Re: Another Monster in Making?
AP, Jin logon ke ghar sheeshe ke hon wo doosron ke gharon per pathar nahin phenka karte.
Konsi party aisi hai jiske siyasi aur her qisam ke scandals nahin hain. Elections are contested for entering into parliament, but if things happen as you pointed, then during election campaign ppl will observe parliamani zaban and tareeqa kar on every nook and corner.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
Hi Guyfawkes,
Lets try to have conclusive discussion here, i am of the opinion that PTI is nothing but Monster in Making whereas you differ from it, it is your right to have that opinion and i am sure you must have some solid reasons for that.
Anyway, like is said, lets try to make the discussion conclusive, and let see if you can come up with the comments which can change my point of view, i am entering into this discussion with open heart and mind would like to have same from you.
So here we go:
1) PTI/IK claims that they are going to win next general elections, i am sure you are aware of the fact that there are 272 seats in National assembly distributed across the country and in order to form govt in the Islamabad. Now the situation is that PTI is almost non-existent at UC level, yes they may have representation at District level but that is also limited to certain areas and not through out the country.
Now i am sure you are aware of the importance of the Union Council team and its efforts in building momentum and finally convincing people to vote on the given day. With literally no representation at UC level, how PTI thinks that it can win elections? where the competitor of PTI (PPP and PML-N to name few) do have this set-up in almost all the districts and they would be using it on the day.
The Point here i am trying to make is, how can anyone win any election when they lack the very basics of the parliamentarian form of govt. Please remember that in Pakistan, it is not the Presidential form of govt. where voters can vote their president. One have to win the considerable amount of seats to form govt or have the role of opposition.
Can you please tell us in the light above, in free and fair elections how can PTI win when the basic bodies who mobilizes people on the day are missing?
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Now the un-official but dedicated and maybe only respected column writer of PTI says that PML-N and PPP have jointly made their plans to rig the upcoming elections. What is he trying to say? if any of the two forms govt. then it would be illegitimate govt? **and then the rest can be assumed easily, agitation against the illegitimate govt or is he trying to say to GHQ that the electoral process is dubious so no need of them, just put in the most popular party in power for cleansing?
**Can you please tell us if that is what PTI also believes or if PTI is working on mitigate the situation, things i have stated earlier ( no organization structure at root level) are enough to say that no one would be needing any rigging plan to curb PTI's candidate...
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I would restrict myself to the above two points only, lets discuss them and then move on to the others, on a lighter note, IMRAN KHAN once announced that PTI being the party of the young ones would not have candidates who is above 30 years of age. Does that mean,** IK himself is not going to contest elections?**
Not a fan of IK and PTI.
But these points in no way show PTI is monster in making. Sorry.
These are just speculations tha PTI will say elections are riged. Maybe they will maybe not. Most likely they will. But on wha ground? You yourself say hey have no real support. They could not do a succesfl dharna, ;et alone motivate people against two big parties if they won the election.
IK not contesting? So who will? "One man party" not having the lone man contest?
Think about it.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
Not a fan of IK and PTI.
But these points in no way show PTI is monster in making. Sorry.
These are just speculations tha PTI will say elections are riged. Maybe they will maybe not. Most likely they will. But on wha ground? You yourself say hey have no real support. They could not do a succesfl dharna, ;et alone motivate people against two big parties if they won the election.
IK not contesting? So who will? "One man party" not having the lone man contest?
Think about it.
I think, you may need more thinking on the points i have raised... and these are not the only one, there are more, but i started with these two.. and as you can see, have not got the answer yet.... maybe in day or two or three somebody answers it...
And as far as IK not contesting elections, it is he gave on a tv show that no body above 30 would be contesting elections from PTI's platform, now i can assure you that Imran is above 30 for sure... hence the confusion!!!!
Re: Another Monster in Making?
PTI is considered a new version of Jamat e Islami. People of Pakistan have never voted for such hate America/pro jihadi types. Except for a few die hard activist like Jamat e Islami.. it's highly unlikely that PTI will become a major main stream party amongst the masses. Glorification of suicide bombers by the party leader, dharna, hate America speeches are some of the acts by the party head which exactly coincide with JI mentality.
People who belong to the above mentioned orientation are better off supporting JI compared to PTI as former is at least a more democratic party not relying compared to one man show of the later.. However compared to JI the activist supporting PTI until now have been more peaceful and have avoided any sort of direct militancy.. compared to JI which was the inventor of student/political militancy in Pakistan..
Re: Another Monster in Making?
^^ JI is surely pioneers the idea of violence and arms in Pakistan, PTI on the other hand have its sympathies with Talibans, who are not only armed but have enough suicide bombers and training to support they PTI counter parts...
