well poor bushy is in getting kicked from everywhere these days so he does need a few fire crackers to hit back at his critics. this is a perfect plan to tell them that you are not safe yet. we still have muslim enemies around us and our crusade is not over yet. he wants to climb the ledder made of muslim’s dead bodies to reach the heights he was at before 911. 
Yes kill the Muslims, that's his plan...or that's what Bin Laden and his crew wants the his brotherly Muslims to believe, well done Bin Laden.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Yes kill the Muslims, that's his plan...or that's what Bin Laden and his crew wants the his brotherly Muslims to believe, well done Bin Laden.
[/QUOTE]
and well done bushy-boy for making your people belive [who obviously don't bother to use their minds to think rationaly] that everything and anything that happens in USA can be linked to bin laden. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by BabyGulabJaman: *
well poor bushy is in getting kicked from everywhere these days so he does need a few fire crackers to hit back at his critics. this is a perfect plan to tell them that you are not safe yet. we still have muslim enemies around us and our crusade is not over yet. he wants to climb the ledder made of muslim's dead bodies to reach the heights he was at before 911. :)
[/QUOTE]
His heights actually came after 9/11. Don't give him too much credit, he isn't implementing this plan. It is the traitors who deserve all the credit.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by BabyGulabJaman: *
well poor bushy is in getting kicked from everywhere these days so he does need a few fire crackers to hit back at his critics. this is a perfect plan to tell them that you are not safe yet. we still have muslim enemies around us and our crusade is not over yet. he wants to climb the ledder made of muslim's dead bodies to reach the heights he was at before 911. :)
[/QUOTE]
Do you think the charges are fabricated? If so, do you feel it is not the duty (as stated in another thread) for Muslims to undermine the U.S.?
I get a bit confused by folks who on one hand do indeed believe this is at least excusable and at most their duty to Islam, while then attempting to pin the whole affair on the U.S. Admin. as just another battle in the perceived war on Islam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Do you think the charges are fabricated? If so, do you feel it is not the duty (as stated in another thread) for Muslims to undermine the U.S.?
[/QUOTE]
and do you think these ppl are so stupid [not as much as CIA and FBI and their leader in white house] that they carry these documents with them anywhere they went. you really want people to believe this rubbish. :)
Who would've guessed? A conspiracy!
But wait, first the apologists approve of these traitors loyalty to Islam but they also want to continue the Muslim victimization theory. You can't have it both ways.
Originally posted by BabyGulabJaman:
they are representing you.
err no they are not, only muslim who represents me, is myself.
Just so there is no confusion, Here is a public service announcement No other muslim is to represent me in any manner unless getting written approval from me. I dont like lame ass weirdos doing lameness claiming thatthey are representing me. Thank you
*it doesn't take a lot to be * ignorent **
Indeed it does not :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Now, is there a risk in using Muslim translators? I know there will be exceptions, but the prevailing attitude here seems to be that fidelity in Islam is the first duty. So, realistically should the U.S. reconsider this or screen these guys more. Or do we get into an ugly profiling mess?
[/QUOTE]
They should be more careful in picking out translators I would say, although the actions of these guys are grounds for treason, as well as an inclusion in the list of darwin award winners, you know carrying classified docs and such..but teh govt has done a piss poor job of picking ppl. Not just translators, go back and read how many illegals and ppl with forged docs were working airport security.
This type of lack of proper background investigation before using the traslators is bad for everyone but teh bad guys. govt may lose some classified data, and quality of translaotrs may decrease. Had I wanted to be atranslator, I would nto touch the opportunity with a 10 foot pole because it would mean suspicion from those around me..
can they pick out the right guys the first time and spend some time screening?
Salaams to the muslims and hi to the non-muslims
Spoon
Yes he could have voiced his displeasure in many other ways, but what he did does not violate Islam. Also in war many people get hurt sometimes the innocent and we can see this from the American presence in Iraq and Afganistan. If America followed what you mentioned they would never have used nuclear bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and agent orange in vietnam.
