here is the interview of baloch legend leader sardar attaullah khan mengal
Q :Thank you for agreeing to this first e-interview with Baloch2000 web site and Balochi Zend magazine. Before I pose any question, let me say that although your views are well known, please tell us your views on current affairs concerning firstly Pakistan and Balochistan. Secondly your views on Iranian (western) Balochistan. Thirdly on current International affairs?
**A:**Before anything else let me tell you about our Iranian Baloch brothers and sisters. As far as I am concerned all Baloch are the same in my eyes - whether they are ruled by Iran, or by Pakistan or anywhere else. Nobody has a right to make distinction among Baloch or separate other Baloch as someone different. There is no doubt that due to our inability and weaknesses we have not been able to unite all Baloch in a single Baloch country so that the Baloch could be their own masters. Our motherland is one , we are equally kept backward and disintegrated. If some Baloch have prospered on their own personal hard work & efforts and if only a few Baloch have been rewarded for their collaboration with the agencies to crush their fellow men, that does not prove that Baloch have received their rights. All Baloch are of the same flesh and blood. We all have the same demand. We all have suffered oppression. In my opinion all Baloch are the same and we make no distinction as such. This geographical line of separation which exists was created by outside powers and we had no choice in it. I pray to God that one day these lines will disappear and we all unite as one nation and prosper. So in my mind, I see no difference between the Baloch of various countries.
The issue regarding Balochistan / Pakistan must be seen within the context of international affairs. We cannot reach a proper conclusion if we analyze the issue in isolation. Balochistan has become the victim of it’s own geopolitical situation and importance. Because the United States and the newly freed Central Asian countries want to transfer their raw materials specially oil and gas via Balochistan and Gwadar. USA has little influence in Iran and is unlikely to gain influence in the near future. The best country is Pakistan, because those who rule Pakistan do not belong to that land. They are indeed temporary caretakers. The land belongs to Baloch, Sindi and Afghans (pashtoons) and on the other side the land-locked Punjab is of no use to any one. It is unfortunate for us that the proposed Pipeline and exit port is going to be Gawadar which is in Balochistan. What America is doing such as fighting against Al-Qaida, bombing Afghanistan and so forth are mere pretext and false
The main purpose is to secure a passage for the Pipeline via Balochistan. USA invaded another independent country and bombed it because of the Pipeline. Hence, it will not recognize Baloch and Balochistan as a political weight to be reckoned with, until and unless the Baloch show that they are indeed a major player and a political weight. We should show that when it concerns Balochistan, the dealing must be directly with the Baloch. Nobody should be allowed to deal on our behalf. If Baloch can show that they carry such a political weight, I am sure the US will deal with them directly rather than dealing with Punjabis
We have no objection to the Pipeline. My objection is that the Pipeline goes through Balochistan and negotiations are done with Punjabis. Let the Baloch have their own land then negotiate with Baloch on the Pipeline. As a Baloch, I have no objection, because I cannot stop USA. We object to Punjabi plans on Gwadar. They want to build a large port first, which will turn into an important trading centre. All the industries that are developing are owned by Punjabis. Punjabis have purchased most of the land. All kinds of workers and people from Punjab will pour into Balochistan. Hundreds of thousands of them will come to Gwadar area. Once they settle in Balochistan, they will become citizens of the state of Balochistan as they are Pakistanis by law. They will eventually outnumber the Baloch in Balochistan. The Baloch will turn into a minority in their own land, that is my fear. If that day arrives, then Baloch must give up their identity. Today Baloch exists because Balochistan exists! However tomorrow the majority will decide if Balochistan should be part of Punjab or change it’s name to something else or what ever. The majority can decide. Then Baloch Name and identity will disappear
You have touched on my next question which is : You have a dream of Balochistan, but now the population of Balochistan is changing, and one day the Baloch may become a minority, how the dream can be achieved if majority of people in Balochistan will not share such an aspiration through democratic means? How are you going to solve this problem?