On the other hand, the hate relationship of PTI with MQM is slowly turning into a love affair, Both are enjoying Iftar parties and i guess whatever Imran Khan announced against MQM ( that they are terrorist and he will go to court of UK against them bla bla bla) is water under the bridge.. I heard that there few MQM members/ticket holders joining PTI.. well what can i say....
so to me PTI is
MQM+JI = PTI
Re: Another Monster in Making?
So far i haven't got any response on the points i have raised in post 46, i hope someday someone from PTI would have enough knowledge and courage to answer those, in mean time lets proceed to point # 3
It has been observed that the party which have limited regional representation or aim and secure limited number of seats number turns to the region-base politics or turns out to be sell outs in the assembly and some time both, in Pakistani politics, MQM, JUI, BNP and ANP are prime example of this.
These kind of parties normally if do not select either one of them, then they are normally just viewers of the affairs and nothing more. They certainly can't form any govt nor they can become opposition leaders... so there existence in the parliament equals to non-existent...
To avoid this getting out of screen or in order to gain attention, they limit themselves to certain ethnicity and it is seen in case of MQM and JI that they develop habit of collection DONATIONS and developing arm wings....
The point here is, if PTI is not going nation wide ( as it seen that in the most disturbing time, the Imran Khan decides to stay out of Karachi, no, mere statement and solutions from remote location is not enough specially if you claim to the ONE who is there to bring the much needed change) the what is point here??? last i knew the whole nation want the change not some selected areas and 14 years is long time for any political party to establish its roots through out the country...
Hence the question would be, if PTI gets, 20-40 seats is NA, what they are going to do with it? whom they will select? PPP or PML-N?
would add more points later...
Re: Another Monster in Making?
Most of the people here know that while I am a big fan of Immi bhai the cricketer, I dont rate Immi bhai (or PTI) very high as a political party and I am not his supporter but he is nothing like MQM or Sipah-e-Sahaba.
Yes he is a dictator in the party most likely planted and raised by 'agencies' but then who is not? Every single party in the Pakistan has some sort of dictatorship within and most of them are planted and raised by agencies.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
On the other hand, the hate relationship of PTI with MQM is slowly turning into a love affair, Both are enjoying Iftar parties and i guess whatever Imran Khan announced against MQM ( that they are terrorist and he will go to court of UK against them bla bla bla) is water under the bridge.. I heard that there few MQM members/ticket holders joining PTI.. well what can i say....
Lets not spread rumors, if you find an authentic news of certain MQM people who are known terrorists then share it otherwise it is nothing but propaganda.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
anything against PTI rumors?
Re: Another Monster in Making?
^^ and with his addition along with few from JI, i think we can easily see where we are getting....
Re: Another Monster in Making?
SO far the points i have raised can be summarized as:
1) Non-existence of PTI at UC level, something which is essential for any political party or something which any political party targets from day one, yet at after 14 years, PTI have very little or no presence at the root level, one may wonder why?
2) The Columnist of PTI, Haroon Rasheed, has saying that PPP and PML-N have agreed to rig the coming election in order to defeat PTI and Only free and fair election can guarantee win for PTI... one may wonder, why would Zardari have to partner with PML-N and viceversa and as per the so-called agreement who would be winning the so-called rigged election??? and what is the criteria of free and fair election??? win of PTI? which is non-existent at root level? and now this is the sentiment with the PTIans...
3) Again, the Change is what PTI is selling! but what the means? to get that change, so far with their attitude they can be called as regional party, just like MQM or JUI or May be like Sipah-e-Sahaba kind of parties
4) Blind following is another trait which can be seen among the PTIans, they normally are so blind that they would agree or do anything their leader Imran Khan has to say, these traits have been hall-mark of our over-all political environment and it is evident that the blind following have not given any positive results.
5) And then comes politics of hatred, Like MQM and Sipaha-e-Sahaba, PTI have based its politics on hatred, they hate everyone, until that person joins them. The hatred is (currently) to the level that they are not even ready to listen anything positive about the one the hate... and with this hate, comes love for their leadership, which as i said earlier is blind.. they don't see what the leadership is upto, how many QALABAZI he have made, all they know, whatever Imran does is right... even if he asks these hard-core followers to start a violence movement (for which taliban would be provide all the arms and ammunition and training) then again it would be assumed as of betterment of the country...
One would argue why these points are so important, to me, all political parties are elementary schools where they train and educate their political activists to be tolerant (the basic lesson of democratic society) today whatever we are witnessing is result of non-tolerant culture followed by base-less accusations on the rivals... and we all may agree that this have brought us the mess in which we are living today and continuing and supporting the same culture would do no good in future...