Akif
You are right brother muslims are under scrutiny in the west especially those who adhere to the teachings of Islam, but what choice do we have ? Do we compromise and say we love america or do we continue following ISlam? THe answer is we follow Islam regardless of the consequences because we know that in this world Allah will test us with many hardships and Paradise is not easy and cheap to enter and we must continue on the straight path siratul mustaqueen, which we say every time we pray. And it is the non-muslims who are following the path of misguidence and we must guide them to Islam, not them guiding us to secularism.
Fraudia
Salaam aleykum brother
With the utmost respect which i have for you i must correct a few errors in your post.
We muslims follow halal and haram and not man made laws. So what the brother did was illigal yes, but not haram, therefore Allah will not punish him.even though the americans might. He chose the Islamic path.Allah says that the muslim is the brother of a muslim, if they do sinful acts then we must advise them in the best manner because none of us are perfect. Also all of our actions have to be based upon Islam not our whims and desires.
BabyGulabJaman
Yes what the hell is going on, is all this by design to achieve a greater goal or negligence only time will tell. When the twin towers were attacked did anybody predict that this would be the justification to attack and occupy Afganistan and Iraq? Is someone did say this then many on this board and elsewhere would have said " CONSPIRACY THEORISTS".
Changez_like
The main oppostion to the corrupt muslim rulers are the Islamic groups, who also make up the bulk of the prison population. The muslim ummah is truly looking forward to the establishment of the Khilafah Rashida as i am sure you are as well.
Cm
You are right and keep on speaking the words of truth and common sence
Finally may the blessings of Allah be upon all those who follow his guidence and speak the word of truth, may Allah give them the strength to carry on until the victory comes and the whole world comes under the authority of Islam as foretold by the Prophet saw who said " The angel gibrael showed me the whole world its east and WEST and my ummah will conquor what was shown to me ".
So come on brother fraudia, changez, spock, imdad, and other good brothers on this forum rush to the good work and gain the reward and pleasure of your lord.
masallams
Your muslim brother always
Showkat
*Originally posted by showkot: *
**Fraudia
Salaam aleykum brother**
Walaikum Assalam wa Rehmat Allah e Wa Barakatahu.
With the utmost respect which i have for you i must correct a few errors in your post.
Please do, that is the only way we will learn from one another.
*We muslims follow halal and haram and not man made laws. *
actually we do follow man made laws too. lets see, speeding, not paying taxes on time, etc etc.. we follow man made laws in other factes of our lives, and we are expected to follow the laws of the land.
*So what the brother did was illigal yes, but not haram, therefore Allah will not punish him. *
well since niether you or I have divine knowledge, we can not be 100% sure whether or not the person will be punished and what his intentions were, but Allah knows and will gauge that person accordingly. So I will not make a call on that but discuss aspects which we can logically discuss.
he chose the Islamic path.
and you would base this on what?
*Allah says that the muslim is the brother of a muslim, if they do sinful acts then we must advise them in the best manner because none of us are perfect. Also all of our actions have to be based upon Islam not our whims and desires. *
and we should let them get the punishment if that is what is needed as a basis of their action.
why do you think this action was to help the muslim brothers? would you help a muslim brother escape from jail if he had hurt and killed others?
and even if we assume that these guys are innocent and were at the wriong place at the wrong time and got caught, and even if we assume that they are being mistreated (even though one person here suggested that american guards have been buying things for the prisoners out of guard's own money, which is very admirable)..even if we make those assumptions, and then assume that these "spies" were trying to help the prisoners..
would it not have been better if they published an account of each prisoner they had spoken to to media, US, european canadian, arab..whatever..human rights groups..thatwould have been helping the prisoners..
..but they did no such thing, so who did they pass this info to? I can guess..what would that do for the prisoners..
so what u see as helping fellow muslims, I, a muslim, see as them colluding with suspected terrorists and murderers and the group that they belong to...
So come on brother fraudia, changez, spock, imdad, and other good brothers on this forum rush to the good work and gain the reward and pleasure of your lord.
InshaAllah brother, I intend to try to continue doing what I can to live a good life, and help those in need, family, friends, neighbours and strangers. Peace
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
CM
people who spied on hitler were part of a nation's intelligence service.
last time I checked al kayda was not a country but an outlaw organization. they are not serving the interests of a nation, even if they try to portray themselves as some sort of defenders of the faith.
