely based on comparisons of body structure and biochemistry. For additional details see DNA.

So this accusation of the non falsifiability of Evolution is old hat. Its ground that has been covered and refuted by scientists. In fact like most of the desperate attempts by creationists to refute evolution have already been answered. Simply Google the relevant challenge, and you have over a hundred years of debate to read through.

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

The concept of Creation is so fundamental in Islamic belief ... With those who are claiming evolution is compatible with it are turning upside down the various insights of the scholars and the understanding of the early Muslims. (May Allah be Pleased with them)

Is it true that the Qur'an has nothing to offer on the reality of our environment ... Is it all supposed to be taken as a glorious metaphor? With nothing to do whatsoever with physical reality ???

Let's find examples to sugges the case either way ... Med911 is presenting a convenient argument an apologetic that is bending so far backwards ... It will break the back of the Islamic belief system.

The concept that we were created by God is fundamental to Islam. How we were created, the nuts and bolts of evolution is irrelevant to Islam. Its ridiculous to believe that the nuts and bolts of how we were made is of any relevance to anyone other then scientists. I mean I believe most people are satisfied to know that they born of their parents, but I don't think anyone is interested in any further details. Similarly, how God created man, is not as important as the understanding THAT he created man.

EARLY scholars lacked even a rudimentary understanding of science, biology, anatomy, genetics etc. Even a 10 year today would know what a gene is, but early Islamic scholars could never tell you why exactly a child resemble his parent, because thy had no concept of how inheritance worked. They lived over a thousand years ago, why are you assuming they would have the insight of someone living in the modern era?

We credit many early Muslim scientists for their work, but their work is not inconsistent with evolution.

The Quran is NOT a science text book. Let us stop deluding ourselves with such a notion. The koran offers us answers or at least hints to the nature of the spiritual world. It gives us CLUES to our origins. It does not tell us specifics. If all scientific knowledge were enconced within the pages of the Koran, then there would be no need for Scientific study. However we both know that Early Islamic scientists were among the the most respected in the world, and the were the torchbearers of inquiry and invention. Did they somehow forget that all those things they were studying were already explained within the pages of the koran and hence were wasting their time?

My convenient argument is in light of established scientific fact. For me, my understanding of Islam is informed by scientific discovery. If science establishes something to be true, then I don't throw suspicion on the Science, I throw suspicion on my understanding of Islam. You on the other hand have already concluded that you understand Islam, and established science is what is wrong. If God had said the Sun was a burning ball of melted cheese, despite evidence to the contrary, you would still believe the sun were made of cheese and that the science that establishes the sun is a burning ball of Gas is somehow flawed.

If you think Evolution will break the back of Islamic belief then you need to reconsider the strength of your Imaan. If we hold firm to two basic tenets of Islam, that it is a true religion as revealed by God himself, and that this Universe was created by God himself, then if anything, Science should enhance, enrich and compliment your imaan, not weaken it.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

This verse says that God can will anything into being. This is something we are all agreed upon.

What this does not tell us is WHAT God decreed into being. Perhaps he willed the first spark of the universe into being and thus set into motion what ultimately, perhaps through preordained circumstances, perhaps through divine manipulation, finally culminated in humanity.

This in no way implies that humanity among other things simply came into being. It simply means that God can do so, if he so wishes, however, with the evidence of evolution at hand, its quite clear that he did not simply create man as is. Why he did not simply create man as is, I do not know, but then there are many things that perhaps we will never understand of god.

In the Quran it is said that God made Adam and his spouse, it actually says when He asks iblees to prostrate before Adam, Iblees says that why should i, when u made me from fire and Adam from mitti (mud?).

There is nothing symbolic about the creation of Adam in Quran. I think the concept of evolution and religion don't go together

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Med911 brings up an excellent point. How could an all knowing, all powerful God be able to explain evolution to the arabs. Do you not understand how stupid arabs were back then? Even an all knowing and all powerful God could not devise a way to impart this knowledge and I'm glad Med911 brought this up!

Brother psyah, evolution is falsifiable. We can dig up the fossil record and show there has been no change over time for species. We can show instances of God creating animals supernaturally such as giraffe from water. Please don't make claims that evolution isn't true because it isn't falisifiable. This kind of reasoning should be avoided because then liberals would say creationism isn't falsifiable.

On a personal level, even though I have no scientific education and would be considered functionally illiterate when reading about evolution I know it isn't true.

Yes God did an excellent job of explaining evolution to ancient Arabs. So well in fact that YOU, a Muslim living in the 21st century still haven't figured it out!