The Young blood, with heart full of hate for everyone and with easy access to weapons, how long would it take PTI to become a monster is the question which the time will only answer, i sure hope that it never happens that way, but with the non-existent 2nd-tier leadership (same as MQM, their 2nd tier leadership is only a mouth piece and cannot dare to say anything which the Master Peer of London don't approve), everyone claiming to directly reporting to IMran Khan killing the basic organizational chart and with no political training for tolerance it would just matter of time...
Re: Another Monster in Making?
SO far the points i have raised can be summarized as:
1) Non-existence of PTI at UC level, something which is essential for any political party or something which any political party targets from day one, yet at after 14 years, PTI have very little or no presence at the root level, one may wonder why?
The thing is that even PMLN is present only in Punjab at the UC level, although PMLN considers itself to be a national party, and even in Punjab they try to shy away from the council elections ( I wonder why).
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2) The Columnist of PTI, Haroon Rasheed, has saying that PPP and PML-N have agreed to rig the coming election in order to defeat PTI and Only free and fair election can guarantee win for PTI... one may wonder, why would Zardari have to partner with PML-N and viceversa and as per the so-called agreement who would be winning the so-called rigged election??? and what is the criteria of free and fair election??? win of PTI? which is non-existent at root level? and now this is the sentiment with the PTIans...
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you can ask pmln what they think of the elections in gilgit and kashmir? and all the losing parties in the elections i have seen todate have been calling them rigged! anyways i dont see any alliance between ppp and pmln in the coming elections, considering the ground situation ppp will win no matter how you look at the political situation. Agreed pti make make some impact to pmln in Punjab, but whats stopping pmln from getting active in the other three provinces? In the previous election they had the excuse that they didnt have enough time to prepare for the other provinces this time they wouldnt have that excuse.
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3) Again, the Change is what PTI is selling! but what the means? to get that change, so far with their attitude they can be called as regional party, just like MQM or JUI or May be like Sipah-e-Sahaba kind of parties
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in the larger context, presently the only national party whether we like it or not is ppp, pmln has turned into a punjab based party...
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4) Blind following is another trait which can be seen among the PTIans, they normally are so blind that they would agree or do anything their leader Imran Khan has to say, these traits have been hall-mark of our over-all political environment and it is evident that the blind following have not given any positive results.
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lol and what do you want to say about jiyalas and matwalas?
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5) And then comes politics of hatred, Like MQM and Sipaha-e-Sahaba, PTI have based its politics on hatred, they hate everyone, until that person joins them. The hatred is (currently) to the level that they are not even ready to listen anything positive about the one the hate... and with this hate, comes love for their leadership, which as i said earlier is blind.. they don't see what the leadership is upto, how many QALABAZI he have made, all they know, whatever Imran does is right... even if he asks these hard-core followers to start a violence movement (for which taliban would be provide all the arms and ammunition and training) then again it would be assumed as of betterment of the country...
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as far as hatred, and qalabazis are concerned the actions and statements of nawaz sharif should be enough for you to satisfy this point. the speeches of hatred against mqm (now they are brothers), and the army are only a recent phenomena.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
The above reply of Ali-Syed is good enough for what i have been saying
PTI, normally believes in the politics of accusations and despite it claims to the revolutionary party, it always compare itself with traditional politicians and is busy in declaring them as a risk to Pakistan eventually trying its best to make Pakistan one state party... in above reply, Ali-Syed thought I was talking about PML-N, no my friend ( i don't know if you consider my friend or even human knowing that i am not from PTI)... it is about PTI and is claim to spread revolution...
It was all about the claims PTI is making and gound realities where PTI have done no work/effort to make that claim turn into reality despite being in politics for 14 years now...
Re: Another Monster in Making?
I fully agree with you imran is a failed politician with no following, his party does not have a grass root presence. Considering all of these if the country is going towards one party it tells you something about the politics of pmln, don't give credit to imran khan for the failures of sharif brothers.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
^^ Man you need to learn alot and it responsibility of the Party you are in to teach you that, to spread the awareness in its workers and in the masses... PML-N and PPP are the two national parties...
Whereas after being with PTI for 4 years, i have assessed that all the top-tier leadership of PTI have one thing in mind and that seems to be there ultimate goal... which also brings them in the category of Monster in Making.. and that ultimate thingy is, Becoming Senator/Minister/MNA without any real work just on the basis of Imran's personality...