....
[/QUOTE]
That raises another question. In Kashmir, if a freedom fighter "spies" for the group who wants independence from India, what would they be called and how'd they b treated? (Matsui, Madhanee and likes are requested to not reply)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
.....
Changez_like
The main oppostion to the corrupt muslim rulers are the Islamic groups, who also make up the bulk of the prison population. The muslim ummah is truly looking forward to the establishment of the Khilafah Rashida as i am sure you are as well....
[/QUOTE]
Corruption is not just in the "rulers", its poisoned all over in the society. Not every Muslim country has jailed all Islamists. Also, the ones who are not in the jail accept the government, they don't "revolt" or "oust" the government...
You talk to different Islamic groups everyone has their own agenda, direction and approach. They can't get along with each other etc.
Yeah, all the 20000 Muslim troops in US are traitors, I wonder when will they be caught doing that. :rolleyes:
You said that “there will be exceptions”, meaning not all Muslims will be as bad, but most would be? :eek:
Way to go, people like you prevail in White House, you have very good prospects of getting a job in White House before GB show is over.
People like you? Sounds like “you people”. Tsk Tsk. Anyhoo, I think there is no denying that the employ of Muslims at Guantanamo has been problematic. So you fire back emotional responses.
Dude, there is another post that refers to this espionage as “the duty” of good Muslims. And I have been around Gup long enough to know that that may not be a minority opinion.
So it’s a genuine problem regardless of your sensitivity to a non-Muslim presuming to wonder about such matters. Muslims are accused in the cases of espionage at Gitmo. And if the charges are proven true, it stands to reason that their Muslim"ness" or fidelity with the Muslim prisoners had very much to do with their decision to break the law. So please don’t attempt to deflect a serious matter with a cheap shot at my character because the implications bother you.
Some Muslims at Gitmo may be neglecting their duty to the U.S. or were conspiring all along. Not because they represent all Muslims or even a majority of Muslims, but because they are Muslims and these individuals’ allegiance is defined by it.
When I say, “All Muslims should be deported”, you may have something to screech about. But with the case of the Muslim FBI agent who would not look into the Mosques, the grenade fragging early in the war and now this Gitmo scandal…I think giving Muslims who are charged with guarding the U.S. against Muslim combatants a little extra looksey, doesn’t appear that preposterous.
So I think there is an issue to discuss, without me being labeled a “people like you”.
Don’t get your knickers in a twist, Sally.
Storch may be right, it is a valid issue to discuss without being labeled a racist or even unfair profiling. There could be more hiding behind the bushes.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
That raises another question. In Kashmir, if a freedom fighter "spies" for the group who wants independence from India, what would they be called and how'd they b treated? (Matsui, Madhanee and likes are requested to not reply)
[/QUOTE]
probably be called the same as what Pakistanis would call somone spying for a separatist movement in pakistan. Traitor. right?
Storch
oh please dont let your interaction with a small subsection of posters in specific forums at GS define your view of muslims.
anyways, personally I am surprised at hoe stupid this guy is if indeed he is a spy i.e. bringing the disk back with him.. I mean really why would he bring the disk back from egypt. I would hazard to guess that he mayhave wanted to sell that info to al kayda..and dinn get a buyer or was not able to make a contact, so just came back with it. but that is as much as assumption as the one that he is a sympathiser etc.
moving on to the point you brought up about better recruitment, sure, I am all for it. The cases like pathetic recruiting of security screeners at airports just suggests that we are not doing enough.
So indeed there needs to be better background checks in general, because just because someone's misdirected sense of religiouis affiliation could pose a problem, going forward someone's lust for money, or someone's violent personality could cause other headaches whether it is in loss of secrets or whether it is getting into trouble.
But I would also expand similar strict quality control and due diligence to other areas as well, e.g. police, because many minorities in urban areas complain about police brutality and prejudism there.
I mean why not create an ideal candidate profile and gauge every applicant by that. so if there is a larger chance of a muslim applicant to have some confusion with their allegiance, do a more thorough background check. If rural background people make racist cops, do a better filtering there and get rid of those who will be a problem. same concept, and in the end the results are good for everyone.. the people who do make it have satisfied a rigorous background check so they will hopefully not be viewed with suspicion by their colleagues, and you get better quality workers.
