An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

roadrunner very interesting research, I think when you have some time you should write a summary paper , kind of a 'dummy's guide to' so avg folks who dont know much about genes and all would understand what this all is.

This is very interesting though.

[kumar12345]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@roadrunner

Stick to the topic. Sarcasm on this thread is considered as spam, so do not continue in this vain. Only things of educational value should be posted. Btw, I didn't understand what you were trying to say, and if you cannot prove what you're trying to say with some solid references (as I have done), then do not bother.

it was not sarcasm mind it. i think u could not understand
i am very much on the topic mr runner.. what i was saying that how can the common lineage not present between east punjabis and west punjabis.. even tilll this day people from same caste exist in diff religions on both sides. there are muslim and hindu/sikh common castes till this dat like Tiwana... similarly many castes common between bengalis too. so its not correct that there is no dna lineage

[DSPathania]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@kumar12345

it was not sarcasm mind it. i think u could not understand i am very much on the topic mr runner.. what i was saying that how can the common lineage not present between east punjabis and west punjabis.. even tilll this day people from same caste exist in diff religions on both sides. there are muslim and hindu/sikh common castes till this dat like Tiwana... similarly many castes common between bengalis too. so its not correct that there is no dna lineage

*Before advent of Islam, people in present day pakistan were either hindus or buddhists. If they can't accept this fact you don't have to loose your sleep. *

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@kumar12345

it was not sarcasm mind it. i think u could not understand i am very much on the topic mr runner.. what i was saying that how can the common lineage not present between east punjabis and west punjabis.. even tilll this day people from same caste exist in diff religions on both sides. there are muslim and hindu/sikh common castes till this dat like Tiwana... similarly many castes common between bengalis too. so its not correct that there is no dna lineage

Dont think you follow what's being said. NorthWEST Indians aka Indian Punjabis do share SOME similarity with Pakistani Punjabis. But they are still more Dravidianzed than Pakistani Punjabis on average. Whilst Indian Punjabis share some similarity with Pakistani Punjabi, the MAJORITY of India, which is North Central India, NorthEast India, Central India, South India, do not share ANY similarity with any Pakistani ethnic group.

You should also remember the "Pathans" of India are totally dravidianized so that they look more Dravidian in appearance than Pashtun. It's like saying a white guy with one black ancestor is a black guy. Clearly not true.

[DSPathania]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@roadrunner

What does this have to do with the thread?

See this link and it will make you learn that Dravidians never existed in North as most pakistanis keep on claiming!!.

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@DSPathania

*Before advent of Islam, people in present day pakistan were either hindus or buddhists. If they can't accept this fact you don't have to loose your sleep. *

Buddhists yes, Hindus no. Do not confuse Hinduism with Vedism. They are two totally seperate religions, like Judaism and Christianity, or like Christianity and Islam. Pre Islamic Pakistanis practised Buddhism and Vedism. Cows were not sacred to people of the Vedas, and in fact it was the Vedic Aryans (who were Pakistanis) that wrote the Vedas. That is why all the Gods of the Vedas are white, whereas later Gods became dark skinned Dravidians, when some Vedic Aryans moved into the Gangetic plains and created Hinduism (a Medieval form of political correctness most likely).

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@DSPathania

See this link and it will make you learn that Dravidians never existed in North as most pakistanis keep on claiming!!.

Who is most Pakistanis, and what link? The centre of Dravidiana is India, South and central India. The centre of Arya is Pakistan (others claim Iran, I dont buy it), that is why the people of Northwest India are more Paki looking than the Dravidian epicentre. The people of NorthEast India are more East Asian looking but their base is still Dravidian (Assam etc). So Dravidians do exist in North India, but their base is South India.

[vineshvk]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@roadrunner

Right, so you know my data is correct. First point. Second point, Pakistanis, at least Punjabi Pakistanis are related to Indian Punjabis. In general Northwest India only shares some similarity with Pakistan (as far a the Eastern Punjab where the people get progressively less Pakistani looking as you go East through the Punjab). The majorityof India, NorthEast India, Central India, NorthCentral India, all of South India shares no resemblance to Pakistanis. This is the important point. The average Pakistani has completely different genetics to the average Indian, and physically the average Pakistani looks completely different to the average Indian. The maps I have shown confirm this view, as do other studies which I will show soon.

No my dear your papers state a very different picture. What are you arguing here, that indians have no heritance over whats on pakistan. Thats baseless. Indians in numbers would be as strong as pakistan in numbers with respect to aryan ancestry. Yes pakistan has more of the r12a(24%) to indian (15%), but that could be because of the influnce of the arabs. Muslims of India have a higher r12a comparable to pakistanies. Then if you consider who are the aboriginals indians have more indegnious genes then pakistani people have. And if harappan and mohanjadaro are the indegenious civiliasation then that means indians are the rightfull owners of that land. period. The mtdna analysis in your references state that indian stock has common maternal ancestry. They also state that dravidians had occupaid all of india and onslought of aryans decided to move down to south to preserve their culuture and treditions. But there were intermingling and that is why there are traces of dravidians genes in north populace and aryan genes in south.

