You don’t know the difference between “people like you” and “you people”? 
You hold on to your horses, let them come to any conclusion first.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
CM
people who spied on hitler were part of a nation's intelligence service.
last time I checked al kayda was not a country but an outlaw organization. they are not serving the interests of a nation, even if they try to portray themselves as some sort of defenders of the faith.
and whether you are a govt's spy, part of corporate espionage or whatever, once u get caught u get to pay the price. And the price depends on who you are representing and what info are u stealing right...so let them pay the price..
[/QUOTE]
Sorry for the late reply i didnt this thread had been moved and nobody seems to realise what the words "feedback" mean. The issue is not about paying the price. You know the score when you sign up.
The issue is the statement that you made that being a spy is a cowardly and weak act. I think the exact opposite. The members of the French resistance in world war 2 were not a government. Yet they commited acts of esponiage. According to you they commited cowardly acts.
Plus following your statements, its ok for US CIA agents to be turncoatsand side with the KGB?
As for defenders of the faith, that is a difference of opinion not a statement of fact. Your perception of Al Qaeda defines how you see their actions. That is not the same for everybody.
Originally posted by CM: *
**The issue is the statement that you made that being a spy is a cowardly and weak act. I think the exact opposite. *
where exactly did I say that mon ami? What I said was..had these ppl been concerned with the conditions of the prisoners and felt that these were innocent guys etc etc, they could have leaked that info to other places, but they did not, which basically means that just brotherly live for a fellow human being or a muslim was not at work..if they did not leak this info to media and to public at large, who did they leak it to, and what was the motivation behind these people's actions, and what is the motivation of the entity getting this info.
According to you they commited cowardly acts.
err, when did i say that, you sure you are reading teh right post?
Plus following your statements, its ok for US CIA agents to be turncoatsand side with the KGB?
no its not..and if caught the traitor pays for his treason. so should be the case with these guys.
The key difference here is
if one is an agent for US, my allegiance is to the United States. if he become a turncoat and start supprting teh russkies, his allegiance is either to russians or to his greed which is being fueled by the money he would get from them.
so we have 2 possible options here
1) One's allegiance has shifted to another country, and now he is supporting this entity..russia
2) Actions are driven by greed. and motivation is money or other personal reasons.
Applying the same logic to these people's actions
1)if their allegiance has shifted what has it shifted to? islam? err who represents Islam..surely not OBL and his gang. So if they are doing it for religion sake they are completely mistaken. KGB would have been an official agency of Soviet Union, and thus working with them yo are working with the offical agency of a country you are aligning yourself with. Al kayda..is not the official agency of the muslim world (as if there is such a thing as the muslim world)
2) their actions are directed by something else..what is that something else. ahh..now thats for you to figure out.
*As for defenders of the faith, that is a difference of opinion not a statement of fact. Your perception of Al Qaeda defines how you see their actions. That is not the same for everybody. *
well there is some fact involved there. anyone engaging in murder of innocent ppl is def not a defender of faith. Its less a matter of perception and more a matter of fact.
I extracted the word cowardly from the reference to being a weasel. The creature is known for its not so courageous lifestyle. Personal opinion is that they synonims (i am not bothering to correct that).
Your alleigence is to the US. Thus any action taken from that perspective which is against the security interests of the US is seen as treason. However if it is taken from the view of someone who sees the US as an enemy (as in the case of showkot) then the man commited a good act.
It boils down to perception. Depending on the way you see things. You cant say a man was a weasel and make that a statement of fact. Both of you are correct from where you stand.
The only issue i had was that you described espionage as an act of a weasel. Which i dont agree with.
Honestly i got better things to do than worry about some idiot that gets caught. He is an idiot because he got caught.
As for the official agency stuff. The French, Polish etc etc resistances were not official. In the Case of Poland they didnt even get to form the government.
Originally posted by CM: *
I extracted the word cowardly from the reference to being a weasel. The creature is known for its not so courageous lifestyle. Personal opinion is that they synonims (i am not bothering to correct that). *
I meant slimy and not cowardly, there is a difference.
*As for the official agency stuff. The French, Polish etc etc resistances were not official. In the Case of Poland they didnt even get to form the government. *
I still dont see how french resistance could be considered the same as al kayda..
