And how can they call themselves Muslims

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61

Faisal...I take ur advise and remove my post. I am going to open a new thread and I hope everyone will stick to the topic there.

Thanks.

62

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Now, you can go back to discussing taraweeh or whatever you want to spend time on.

Biased! Sheesh.
[/QUOTE]

Biased... How Ironic.... Look whozz talking

Why don't tell me what part of my post was senseless... and i can try to clear things up for you so we can be on the same page....

If you accuse me... I am sure you must have reasons for it rite?
Or may be you can clear up these ironies and it would clear things up.

Why was i told to stick to the topic in one of the earlier posts for answering off the topic question raised by someone else?

63

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Since Insaniyat obviously has trouble understanding simple ideas, so let me spell it out for all of you.

This thread seems to be to discuss the tragic events of sectarian violence. Please make sure your replies relate to that topic. If you wish to debate authenticity of some website, or want to debate historical personalities, start a new thread. Yes, all these issues are broadly inter-related, but so is probably everything. If we keep the discussion focussed, it will be more beneficial and learning. Share your opinions, yes. Spread bitterness, no.

Thanks.

[/QUOTE]

And i guess you believe i was the one who started all this debate..... Open your eyes man.. it was arrmughal who ruled the site that talks about secreterial violence non muslim.... based on some lame argument... and I dont have a right to justify myself.... Don't be biased man....

If someone has a right to accuse ... I believe i should have an equal right to justify myself....
[/QUOTE]

Read it yourself.... Before i was accused for answering question that was raised off the topic...

Later Babu Bihari again raised questions that were off the topic... but no you dont have a problem with that... then look what caught your eye when the discussion of taraweeh was brought up...

Now what do you call that Faisal rather then being Biased??????

64

Aqalmand insaan.. Read this. This is what I had posted

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Faisal: *
And, therefore, I suggest **all of you **stick to the topic under discussion.
[/QUOTE]
But no, you had to assume, that I am asking **you* to stick to the topic. This is what I call "senseless".

And if you have no intention on discussing whatever you are discussing here, sectarian violence, taraweeh, whatever... I'd rather you stop wasting everyone's time here. If you have anything else to say to me, use PM.

65

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Aqalmand insaan.. Read this. This is what I had posted

But no, you had to assume, that I am asking you to stick to the topic. This is what I call "senseless".

And if you have no intention on discussing whatever you are discussing here, sectarian violence, taraweeh, whatever... I'd rather you stop wasting everyone's time here. If you have anything else to say to me, use PM.
[/QUOTE]

Oh and thats why the whole later post was referred to me????/
Give me a break....

66

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Aqalmand insaan..
[/QUOTE]

Aren't you the one who stopped us from calling the names when i called smooth guy Aqaal keh Dushman????

67

This thread is bull****..

MODS atleast you can shut down this thread, and get these people out of here, who are doing nothing good to ISLAM..

yet every one is proud MUSLIM...

any website on internet, MUST NOT resemble the IDEAS and views of The Community to which it is referring to..

I find you people arguing very silly indeed..

ppl that is all...

68

I called you “aqalmand insaan”. Since u took offence, so seems I was wrong. Good. You cleared one thing up, finally. :k:

69

HA HA HA VERY FUNNY

dude i wasnt born yesterday… I know what sarcasm is?

70

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Ok.. it seems, despite my asking three times, Mr Insaniyat is no longer interested in continuing any worthwhile discussion here on the topic.

To save everyone's time, this thread will be closed in a few hours. If anyone wants to add their closing comments, please do so. Irrelevant comments will be DELETED.
[/QUOTE]

may be next time you probably stick to your own words and stop calling people names....

I was open for serious discussions and learn from it ... but i guess no one actually replied my question

I wanted to know how many rakats were there in taraweeh when Prophet Mohammad might have introduced it?

I also wanted to know this definition of Bidat Bihari Babu introduced about following the companions of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. when Abu Bakr himself claims he was overwhelmed by a devil...
what does all that imply... are all companions worth being of being followed.....

I am still willing to carry on a discussion if any one wants to answer my question?

and ofcourse if you stick to your own words before advicing others Mr. Faisal.

71

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *

I also wanted to know this definition of Bidat Bihari Babu introduced about following the companions of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. when Abu Bakr himself claims he was overwhelmed by a devil...
what does all that imply... are all companions worth being of being followed.....

l.
[/QUOTE]

thats our belief..............in our opinion no one in masoom except nabi.......

by the way it was u who asked for the quran refrences .......i just asked u to answer them in a separate thread.........

u havent answered my questions regarding quran in that thread....
salam

72

Might be BULLish but topic certainly inspired.

To me? Good to hear arguments of faith.

Good to hear disagreements.

Good Learning.