A: If the indigenous population is turned into a minority, that would be the end of Balochistan as a country. So you have to strike when the iron is hot. The time is running out very fast. Unfortunately the time is running so fast that you must make hay whilst sunshine. If you can not mobilize the Baloch to enter the struggle then ! Moreover Pakistan is not in a position to chase every single Baloch in mountains and deserts. But if we can mobilize our forces and let the world know. If the US hears of our struggle and determination, I am sure they will negotiate with us rather than with Pakistan. Parliamentary politics and approach cannot provide a solution to this problem. Every Baloch must arm themselves with sticks, axe, arms and enter the fight. Less than this you can not make Punjabis listen. [size=2]The history has shown that when there is a new place of abundance, Punjabis would come just like ants. So far that Balochistan has been saved from Punjabi influx, because of its under-developed status. There was no road, no electricity, no market and no facilities. Now that they are going to build all these facilities in Gwadar, the road from Punjab via khozadar to Gwadar will be filled with Punjabis heading towards Balochistan. Before such an influx we must act. We must stand against this.
**Q:**Am I right to understand the solution you are putting forward is some kind of Baloch uprising?
A: I would call it an armed struggle.
**Q:**Are you actually asking for an armed struggle rather than a civilian disobedience?
A: Armed struggle - Yes ! because I am afraid the Punjabis will not understand the language of sense so you have to teach him with a language they understands.
**Q:**We have to understand the reality of today. The USA government is behind the Pakistani government for obvious reasons, the Baloch uprising particularly an armed uprising that you have experienced in the past can only result for another defeat for Baloch, don’t you think so?
**A:**Not at all ! because we are not fighting the Americans. We are fighting Punjabis because it is not their right to negotiate with American. It is our right to negotiate with American. We don’t deny negotiating with American, we don’t say “no” to Americans, but we say it is our right to negotiate with American on matters concerning Balochistan. So we have to tell American directly or indirectly.We must choose a language that Punjabis understand. Americans are not that fools, no matter how stupid Mr. Bush may appear, there are other Americans who understand. America would hate to fight in two fronts. Americans are busy in Afghanistan, they will be busy for sometimes. Americans will be happy to deal with a small party instead of dealing with whole of Pakistan. Because if they deal with Pakistan, they have to feed the whole 70 million Punjabis.
Q: No Baloch may disagree with your ideals and aspirations, but one has to be realistic within the prevailing reality, therefore one must be practical and improve the lives of Baloch people step by step. If the goal of free Balochistan or “Greater Balochistan” cannot be achieved, because it has been tested and has not been achieved, some people believe there are other routes such as parliamentary .. Are you prepared to consider other alternatives ..?
A: I will come to that. I don’t say you declare your independence. Even within the boundaries of Pakistan if you are given equal right - that’s more than enough for us.
Q: Equal rights on what basis?
A: In every respects. All the economic rights, all the political rights.
**Q: **But a Punjabi may object and say that according to what kind of democracy 10 millions Baloch can have equal right with 100 millions Punjabis?
**A: **Let Punjabi have the same right. Whatever Punjab produces should belong to Punjab and Baloch have no rights to that. Whatever the expenditure of Punjab is, the bill should be footed by Punjab. Equally, Whatever is produced in Balochistan, must belong to the government of Balochistan and should be spent in Balochistan. All the taxation and financial power must go to the government of Balochistan. Equal representation should be given to all to make laws. We do not ask for the revenue of Punjab.
Q: A Punjabi may ask: how can we have equal representation if you are 10 millions and we are 100 millions?
A: Equal representation in one respect only. We don’t say give us a membership share in the Army equal to that of Punjab.
Q: But you are talking about the Parliament which makes law and is the most important institution.?