[kumar12345]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

yes there was intermingling dravidians have diff language but they believe in common gods, cmmon scriptures of aryans

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@Fraudz

roadrunner very interesting research, I think when you have some time you should write a summary paper , kind of a 'dummy's guide to' so avg folks who dont know much about genes and all would understand what this all is.

This is very interesting though.

can start a thread on genetics if you like..or if admin likes, he can put up a history subforum or perhaps a genetics subforum

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@ssingh

16 The fiend who smears himself with flesh of cattle, with flesh of horses and of human bodies,Who steals the milch-cow’s milk away, O Agni,-tear off the heads of such with fiery fury.

rig veda, book 10 hymn 87.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10087.htm

Can you not understand your own religion?

It says whoever smears himself with the flesh of a cow, is a fiend. It sounds like Vedism was a highly anti cow religion to me.

But this is the quote you’re missing

“*11 Let us serve Agni with our hymns, Disposer, fed on ox and cow,
Who bears the Soma on his back.”
*http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10043.htm

This is proof Vedism in pre-Islamic Pakistan was not the same as modern day Hinduism. They were completely seperate religions with different philosophies, that modern day Hinduism has accepted and rejected parts on the grounds of dharmic and adharmic stuff.

[ssingh]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@roadrunner

Can you not understand your own religion?

It says whoever smears himself with the flesh of a cow, is a fiend. It sounds like Vedism was a highly anti cow religion to me.

But this is the quote you’re missing

"11 Let us serve Agni with our hymns, Disposer, fed on ox and cow,
Who bears the Soma on his back."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10043.htm

This is proof Vedism in pre-Islamic Pakistan was not the same as modern day Hinduism. They were completely seperate religions with different philosophies, that modern day Hinduism has accepted and rejected parts on the grounds of dharmic and adharmic stuff.

cow and ox stand for satva gunas and agni stands for chakras of raja yoga. A cow or ox necessarily doesn’t mean an cow and ox. there is symbolism behind it. and soma is the experience that you have, after you are successful in your raja yoga.

http://www.vedah.com/org2/literature/deeper_meaning/symbolism_rigveda.html

you should brouse through this website which is after aurobindo, an expert in vedas.

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@ssingh

dude....if this aryan invasion theory is proved wrong, then there quiet a number of indians who will feel happy about it as well:D . you should tell this to roadrunner, who is trying to prove aryan invasion theory right which directly tellst that harappa and mohenjadaro civilizations belongs to dravidians which invading aryans destroyed and pushed dravidians down south india.

I dont think you have grasped what's going on.

Aryans were probably migrating to Pakistan when Mohenjendaro was flourishing. It is quite possible there was no savage invasion, but the Vedic Aryans were members of Indus Valley society.

[ssingh]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

and current/past hinduism was also the one followed by dravidians. dravidians are ardent devotees of shiva who himself is depicted as an advaitha vedanta follower who always keeps meditating.

[ssingh]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@roadrunner

I dont think you have grasped what's going on.

Aryans were probably migrating to Pakistan when Mohenjendaro was flourishing. It is quite possible there was no savage invasion, but the Vedic Aryans were members of Indus Valley society.

could be. this is a theory. so nobody can fully prove it.

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@Abhiman

Well OK, but in that case India has all claim to the Mughal empire, Urdu language, Sultanate and Tipu Sultan, and Pakistan has none.

Agreed. If all those things existed within the confines of India's current day borders, Pakistan has no claim to any of that history. Now leave Pakistan's history alone.

[QUOTE]

Rig Veda written in Vedic Sanskrit, is the holiest book in Hinduism along with the 4 Vedas even today. "Hindu" as a word was invented by Persians, otherwise we can be termed as Vedic people.

[/QUOTE]

Not true. Hindu was invented by the Vedic Aryan term "Sindhu" which was the name they gave to the "Sapta Sindhu" or Indus River. In Persian the "s" becomes a "h" and so Hindu. The Greeks then say it differently which leads to the word "Ind" and then to India. So the name India actually refers to the region of the Indus River to give it its correct name, India would be the region of modern day Pakistan since this is what the Pakistani Vedic Aryans called it. The region known as India today was called things like "Gupta" or "Maratha Confederation", but never was it called India until the British forced the name onto the whole of the subcontinent.

[QUOTE]

I agree that many temples, stupas, ancient sites etc. lie in the politically defined territory of today's Pakistan, but India and Indians have as much claim to it culturally and historically. Culturally, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has nothing in common to its pre-Mohammad_bin_Qasim past, however it has only historical claim.
[/quote]

Pakistan has no claim on Hinduism. You have all the claims for this. Pakistan does have a claim on Vedism, India does not. Pakistan does have a claim on the name India, India does not..oh the irony.