73

without simple mutual respect, and a sincere will to learn discuss, understand, and debate... all such threads would keep going on senseless tangents, holier than thou assumptions and disparaging statements about people of other sects and other faith, flame baits to halt sensible discussion, etc will go on.

I hope people do not debate/interact in real life as they do here, but i guess they do, thus the inter-sect, inter-faith tensions :)

challo..kya karain..no one here is a kid that needs to be told how to carry on conversations..I guess we just choose to get into clashes and creating clashes rather than being sensible.

another good discussion bites the dust due to lameness on the part of a few.

74

QUOTE]*Originally posted by bao bihari: *

thats our belief..............in our opinion no one in masoom except nabi.......

by the way it was u who asked for the quran refrences .......i just asked u to answer them in a separate thread.........

u havent answered my questions regarding quran in that thread....
salam
[/QUOTE]

So bihari Babu you yourself admit that the companions of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. are not masooom.... So are you trying to say.. Prophet asked us to follow some non masoom companions.

Read this ayat of Quran

"When they meet those who believe, they say: We Believe;' but
when they are alone with their evil ones, they say:We are really
with you, we (were) only jesting [2:14]."

This ayat mean not every one was true muslim.... now lets see this hadeeth i posted earlier which you probably over looked

This is what Abu Bakr (The first Caliph) has to say about himself

Ibn Sa`d in his al-Tabaqat (Leiden, 1322), iii, part 1, p.129 reports that in a sermon that Abu Bakr delivered after taking charge of the caliphate, he declared, "I am only a man, and I am not better than any of you. So obey me when I go straight and correct me when you see me deviate. You should know that (at times) I am overwhelmed by a devil, so when you see me in a state of rage keep away from me." Similar statements by him have been reported by:

al-Tabari in his Ta'rikh (Cairo, 1357), ii, 440;
Ibn Qutaybah in al-'Imamah wa al-siyasah (Matbaat al-Futuh al-'Adabiyyah, 1331), 6;
al-Haythami in Majma al-zawa'id (1352), v, 183;
al_Muttaqi in Kanz al-`ummal (Hyderabad, 1312), ii, 136;

and others.

Even a companion like Abu Bakr doesnt cliam himself to be so pious enough. Then how can following such companions is not bidat.

You want me to believe just being a companion of Prophet Mohammad makes you pious or worthy enough to be followed... eva heard of the incident of Prophet Loot and his Azhab and how his wife(life companion) disobeyed?

Dude tell me where does Prophet asked us to follow his companions????
Where does this definition of bidat come from?

About Quran man i have answered you several times. I am nto a scholar thats why i dont have all the references you gave me.. but as far as your claim is concerned its weak because it contradicts Quran... I have mentioned it in this forum and also in the other one.. infact not me but a lot of gupshup pals have answered it... infact Pakistani Abroad raised a question for you... which is left unanswered .. somehting new for me too ... may be you can enlighten us all with you knowledge

75

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *
QUOTE]*Originally posted by bao bihari: *

thats our belief..............in our opinion no one in masoom except nabi.......

by the way it was u who asked for the quran refrences .......i just asked u to answer them in a separate thread.........

u havent answered my questions regarding quran in that thread....
salam
[/QUOTE]

So bihari Babu you yourself admit that the companions of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. are not masooom.... So are you trying to say.. Prophet asked us to follow some non masoom companions.

Read this ayat of Quran

"When they meet those who believe, they say: We Believe;' but
when they are alone with their evil ones, they say:We are really
with you, we (were) only jesting [2:14]."

This ayat mean not every one was true muslim.... now lets see this hadeeth i posted earlier which you probably over looked

This is what Abu Bakr (The first Caliph) has to say about himself

Ibn Sa`d in his al-Tabaqat (Leiden, 1322), iii, part 1, p.129 reports that in a sermon that Abu Bakr delivered after taking charge of the caliphate, he declared, "I am only a man, and I am not better than any of you. So obey me when I go straight and correct me when you see me deviate. You should know that (at times) I am overwhelmed by a devil, so when you see me in a state of rage keep away from me." Similar statements by him have been reported by:

al-Tabari in his Ta'rikh (Cairo, 1357), ii, 440;
Ibn Qutaybah in al-'Imamah wa al-siyasah (Matbaat al-Futuh al-'Adabiyyah, 1331), 6;
al-Haythami in Majma al-zawa'id (1352), v, 183;
al_Muttaqi in Kanz al-`ummal (Hyderabad, 1312), ii, 136;

and others.

Even a companion like Abu Bakr doesnt cliam himself to be so pious enough. Then how can following such companions is not bidat.

You want me to believe just being a companion of Prophet Mohammad makes you pious or worthy enough to be followed... eva heard of the incident of Prophet Loot and his Azhab and how his wife(life companion) disobeyed?