A: Yes in Parliament, when it comes to decision taking, not only about financial powers but even in judiciary. Balochistan will have it’s own judiciary and taxation power. What ever is produced in Balochistan belongs to Balochistan. What right the Punjabis have to take it and spend it for themselves. I don’t think there is any justification even under international law. In a country like Pakistan where one nationality is in majority against three other nationalities put together, there cannot be a federal system. This is farce. This can only be a unitary system. I do not accept this unitary system. If it is a federation, then let it be federation in real sense. Let me tell you about Bengal (Bangladesh) which was in majority against the whole of West Pakistan. However, Punjab introduced a parity formula over there. Punjab forced them over parity to secure their own rights. Why should I accept Punjabis who have had a very bad history. I have every right to tell Punjab that something is not good for the goose, it should not be good for the gander. If Punjab was not prepared to accept even the 10% majority by Bengal, why should I accept Punjab’s 100% majority?
Q: Let me go back to one issue you mentioned earlier regarding the Pipeline and Al-Qaida. You said that all these issues with Al-Qaida and so forth were pretext and the main purpose is to get the Pipeline via Afghanistan and Balochistan. Let me dissect it in to pieces. Do you agree that Al-Qaida was a terrorist force operating from Afghanistan, and that they did commit terrorist acts. So rightly or wrongly, USA had the “pretext” to take action, or do you think the whole thing was a farce?
A: No it was not Farce ! But it did not warrant such a reaction. The Twin Tower disaster was not totally based on issue of Afghanistan, it was a reaction against the pro-Israeli American behaviour !
Q: Do you think they had over reacted.?
**A: **They had over-reacted! Because they were already making preparation to hit here. When they got this pretext whoever so did this, I am not saying Al-Qaida was not involved here, some of them might have been involved in this disaster, but the basic thing which made America to react against Afghanistan was the Pipeline even today they continue the bombardment even on their Pakistani friends at the border.
Q: Is the construction of the Pipeline through Balochistan and Gwadar beneficial to the Baloch people?.
**A:**I am not saying it should not come through Balochistan. Let it come via Balochistan. But when I say Balochistan, I mean a Balochistan that belongs to Baloch and not to Punjabis. Poison is poison whether it taste sweet or bitter; the effect would be the same. If the effect of the Pipeline is that Punjabis come to Balochistan and overpopulate the area? What would be left for me there? So we lose the whole country (Balochistan). It is the after effect of the Pipeline I fear. If we have the power we can decide who comes here and on what basis. Today the Land in Gwadar is distributed not even by the provincial government - though I believe local bodies should have such powers. However, leave the local bodies aside, even the provincial government has no say in a local matter. Central
government directly deals with the lands in Gwadar. They allocate the land and the provincial government has no say. If this is the beginning, you can imagine what the end would be!
**Q: **The Baloch do not have enough power to influence events internationally or even in their own respective countries. Don’t you think that all Baloch should sit together and formulate a strategy to combat the grave fate Baloch are facing?
A: Yes, Now, I must, first of all, admit a failure on my personal part not to have been able to cut through the ice on this matter, though I have been warning about it. This is the responsibility of the new generation. It is our history which is at stake, but it is also their future too which is at stake. So it is their job to do something. They must act. It may be needed that a student must end his study. If he has to give up his study , I won’t mind. There is no need for him to go and turn into a clerk and feed his own children; if he can sacrifice a few drops of his blood to save Balochistan - that is far preferable to going and earning a few pennies from Punjabi and be Punjabi’s servant. So it is the young generation’s duty to understand this. It is the duty of the educated Baloch to understand this. If an educated person says no! I cannot understand this threat, then he is a dishonest man. He does understand it and Balochistan demands from him to come to the field and help. If he stands up today, if he takes into account the situation and make the right choice, then the situation would not be difficult. If a few educated people put their heads together, the ordinary people will follow them.
Your enemy is not America. The US is concerned with her own benefits. If the US can get that from Balochistan, why should she object to that. Will she say no ! no! I must have it from Punjabis? They know who’s land is this, but we (Baloch) have to prove our
weight.
Q: Let me go back to what you said which might create confusion, you mentioned about the student or teacher that they should drop their pen or job and join in the struggle. One of the criticism levelled against Baloch leader most of whom are tribal leaders, Sardars and Nawabs is that they discourage education and discourage individuals to improve his or her own lot?
