Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Peace All

Please discuss the bases for asserting evolution does not undermine the Qur’an.

Sorry title should say dismissal not dismal :bummer:

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismal?

Well doesn't the Quran say God made creatures out of water? do you take this literally, psyah? if so, please explain how a giraffe can be made out of water. thanks.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

  1. We are taught in Islam that we should speak to people at their level of understanding, and in a way that they can understand.. Makes sense.

  2. The people of seventh century Arabia had no concept of Science. They couldn’t possibly understand Evolutionary biology. They lacked an understanding of the ABCs of evolution. How could God possibly have explained to them the complexity of creation through evolution?!?! Its akin to teach a five year old calculus, and all in Greek!

  3. So, because we should speak to people according their level of development, so to did God explain to the people of Arabia in terms which they could understand.

  4. Because we should explain in a way they can understand, and because poetry was such a strong and intrinsic part of Arabian culture, so God used the poetic verse as medium of choice. And poetry tends to be symbolic in nature, and so to are the verses of the Koran. Just a you understand the symbolism in poetry, so should you recognize the symbolism of the Koran.

  5. Because the intent of Islam is not to teach science but to teach morality and ethics, the nuts and bolts of creation are really not so relevent. However God does advice us to seek il’m, knowledge. If there were no knowledge to be gleamed outside of the Koran, why would we have been told to seek it out?

  6. So taking all this into account, the Koran leaves the door wide open. The description of how man was created is symbolic and open to interpretation. And scientific study of how man came to be, along with other fauna, is not handicapped by any preconceived dogma. All we know is that Man is of this planet, and there were at least 2 original modern Humans, given the generic name of Adam and Eve.

  7. So now, we are free to examine the evidence we have and draw conclusions from that evidence. And if we are so inclined to believe in a creator, then we are free to associate evolution with the divine, and believe its Gods mechanism for creation.

I should add, Evolution I find to be very elegant and beautiful, and as such it informs my belief in the majesty of the divine. I find evolution far more compelling and far more intuitive then the juvenile belief that one day God snapped his fingers and we all appeared out of the ground like turnips in some magic vegetable garden!

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

:lajawab:

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

:lajawab: indeed! What a concise and beautiful post Med911.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Peace Med911

Thanks for that ...now we are going to use your basis here to analyse the Qur'an ...

Your rules
4. Qur'an is symbolic like poetry
5. Qur'an teaches morality and ethics

In the light of these 'rules' please explain the meaning of this verse ....

Surah 2:117. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

psyah,

I was waiting and hoping that you will first refute Med911 claim through Quran itself where he said:

[quote]
God used the poetic verse as medium of choice.
[/quote]

Quran refutes it by saying that it is not the words of a poet.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

So a five year old lacks understanding of calculus because his brain capacity is not mature enough for it ... Are you saying that the Arabs could not understand evolution or merely had not thought of evolution as a viable way of the proliferation of life? It sounds like you are saying that people are more intelligent today ... Is that what you are saying here?

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Agreed ... There is so much to his post that I would like talk about ...

And We did not give Prophet Muhammad, knowledge of poetry, nor is it befitting for him. It is not but a message and a clear Qur'an*** ......36:69

And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. ..... 69:41

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

Also you said …

" the juvenile belief that one day God snapped his fingers and we all appeared …"

The Qur’an says …“He says to it, “Be” and it is …”

I consider myself fairly good at poetry … I write lots of poetry … :blush: … I can’t work out the symbolic statement of the Qur’an above that does not mean that juvenile belief that you wrote … Perhaps you can help.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

While I agree that Quran is not the book of science nor it was meant to be that way, but some references were given to science in this book regardless of how much people in those days knew science.

There are also a lot of discussions of above science phenomenon in this book.

Hence, Quran is not a book of science. Not meant to be.

Now what makes you so sure on evolution is open to discussion and I would say you are merely believing on Evolution without any iota of confirmation by science or its basic requirements itself.

There are just too many assumptions without any solid proof in Evolution theory.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

There is one view where evolution contradicts with religious view of creation and yet there are people who think evolution does not contradict with religions or religious books.

Who to believe?