Dude tell me where does Prophet asked us to follow his companions????
Where does this definition of bidat come from?

About Quran man i have answered you several times. I am nto a scholar thats why i dont have all the references you gave me.. but as far as your claim is concerned its weak because it contradicts Quran... I have mentioned it in this forum and also in the other one.. infact not me but a lot of gupshup pals have answered it... infact Pakistani Abroad raised a question for you... which is left unanswered .. somehting new for me too ... may be you can enlighten us all with you knowledge
[/QUOTE]

salam
okz as far as quran goes we both agree no same thing.........as far as ur books goes it contradicts ur belive ..thats what i was trying to understand.the differance b/w ur books and general shia believ.....
2---
bhai paki abroad ka sawal zara dohra dayna...
3---
bhai i was saying sahbah are not masoom ...we do not follow only one particular sahbai ....insted we follow on which ijma of sahabah is.....
may be ucan undersatnd the difference....use ur grey cells
wamal ina illal blagh

76

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *
......
Even a companion like Abu Bakr doesnt cliam himself to be so pious enough. Then how can following such companions is not bidat.

You want me to believe just being a companion of Prophet Mohammad makes you pious or worthy enough to be followed....
[/QUOTE]

So a person being "humble" (aajiz, inkisaar) about himself and you say "he is admitting he is not pious". If he were to say "I am pious", you would have claimed self-boasting, self-claimed righteous.

There is no ending to where you are heading Insaniyat. You will always think that Sunnis are wrong, while Sunnis will always think you are wrong. Scholars have spent years, decades, centuries debating who is right and wrong, why not let Allah swt decide it on day of Judgement. After all, its Allah swt's decision who is right/wrong. We will be judged for our decisions for ourselves.

77

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *

2---
bhai paki abroad ka sawal zara dohra dayna...
3---
bhai i was saying sahbah are not masoom ...we do not follow only one particular sahbai ....insted we follow on which ijma of sahabah is.....
may be ucan undersatnd the difference....use ur grey cells
wamal ina illal blagh
[/QUOTE]

Dude go and look for its the only thing PA posted in the forum...
and by the way i didnt understand what were u talking about in regards to following sahabah can you please clarify a little bit???

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
So a person being "humble" (aajiz, inkisaar) about himself and you say "he is admitting he is not pious". If he were to say "I am pious", you would have claimed self-boasting, self-claimed righteous.

[/QUOTE]

Seems like you have no idea of whats going on.. .What i am trying to imply here is the definition of bidat Bihari Babu gave... I mean if they are normal people and tend to overwhelmed by devil... then howcan following their sunnah is not bidat.. i mean they are not masoom as Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. Even i quoted ayat of Quran.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
thats our belief..............in our opinion no one in masoom except nabi.......
[/QUOTE]

can you tell me what does this ayat of Quran means brother

033.033

And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

78

salam

only point i was making is that sahbah do only what is sunnah.....they were better judge of what nabi s.a.w did on certain occasions.....so if they agree on some thing that means it was the sunnah of nabi s.a.w.....we believe sahbah were not caword that they performed TAQIYAAH if someone is introducing a bidah.....thats why hadrat abubakr r.a. said that if some one gave a rope in zakat in nabi s.a.w time he ll have to give that also.........that was what all sahbah including ahlebait did all thier life ...they fought what they considerd as wrong interpretation of islam.......thats why hadrat hussain r.a attained shahdah in karbla....rather then performing taqiyaah ....which shia consider his father hadrat ali .ra did for 27 yrs..
i think we should end our discussion here as it is again heading towards nowhere...........
salam

79

**Originally posted by Insaniyat: *
....Seems like you have no idea of whats going on.. .What i am trying to imply here is the definition of bidat Bihari Babu gave... I mean if they are normal people and tend to overwhelmed by devil... then howcan following their sunnah is not bidat.. i mean they are not masoom as Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. Even i quoted ayat of Quran.*

Seems like you have all the idea about religion. Yes, we believe that a normal human being can become a victim of devil, a nabi/rasool can not. If you don't want to follow "sunnah" of companion, you are still okay, its not "fard" to follow them, you can make your decisions based on their actions. Also, Hazrat Umer RA didn't invent taraweeh, he organized it on regular basis.

**can you tell me what does this ayat of Quran means brother

033.033
And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.
---------------------------------------- **

Allah swt telling Family of Prophet PBUH that He wishes to make them pure and spotless by them not following traits of Times of Ignorance, regular Prayer, regular Charity, obey Allah swt and His Messenger.

80

I cannot argue with your words. Mostly I can't understand them because I am unable to speak your language.

but a thing I go on, gets me moving, a secret.

If you hear a bird sing.

You will know that God is everywhere.