A: We are used to such allegations, so much that more or less we are addicted to it ! The problem is the word development has been misinterpreted here. If development means getting water and electricity at the cost of losing one’s national identity, and at the cost of losing Balochistan, I don’t call it a development. I call it a disaster. That is where some of us object to this. But how many Sardars are there objecting to this? Suppose Kheyrbakksh and I were not there , suppose we were not born, take two of us out, what would have happened? Do you think the Punjabi would have stopped coming here? Punjabis’ design would have been the same.
Look at the gas situation. It comes from Balochistan, but Balochistan is not getting the benefit of it. the rest of Pakistan was getting it, but they told us because Balochistan is at a geographical height, it cannot be supplied with its own gas. They keep telling us shut up. But in 1985 when Balochistan cantonment was converted into a Core headquarter in Quetta and they needed the gas, the height of Quetta suddenly went down, and Quetta received gas. Was that a development? My wealth underground goes to others - I call it disaster. 50 or 100 Baloch may get jobs, but we can’t sacrifice whole of Balochistan just because some Baloch are getting jobs and benefits too.
**Q:**Balochistan has one of the lowest literacy rate in Pakistan and may be in the world. You mentioned about your desire regarding students, teachers and others - you made you choice clear. It is my understanding that at the end of the day you blame all the ills on Punjabis. Do you not think that the Baloch should look inside and analyze their approach and find a strategy which is effective and cannot be used by the opponents of the Baloch.
A: Let me tell you one thing, we are running late, time is of essence. Time is running so fast, we have hardly any time to think and look for an evolutionary process. We have to straight away jump in to a revolutionary process, then we might catch up with the time. As far as the development is concerned. I will not call it a development. Mr. Marri will not call it a development which is being done. However, I have not stopped any school, I have given free lands to schools wherever they wanted it. I have not stopped roads. When I became Sardar in 1954 it took me 3 nights to reach my village from Bela by camel. In 1955 I built a “kacha” road in my area. When I became Sardar there was only one shop in my area now there are more than 200 shops in big bazaar and market in my village, that I have encouraged to create. I personally offered land and encouraged the people in my area to build these shops and the market in an organised way. I have given my land for schools and hospitals. I have not given land for army or police use. I have opposed that. The Army and Police took my land by force while I was in jail. I never stand on the way of development. It is just a piece of “bull****” they are talking we stopped it. In Kheyrbakhsh area the dispute was not about anything else but all about taking the oil. Kheyrbakhsh opposed that. I also opposed the same in my area. I said I can only accept it if the revenue goes to the provincial government.
Q: Recently it has been suggested that the power in Balochistan should be shared between Pashtoons and Baloch, in 30 years time the Pashtoon might be in a majority and want it all? What do you think of this situation?
A: Both of them are beating a dead horse because power does not lie with any of them but with Punjab. Let them settle their issue with Punjab first. Pashtoons want their own province.
Q: I can see that Pashtoon want the same rights in NWFP, but I am talking about Pashtoon living in Balochistan who might become a majority and accordingly take over.
**A: **Well if Punjabi can come and settle down, who can stop the Pashtoons, because the authority lies with Punjabis
Q: But don’t you see the threat?
A: I don’t see anything from Pashtoons because Pashtoon are settled in their own lands. The only disputed area is Quetta. I can not , on the behest of Punjab, or on the instigation of Punjab, take on the Pashtoons. Punjab is trying to make Baloch and Pashtoons fight one another.
Q: BNP ! You mentioned the situation is grave, and majority of Baloch agree with you, but what is the best policy? What is BNP’s policy in this regard.?
A: The best thing or maximum we can do is to bring all nationalists to one platform. But if one pleases himself or deceives himself and say we go to the Assemblies and we would solve the problem there. We don’t say, do not go to the Assemblies, let them go there ! But that should not be the only front we should fight it out. Basic front will be they have to fight them on the streets. If they don’t have arms, they don’t have to take up arms. All they need to block the roads to delay the entry of Punjabis in to Balochistan
Q: Do you think having it both ways would work? In one hand parliamentary route on the other hand illegal resistance. Is it really workable?