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

Let see if you can debunk some of the points in this video.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

This verse says that God can will anything into being. This is something we are all agreed upon.

What this does not tell us is WHAT God decreed into being. Perhaps he willed the first spark of the universe into being and thus set into motion what ultimately, perhaps through preordained circumstances, perhaps through divine manipulation, finally culminated in humanity.

This in no way implies that humanity among other things simply came into being. It simply means that God can do so, if he so wishes, however, with the evidence of evolution at hand, its quite clear that he did not simply create man as is. Why he did not simply create man as is, I do not know, but then there are many things that perhaps we will never understand of god.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

you do realize that when you post from youtube, often youtube answers itself someway or other.

Ignore the first couple of lines as that is not my way of calling the opponent but that’s pretty much gives counter argument:

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

The bolded part is not true. Evolution is undeniable. Species evolve. Humanoids went from simple minded beings to our current day form. Something caused the development of the pre-frontal cortex. The tail bone is a remnant of our past. That's all evolution.

Like Med911 said, maybe God simply set the rules for the universe to evolve as it did.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

First of all, let me remind you that you yourself said you are NOT A LITERALIST when it comes to the Koran. Which implies that you believe there are things in Koran that cannot be taken to be literal.

Secondly, this is an issue of interpretation. And lets not fool ourselves into believing that the Koran is not open to interpretation. The fact that there exist so many varying schools of Islamic thought is testament to this fact.

Lastly, this verse specifically. God here could simply be saying that you should not confuse the author of this work for one of your fellow mortal "poets," who may be error prone and fallible. This book is of divine origin, and is thus infallible, and not to be taken as another yarn from one of your mortal poets. That does not necessarily mean that God will not use poetic symbolism. God is not undermining the power of the Poetic medium, he is drawing a distinction between the work of the divine and mortal poets.

Instead of calling them Poets, God could have used the term "story teller." Would that then imply that stories (parables) are not valid means of imparting a lesson? Of course not. The poetic medium is still a valid means of imparting knowledge, but it depends on who the source is.

The point here is that God is not attacking the medium, he is drawing a distinction between the divine (who also uses poetry), and mortal poets who also use the medium but are prone to mortal failings.

And perhaps Prophet Muhammad was not a poet, but the Koran certainly seems to employ poetic license. And the prophet was the messenger, not the author. The prophets role was to narrate, and interpret the word of God, not create his own poetry. And yes the Koran is clear, but then poetry is an amazing form of communication. You know as well as I that poetry has a way of expressing meaning in a few lines which might take pages to express otherwise. The poetic medium has its advantages, and it can be extremely expressive. There is a reason why recitation of the Koran is captivating even for those who don't understand Arabic, because it employs a certain Poetic medium, a way of speaking that touches people like any good work of poetry would.

Now perhaps I am wrong and your interpretation is right, but either way, the fact that one can still interpret this differently means the door is still open.

I hope I made sense to you guys.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?

Well there is something called magical thinking. Children exhibit this trait, although some adults as well.

Just as you refuse to believe Evolution until you see a chimp solve a quadratic equation, so must I conclude that things do NOT simply pop into existence out of thin air unless I see it happen. Perhaps God CAN create things if he wanted in such a manner, but I haven’t seen him do it. And so if you people want to indulge in magical thinking, the I can’t think of a better word to describe it then childish or juvenile.

I think God created this Universe to be governed by certain immutable laws, and once this Universe came into being, he choose, for whatever reason, to not break any of those laws. One of those laws just happens to be that matter does not come out of nothing.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

I meant a five year old hasn't any grounding in the knowledge required to understand a concept so advanced. Although its possible people are somewhat smarter in general. The world is a very different place today, of course thats a wholly separate topic.

People in Ancient Arabia had no concept of evolution, of DNA, of mutation, of selection. To explain such things to them would be futile. It wouldn't make sense of God to explain such things to them , when they wouldn't have understood, and since it wasn't the intention of message to explain such intricacies any way.

The Koran simply informs them that they were created by God, in that it is successful. How exactly they were created is not the point, nor is it relevant.

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Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?

Evolution is supported by multiple sources of corroborating evidence. With so much evidence in support, you must conclude its validity. Its is also logical. Its inevitable.