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@DSPathania

We Indians are not obsessed with Aryan, Dravidian issues. It is only when some ignoramus starts writing that all Indians are dravidians, somebody has to put them on the right track.

All indians are not Dravidian. The majority of Indians are.

[ssingh]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@roadrunner

Pakistan has no claim on Hinduism. You have all the claims for this. Pakistan does have a claim on Vedism, India does not. Pakistan does have a claim on the name India, India does not..oh the irony.

i think....just because rig veda is composed in regions around pakistan, it doesn't mean that you have claim on vedism. what about other vedas, smritis and other literature for that matter?...

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@vineshvk

No my dear your papers state a very different picture. What are you arguing here, that indians have no heritance over whats on pakistan. Thats baseless. Indians in numbers would be as strong as pakistan in numbers with respect to aryan ancestry.

What a joke. All the maps such as Guha and Eickelstadt (which I’ve posted, but you’ve evidently failed to see), point to the majority of India being Graziloindide or some other Dravidian group. There’s plenty more maps like them around. They all show what we already know. That India is prdominatly Dravidian. The maps on Pakistan all point to the majroty being Nordindide which is basically an Aryan group. They are two seperate populations, different people, different ancestries.

Yes pakistan has more of the r12a(24%) to indian (15%), but that could be because of the influnce of the arabs.

Pakistan has between 35-45% R1a1. India does not have 15% R1a1 (r12a is?). R1a1 is present in India perhaps in about 10% of the population (though this is probably an overestimate as nothing conclusive has been produced for India, except the map on the first page), the majority of India is H, J2 or R2. Arabs do not contain R1a1 either. Do try and follow what’s going on. R1a1 does not go straight West of Pakistan in any big numbers.

The amount of yellow in the India map doesnt look anything near like the amount of yellow as in Pakistan and the id & proportions of the haplogroups are completely different to Pakistan’s also.

Pakistan

India

Muslims of India have a higher r12a comparable to pakistanies.

It’s been proven that Pakistan has 45% R1a1, India has around 10% maybe (nothing conclusive on this). Most likely Azerbaijan has more R1a1 than India. The upper castes in India do seem to have more R1a1 but nothing conclusive here either.

Then if you consider who are the aboriginals indians have more indegnious genes then pakistani people have. And if harappan and mohanjadaro are the indegenious civiliasation then that means indians are the rightfull owners of that land. period.

This looks like a mess. Can’t follow this.

The mtdna analysis in your references state that indian stock has common maternal ancestry. They also state that dravidians had occupaid all of india and onslought of aryans decided to move down to south to preserve their culuture and treditions. But there were intermingling and that is why there are traces of dravidians genes in north populace and aryan genes in south.

Did not quote any MtDNA. All is Y-chromosomal.

But I’ll come onto MtDNA..Indian MtDNA is very Indian, and is different from Pakistani MtDNA.

The Dravidian genes are spread all over India. People migrate all over. The NorthWest of India is the most Aryan part of India, which is predominantly Dravidian, especially in the South.

[garmihawathandapaani]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

Roadie, you’re putting a lot into this and I find it a very interesting thread to read, even though I have a lot of questions - more questions than answers. But a few things seem somewhat co-mingled here and I’d appreciate your clarifications on these upfront so that I can better understand your interpretations:

1. When you say Pakistan & Pakistani, what do you mean by that? If you had taken an “average Pakistani”, hasn’t that undergone a sudden and violent change since Bangla Desh? I think your term “Pakistan” should mean a rough region rather the nation country. In other words, everything you have said (assuming the data and haplostuff is true) would have been true if you replace the term Pakistan and Pakistani with the terms Punjab and Sind, until just about 60 years ago. Even I know it takes more than 60 years for major shifts in ethnicity.

2. While the haplographs show data classifications, is it wise to weave a story (I don’t mean that derisively) by applying guesswork theories such as the Aryan invasion? As you probably should know the Aryan invasion theory has been under some examination lately and now it appears to have more holes than matter - not the least of which is that if you have bank on the Aryan invasion theory, you have believe that the Celts, Indians and Mongols all were part of the Aryan clan that spread out 3 ways.

3. Finally I think it would be useful if you point out clearly to all readers that haplographs are NOT DNA evidence (which is what most people, including me, used to think). These change significantly depending upon at what point in time you are mapping it for as well as a hellua lot of guess work. As the foot note in the World Haplograpgh (1500 AD) in following links states: Here

Also I just noticed Page-5 in the above link shows the SP and IN graphs to be very very similar (for the uninitiated folks such as me the green and the pink form majority in both; for the scientific types I guess it would be T and u, what ever that means to your mitochondrial soup)

I will admit I know little about haplos and graphs and look forward to learning a lot from your hard work.

One additional question - How come the aborigenes of Australia look like many ‘dravidian’ features (easiest source for this is Crocodile Dundee) yet the maps don’t seem to show that?