And that is pretty much they have fed into IK's brain and that is probably the reason Imran don't give a $hit about spreading his message... Now we have some examples of the past and present who have the goals... Sipaha-e-Sahaba and MQM... please google them and read about them...
IK or PTI have been assigned the task to marginalize sharfis in Punjab... the same task given to MQM and SSP to deal with them in Sindh and Souther Punjab...
If IK is revolutionary, if he really feels the pain of common man, if he really wants to help to them out, if really want them to have justice, then why not ay movement, any Dharna for that cause in last 14 years???
Why it is easy to give Sit-ins to the cause which is in-line with the strategy of Security establishment? Why it is not easy to give in calls for the right reasons??? masses would follow him... just like they followed Chief Justice of Pakistan and threw the Dictator away...
People of Pakistan are striving for justice in every department.. and no body including IK gives a $hit about it but every one including IK consider it a must to speak about it... no works on ground...
Yes i agree it would require great amount of time, it would require great struggle but that is what revolution is all about, you sacrifice, you struggle, you give your life-style (if you have to) and then the results can be seen the ground... there are plenty in our political arena (and that includes IK as well) who cries on the misery of the poor while having an English Tea in an airconditioned room or some hill station or during summer trip to US/Europe....
The revolution have its own set of demands... which the so-called revolutionary party have seem to ignore and have opted for the Short-Cuts....
Re: Another Monster in Making?
If the sharif's have provided good governance in Punjab they shouldn't be scared of a failed politician, if not then that's another issue. If pmln is a national party it should be popular in all four provinces but I don't see any foot print of pmln outside Punjab, and now central Punjab and believe me imran khan has got nothing to do with that.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
i have to say, well made points Hanibal. Makes me optimistic that there may be more people who were initially attracted to PTI for the right reasons, who may see through the charm and realise the problems you've pointed out.
Minor quibble, as others have pointed out.. the word 'monster' is a bit unfair. While he does sometimes take unfortunate stances with respect to violent groups, its hard to fairly say that he would ever adopt it himself.
Re: Another Monster in Making?
If the sharif's have provided good governance in Punjab they shouldn't be scared of a failed politician, if not then that's another issue. If pmln is a national party it should be popular in all four provinces but I don't see any foot print of pmln outside Punjab, and now central Punjab and believe me imran khan has got nothing to do with that.
No Matter what i say you won't hear it... and go back to sharifs, what they have to do with IK?
It is just like talking to a brainwashed SSP/MQMor Taliban guy... you talk to them, you try to have logical or sensible discussion with them and what you get is, "MQM is like this because in 60s gohar ayoub did that" or "Shias are wajib-ul-Qatal" or "All Pakistanies should be killed" last one is from Taliban and ow we are with PTI, no matter what the topic is, no matter if it is related to their ow party policy and their team. "Sharifs did took our MAJH away" is all they can come up with...
It is my personal experience, the moment you try to disagree to the Imran's decision doesn't matter if it is as stupid as to give SIT -IN in Ramadan and That is in August, they will start calling you traitors...What to a guy i used to tell that PTI sucks... differece of opinion is not the strong suit of PTI... and this is what turns any political party into Mafia....
Re: Another Monster in Making?
^^ Genius, who called IK/PTI a "monster" (even their worst critic NFP links them more with mystic sufis than this label), fails to understand that politics is all about alternates. When one alternate fails, as has been the case with Sharifs in Punjab, the rational approach is try the next available choice.
Besides ignoring this basic principal of democracy, the ability to choose between alternates and not to opt and re-opt for a failed choice (as a madman would do), he additionally does not get that a social-activist/emerging politician with barely any presence in the parliament cannot provide government-level "justice" to people. He has, in his personal capacity, chosen to contribute to their welfare by building 3 cancer hospitals in 3 major cities, a world-standard univ in an underdeveloped area. This is common knowledge, but I am choosing to state the obvious because the point is consistently lost on this person, who favors a party that has abetted the PPP in their wrong doings, which legitimized the criminal-immunity deal they made with Musharraf, and who after 20 years, like a West Virginia hillbilly, came up with a "yellow cab" scheme 2.0 to solve the problem of urban unemployment.
The guy is utterly brainwashed yet uses the most irrational line of argument. Happy times with siree payee and bhang, my friend!
Re: Another Monster in Making?
Bad news for jiyalas: Those who who have memories of the greatest leader that mankind ever saw, Bhutto, are a dying segment of your vote bank, quite literally. The youth or young adults as is now common knowledge is 70-75% of your vote bank now. They don't know Bhutto, but they do know what great deeds BB and now Zardari have done.
At best, the future of PPP lies in being a rural-Sindhi party. And that too has a big question mark hanging over it.