A: Yes it is if one handles it tactfully
Q: Give me an example of such a tactic any where in the world.
A: Don’t go far away. Ireland is in front of you.
Q: But one condition in Ireland was they ( IRA & Republicans) should surrender arms and follow the peaceful route only.
**A: **What is behind the surrender ? something which has taken place behind the scene and is not public.
Q: Ireland and Balochistan are thousands of miles away in every sense?
A: Yes but Punjabis are not so tactful altogether as compared to the British. British have ruled the world, Punjabis are not that. When you compare Baloch to Irish, you should also compare Punjabis to British too.
Q: What about Pakistan Oppressed Nations Movement.
A: Yes ! this movement can be the bases of what I said, both in political front as well as in other front. Punjabis will force PONM to allow for the creation an armed wing and fight out Punjabis on the street.
Q: You have stuck to your guns for the last 40 years, it has not worked. Some people follow other routes such as parliamentary engagement. You are in isolation while many Baloch choose the path of engagement which you believe is not going to work - how do you feel about that?
A: Well ! as far as your analysis is concerned, it might be that the majority wish to get involved in wishful thinking than to accept the reality of day to day , but one thing I am sure, and that is Punjab is bound to kick such “wishful thinkers” back in to our rank and file.
Q: Why should Punjab do such a thing?
**A: **Because Punjab wants to have all the golden eggs in one day. As it happened with Bengal they will kill the goose in order to get all the golden eggs in one day.
**Q: **Are there any democratically minded people or group in Punjab who may share your pain and views?
A: Punjab has a huge population, so I can not say there are not any. There must be some But they must make such an effort and show it to us. I am rather pessimistic about that.
Q: When you talk about Punjab, are you talking about the Military, the establishment .?
A: Establishment comes at the top. Even the common man either deliberately on unconsciously has a hand in all this game
**Q:**You see! it becomes very difficult because you point the finger at the common man who is not involved?
A: The ordinary man may not be involved consciously, but look at an ordinary soldier. This soldier does not come from the click of any landlord or any bureaucrats . He does not belong to the ruling clan, but he is the man who is handed the gun to go and kill Baloch. If such a soldier commits a sin, then he is involved too.
**Q:**Why do you blame a common Punjabi?
A:Let me give you an example of Nawaz Sharif. The ordinary man in Punjab uses his vote to bring him to the post of prime minister. If anything goes wrong in Punjab the responsibility lies on the prime minister and the people in Punjab would rise in streets and would kick him out of the job. Similarly if something goes wrong in Sind and Balochistan the responsibility lies on the prime minister but unfortunately the common Punjabi would not come out in the street of Punjab to condemn the heinous crimes committed against the people of Sind and Balochistan. I have been in politics for a long time. I have tried not to blame the whole of Punjab but I have not seen much improvement in the people of Punjab. At least in two occasions, once in Ayub Khan’s era and once in Bhutto’s rule military operation went on for years and years in Balochistan. I did not see a single man coming up on the streets of Punjab saying why this tragedy is taking place?
Q: The Same situation exists in Western Balochistan. The government brings in to Balochistan people from other parts of Iran. The situation is doubly worse as it is not only the Baloch versus the Persians but also because of religions i.e. Shiites versus Sunnis. Do you think the approach in Western Balochistan should be same as in Eastern Balochistan?
**A:**It should be because otherwise there is no other remedy out of this.
Q: Other Iranians may claim the present regime has killed many Persian Shiites and tortured more of then than Baloch. They can see and feel the pain of the Baloch but claim that everybody has a common enemy which is the Mullahs Establishment.
A: Who says this?
Q: The decent Iranian. Don’t you think there are not any decent Punjabis?