I suppose it stems form anyone against totalitarianism. You're not for it are you fraudz? Well if you're not then you're resisting, you al qaeda nut you.
Seriously though absolutism of the form the US is dishing out always creates more problems than any one regime can handle. The phantom al qaeda is the least of them, it's you guys the tax paying citizens that are ussually the real obstacle to despotism.
Let's see you practice what you preach, with reputedly the best system set up for democracy in the world will Bush get in legally this time?
Thap
the simple point that i was trying to make was that these guys were not trying to do it to help these guys because that could have been better accomplished by making this information public.
This is not a discussion about the US, but a discussion whether these guys actions are some sort of islamic duty, which I propose thatthey are not and have provided reasons for it.
The reason I brought totalitarianism into was get an idea of where the moral understanding is in this situation. The very fact that the ‘detainees’ are known as ‘unlawful combatants’ and are housed in Cuba, outside of US congressional legal jurisdiction, anything goes. Guantanamo Bay is on an indefinite lease and not part of the US and as such US law, in its form on the mainland, does not apply.
People will always find their own moral justification in situations such as these. Addressing the title of the thread, the soldier’s duty is what he feels it should be. There is enough confusion about the status of affairs to encourage such duplicitous thought.
I'm always leaving out explanations from my posts, I just jump to the end....Guilty.
Madhanee,
Don't be so blinkered and engage your memory, rather than argue for or against the Taliban I'll refer you to the hackneyed fact that they were created as a result of the US proxy war against the Soviet Union in the first place. And as a consequence all responsibility for their actions lied squarely with the US anyway.
Retribution is pretty unforgiving for the short-sighted.
If you regard some 660 people being held without international legality, in conditions condemned by humanitarian watchdogs and without being charged of any crime small biscuits then there is no point posting in this thread.
It’s the very ambiguity of the situation and questions about the legal and moral correctness which gives rise to an atmosphere of ‘resistance’, it can’t be avoided. Go ask the Muslim soldiers why they feel as they do.
Madhanee there are only about 5 in all. More power to freedom of thought.
US couldn't deal with a banana republic such as Cuba, how is it gonna fair in 'the Great Game'.
Sorry for the delayed reply. They can not be compared. But we are talking in general terms. Not absolute terms. The comparision is based on the fact that all three are not legally accepted or legit governments. They are military outfits, fighting for what they believe is right (now this is an issue i dont want to touch from Mars) anyway, America is at war. With Iraq, with Afghanistan and with Al Qaeda in general. They are at war with an entity that is not a government, yet they treat it as such.
Simple issue is that the man did what he believed was right. For another man to judge if it was wrong, is just an issue of opinion and not a statement of fact.
Espionage is part of war, part of life. People risk their lives. It just depends which side of the spectrum you are on, and what color your glasses are tinted.
This is just spectulation here...
But maybe...
There is the also the possibility that Bin-Ladens originzation might have the ability to "salt" their people into U.S. orginizations? Like the military? Jobs as translators?
Maybe these guys hearts were with the Bin-Laden organization all along.
Now would the U.S. admit to infilitration of Al Quaada at G.B.? or the U.S. military?
No one expected them to be able to knock over the World Trade Center
yet they did... who really knows how far their reach is, what their plans are, or what they are capable of.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Sorry for the delayed reply. They can not be compared. But we are talking in general terms. Not absolute terms. The comparision is based on the fact that all three are not legally accepted or legit governments. They are military outfits, fighting for what they believe is right (now this is an issue i dont want to touch from Mars) anyway, America is at war. With Iraq, with Afghanistan and with Al Qaeda in general. They are at war with an entity that is not a government, yet they treat it as such.
Simple issue is that the man did what he believed was right. For another man to judge if it was wrong, is just an issue of opinion and not a statement of fact.
Espionage is part of war, part of life. People risk their lives. It just depends which side of the spectrum you are on, and what color your glasses are tinted.
[/QUOTE]
CM
you and I are completely on the same page when it comes to espionage as a part of teh conflict...
but the loyalties of these guys are with OBLs gang, thats their cause. He may have done his duty as an OBL recruit but surely was not a religious duty..
but some want to paint it as such... far right idiots on all sides basically :) polarization helps the far right on all sides :)
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