By the way, while God was at it teaching those ancient Arabs evolution, he might have mentioned some other Scientific tid bits that could have impacted our lives. For example, did he forget to mention how we could isolate parts of bacterium's and viruses and use them to vaccinate the populous against disease?! Did he forget to mention how diseases like Bubonic plaque were spread, even though it managed to kill millions of people across the world even up to the early 20th century? I mean, the all knowing all wise Allah SWT could easily have imparted tomes of scientific knowledge to the Arabs, and yet here we are, still trying to eradicate Polio in the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan!

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

In the Quran it is said that Gd made Adam and his spouse, it actually says when He asks iblees to prostrate before Adam, Iblees says that why should when u made me from fire and Adam from mitti (mud?).

There is nothing symbolic about the creation of Adam in Quran. I think the concept of evolution and religion don't go together

Really Hmmna? When was the last time you saw pile of mud get up and start dancing? I think a mind devoid of logic/reason and religion don't go together.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

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[TD="class: quote, bgcolor: #FAFAFA"]Sura 15 - Al-Hijr [Al-Hijr, Stoneland, Rocky City] Verse 26-26:
We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

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[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

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[TD="class: quote, bgcolor: #FAFAFA"]Sura 32 - As-Sajda [The Prostration, Worship, Adoration] Verse 7-8:
7. He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,

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[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

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[TD="class: quote, bgcolor: #FAFAFA"]Sura 15 - Al-Hijr [Al-Hijr, Stoneland, Rocky City] Verse 26-26: We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

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So... And a child is born out of a clot of blood, but thats obviously not literal since a sperm and ova are not clots of blood... Now your going to tell me, no, it says a clot but they are actually referring to a clot of CELLS! Another words, the clot must be reinterpreted to mean CELLS, but the MUD, well the MUD is plain old gulli ka keechur.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

[quote="Med911, post:18, topic:265157"]

Really Hmmna? When was the last time you saw pile of mud get up and start dancing? I think a mind devoid of logic/reason and religion don't go together./QUOTE

Haha really? So u r contradicting wats in the Quran? And saying your idea of it is more compatible with Islam? U r either a creationist or an evolutionist

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

So... And a child is born out of a clot of blood, but thats obviously not literal since a sperm and ova are not clots of blood...

Where is this amazing translation of the Quran into wat u think? I have missed it. Also the Quran is supposed to be current till the end of time otherwise God would send another more current book which is not so symbolic

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

@Hmmna

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[TABLE="width: 100%"] [TR] [TABLE="width: 90%, align: center"] [TR] [TD="class: quote, bgcolor: #FAFAFA"]**Sura 32 - As-Sajda [The Prostration, Worship, Adoration] Verse 7-8:** 7. He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,

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oh for God sakes.

You people would believe your shadow is your soul trying to escape if you found something to that effect in Islam.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Really Hmmna? When was the last time you saw pile of mud get up and start dancing? I think a mind devoid of logic/reason and religion don't go together.

And when did u last see any of the other Miracles in Quran? Do u believe that all of those are also symbolic such as Mairaj, the parting of the sea for Musa, angels turning cities upside down? To name a few.
God is not bound by laws of science at least not in islam

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Where is this amazing translation of the Quran into wat u think? I have missed it. Also the Quran is supposed to be current till the end of time otherwise God would send another more current book which is not so symbolic

He doesn't need to send another, more current book, because:
1. Scientists have already done an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of existence through actual science.
2. Islam is not Science and was never intended to take its place.

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

And when did u last see any of the other Miracles in Quran? Do u believe that all of those are also symbolic such as Mairaj, the parting of the sea for Musa, angels turning cities upside down? To name a few. God is not bound by laws of science at least not in islam

Well you haven't seen either have you.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

@Med911

oh for God sakes.

You people would believe your shadow is your soul trying to escape if you found something to that effect in Islam.

Well yeah if that was in Quran Muslims would have to believe it but it’s not so haha. U are trying to marry two completely different ideas in your head.

Whatever floats your boat

[Med911]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Well yeah if that was in Quran Muslims would have to believe it but it's not so haha. U are trying to marry two completely different ideas in your head.

Whatever floats your boat

And you haven't been able to connect any two thoughts together in ay cogent manner seen we started this exchange, so ha ha! lol.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Well you haven't seen either have you.

Nope I haven't.
So how do u believe the Quran came to Mohammad? If u don't believe in Angels it could not have been revealed and angel gibreal had a major role in Mairaj.

And I haven't seen any angels or seen hell or heaven.

[Hmmna]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

And you haven't been able to connect any two thoughts together in ay cogent manner seen we started this exchange, so ha ha! lol.

Cz they can't be.

Either you believe God is capable of creating everything and doing everything or you don't.

There are many many unseen things in Islam and indeed in every other religion, creating Adam is actually very minor for God, when u see wat he did to ad, samud, the making of heaven , hell, angels, countless more.

I m bored with this now will come back later to our riveting exchange. Have u even read the Quran?

[Krypton]

Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Just Google how life started, on earth, it will put the mud/clay thing into context : )