A: Why should Baloch face the music when Baloch is treated as a third class citizen in his own land? Baloch have not been given their basic fundamental rights in Iran. Balochistan has been occupied by the Persians
**Q:**What is the best way forward? What is the right way to struggle, or to get out of it?
A: Unfortunately we are in different ages. Western Balochistan is under a very tyrant regime. No doubt we are a colony of Punjab but slightly some level of gratitude is allowed to us. As with the people in Western Balochistan no gratitude is allowed under the strong power of Shah and the present regime of Mullahs. With my little knowledge of Western Balochistan, nationalism is spilt in tribal fractions. In Eastern Balochistan tribalism is coming to its dead end. It is more or less perishing, and from that very ashes of tribal system the Baloch nationalism will emerge. People in Western Balochistan should be able to make something out of ashes of tribal system. However tribalism is somehow stronger in western Balochistan.
Q: Do you really think the tribal system is much stronger in Western Balochistan than in Eastern Balochistan?
A: People in western Balochistan believe in it much more. In eastern Makran you no longer see tribal system although families exist.
Q: The Kurd are struggling for their rights and they showed the government they are very powerful, and they had Kurdistan for themselves but the Iranian army crashed them. Baloch are less powerful and the Iranian army would crush them too.
A: How could you expect a colonial power to give up its colonial interest for just a few sweet words while you have chosen to be a decent beggar to concede all your fundamental rights.
**Q: **You use the word very elegantly but let me ask you if for example the Scots or the Welsh are decent beggars to the English?
A: They have now realised but the British have handled them for quite sometime diplomatically.
Q: If you can have a decent central government which can represent all the people like the Scottish and Welsh and have some kind of decency like the Scottish, Welsh and English why shouldn’t some Baloch think if they work towards building such a democratic structure then they would be treated decently after all their rights would be safe guarded.
A: I doubt very much if at all that kind of sense will prevail in our part of the world. Because the English people know how to keep the balance they know how to deal with the matters tactfully. They have given up territories wherever they thought they can no longer rule . They have an history of doing that. Unfortunately in our part of the world there is no such history. You either fight me or I’ll kill you, either you defeat me or I’ll defeat you.
Q: What do you think about the creation of a Balochistan United Front which the Iranian Baloch are trying to form and along with other Iranians bring about democracy in Iran and achieve their own national rights.
A:I can only wish them well, I do not suggest that they should be rejectionist. but I say it would be unprecedented if they end up with some positive results.
Q So you think the Persian would never concede any national rights to Baloch.
A: Until and unless the Baloch in Iran make it obvious to the Persians that either they are given their rights or the Baloch will have the power and the weight to grab their rights, only then they would concede.
Q: Some one who does not appreciate your point of view might say: Sardar sahib! your confrontational and rejectionist approach for the last 40 years has yielded little results. We have not gained independence and freedom, but the situation has become worse. So if an approach has not worked for the last 40 years, why should we keep beating the same drum?
A: If you know of any other approach , I am prepared to listen, I do not see any other alternative.
Q: Can you not think of any other alternative?
A: I do not see any other alternative, the other approach is a disaster. I would love to hear any idea which is convincing and appealing; but I don’t see any. In a struggle like this it may take you centuries.
Q: I want to ask you about another Leader namely Mr. Bizenjo who is known to have been more practical and pragmatic. He could see the reality and not to, strictly speaking, follow his heart’s ambition but prove practical?
A: I can not comment because he was my senior colleague. I would not have been in politics but for his support and encouragement. He is not with us, and it is bad to talk about somebody who is not amongst us any more. However, Mr. Bizenjo was a patient man. Nonetheless Sometimes you could see that he is talking the same language as I have been. He could adjust himself. We can see that even his adjustments never paid any dividends; not that he did any adjustment with ill-will. But let me tell you if it were not for our “so-called” irrational activities, you would not have seen the level of nationalism that exists today which you may call it credit or a discredit. Even this minimum level of nationalism you see in Balochistan is because of our " so-called adventurism" .
How do you want to be remembered?
A: I think I will be very comfortable in my grave if somebody does not blame me for having done anything which was not in the interest of Balochistan.
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