I mean really its the same concept as stopping certain motorists more often because they are more likely to be criminals.
^
Mr.Fraudia,
I will never allow my experience on Gup or anywhere else to influence how I see individuals of any creed or race. I agree with everything you said. Many factors should go into the hiring of security personnel for many scenarios.
It's just that in this case we are talking about Guantanamo and Muslim prisoners and Muslims working for U.S. military/interest, so I have only discussed that issue. Why is it neccesary to bring in redneck cops and the like (you would find absolutely no opposition from me on the points you made). Our need to equivocate is getting tiresome. Clearly many here get ruffled if a non-Muslim (American in particular) deigns to bring any matter regarding Muslims into question.
It feels like a significant contingent here sees treason against the U.S. ranges from "duty" to "excusable". However, I think we find in this same contingent an intense sensitivity to scrutinizing individuals who may have gotten caught performing this "duty".
I have great respect for you and the messages in your posts. There isn't nor will there be a monolith of Muslims that I form opinions about-trust me I get it. But I think it's OK for me to form an opinion, based on experience, of a "small subsection" (to use your phrase) and what I feel to be the significance of their influence.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
*I will never allow my experience on Gup or anywhere else to influence how I see individuals of any creed or race. *
good words, we should all observe this principle. There are far too many ppl in the world who are making far too many false assumptions about others. lack of knowledge is bad, but incomplete and skewed information may evcen be more dangerous.
*I agree with everything you said. *
sheesh, i should have noted somewhere along the way that I should be in your will :( missed yet another chance
*Many factors should go into the hiring of security personnel for many scenarios. *
indeed, and this goes back to my expereince as a passenger on planes and getting strange looks. I was not happy with it but thought that had the passengers been completely assured that security screenings will prevent anyone with dangerous motivations or affiliations to board the plane, people would not look at everyone with suspicion. same rule applies here..
we were failed by our screeners here, lets make sure that they have better screeming criteria to bring in candidates. because at this point even if i was asked to provide this service I would not simply because to me its not worth it to be viewed by suspicion by others around me, I would rather have a thorogh background check and then go there and not be viewed by suspicion.
*]It's just that in this case we are talking about Guantanamo and Muslim prisoners and Muslims working for U.S. military/interest, so I have only discussed that issue. Why is it neccesary to bring in redneck cops and the like (you would find absolutely no opposition from me on the points you made). *
I brought in other examples so people can start seeing this issue in a different context, sometimes it helps to provide different examples to illustrate a point.
*Our need to equivocate is getting tiresome. Clearly many here get ruffled if a non-Muslim (American in particular) deigns to bring any matter regarding Muslims into question. *
its not an issue of equivocating, but an attempt to illustrate with a different example.
But i do agree and I appreciate your Politically Correct selection of words, I however call it a pissing contest and I have seen stalwarts from all sides engaging in it, there are however a few ppl to do not engage in or play in that game.
*It feels like a significant contingent here sees treason against the U.S. ranges from "duty" to "excusable". However, I think we find in this same contingent an intense sensitivity to scrutinizing individuals who may have gotten caught performing this "duty". *
I dont think there is a significant contingent, pose the same question in another part of the forums and you may get a very different message.
its kinda like driving through cabrini green and asking the residents there how they like Pres Bush..a significant majority of that specific sub-group may say they dont liek him at all and based on taht his popularity ratings would be like 5%. but that does not show the opinions of the vast majority.
*But I think it's OK for me to form an opinion, based on experience, of a "small subsection" (to use your phrase) and what I feel to be the significance of their influence. *
agreed, you have a right to form an opinion, it does not however mean that its right, wrong, valid or invalid, it just means that its your opinion. People have their opinions about your opinions :) let them have those..
when they say that they think its a muslim's duty, I dont go after their right to have an oinion but to question what I think is incorrect there.
so its OK to form an opinion, but the opinion itself may or may not be OK. and us as educated civilized ppl should discuss and re-evaluate our opinions and perspectives. thats what we ask of people who are anti US..to re-evaluate their position and their opinions, we should do teh same for ourselves