America's ongoing love for Israel.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Do you seriously believe these actions warrant billions per year in aid and such level of friendship? Besides 1967 war was directly Israeli war, it wasn’t like Israel fighted that war on behalf of US, so lets not drag Communism card here unncesessarily, it was war of existence for them.

you have already made up your mind about everyone here, haven’t you? :hoonh:

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Well so have you!

Many West-settled Paks live and thrive in the West, so they must carry the Arab inspired anti-Israel and anti-Semitic feelings with pride. They are no summun bukmun so there is no way their minds will change and see the reality of global politics.

Oh Bhai, Egypt hasn’t done even remotely close to what Israel has done for the USA. And still Egyptians are among the top recipients of billions of US money.

Ehtasab you are much more balanced on many other issues. However on Israel your bias looks pretty strong, so the analysis coming from such bias will be incorrect as well.

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Re: America's ongoing love for Israel.

i can see how drinking capitalist cola and haraam meat can make someone see israel in a different light. something to do with the expulsion of decency from the body, to start believing might is right, to devalue the price of life, to see sense in ecconomically supporting the rich to crush the poor.

israeli supporters in washington need rehabilitation, but its not coming anytime soon mainly because there is no muslim power which can make the americans think twice. its too easy for them to just support israel, so they do. this is where pakistan, its nuclear weapons and general ambitions comes into it. the current wave of natural change, if allowed to happen will see the muslim middle east inc pakistan develop credible detterence to military threats. israel will be checked. israellis wont hang around in the ME under these circumstanes. they'll chip, do one, vacate. so its easy to see why this window of oppurtunity is being used to control the muslim worlds progress and to nulify it. israel cant do this themselves, its too small but the very big US can (i mean can try)

i urge israel to negotiate genuinely with the palestinian people, part correct and recognise the mistreatment of huge proportions of the palestinian people and stay with the islamic world in the middle east near to the holy land. its by far the most peaceful route which will please the almighty which both religions live for but drinking capitalist cola, as they do, will make israel go the route of satan.

dead palestinins, egyptians, jordanians, syrians, lebanese, turks, iraqis, iranians, saudis, qataris, yemenis, turkmenese, afghanmenese, malaysians, indonesians and dead pakistanis but there will still be people standing up to the israellis. why? because its wrong, plain wrong

GS P H O T O G R A P H Y
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Why criticism of "Paks live and thrive in the west"? Do you think Pakistanis living in Pakistan are any different? Lets not bring "living in West" again until there is clear divide. Pakistanis started harping on Arab issues when concept of "Ummah" was drummed up in Pakistan back in 70s/80s and it is still very popular regardless of how much Arabs support our issues.

[quote]
Oh Bhai, Egypt hasn't done even remotely close to what Israel has done for the USA. And still Egyptians are among the top recipients of billions of US money.

Ehtasab you are much more balanced on many other issues. However on Israel your bias looks pretty strong, so the analysis coming from such bias will be incorrect as well.
[/quote]

Does Egypt enjoy same "big-brotherly" protection as Israel? I don't think so. Did Egypt attack US carrier? I don't think, may be you have more info. Would US ignore an Egyptian attack on US interests? Hmmmm, I don't think that to be true either. So I do have bias against "Israel" but that has nothing do with "Jews".

Timepass / Uncle Ehsan's Baithak - August 2012
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When it comes to international understanding, Paks living in the West have several advantages over people still living in the home country. They Western Paks are generally speaking more educated, more affluent, and do have access to more unbiased info about Israel and the history.

Still the West-Settled-Paks sing the main-na-maanoon song day and night. Refuse to accept more information, and refuse to be educated. This is what happened when people drink too much Islamic-socialist cola. They get high on hatred and conspiracy theories.

If Egypt's vital interests are threatened and Egypt is still in the Western club, yes Americans will help Egypt daame durmay sukhanay.

Don't you see Kuwait did get help from the USA when its integrity was threatened? So did Bosnians and Kosovars.

Unfortunately many Pakistanis do not see these examples clearly due to their stoned stone agge biases. Thus they end up drawing wrong conclusions.

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Many people who gave up "bias" still condemn Israeli excesses (though not because of "brotherhood"), some people who are 'in-touch' with Arabs (and thus the feed-to-bias continues).

What do you think US will do if there is a conflict between Egypt and Israel? Kuwait crisis had lot to do with $$ (ching-ching) plus oil. Take away Kuwaiti oil and see if they get any "help" ;)

I am still waiting to see a list of actions Israel did for US that warrants such deep trust and friendship (bombing of US carrier doesn't count towards help ;-) ).

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I agree. you are right on the money ;-). The majority of Pakistanis who are active in anti-Israel campaign come from the "second" group as you mention.

Depends who is most vital and who is still in the American camp.

You can look into historical conditions in Egypt vs. Israel to draw some analogies. Remember Egypt only came into American camp when President Carter used BIG carrot (mucho dollaros), and Israel used the BIG stick in 1973.

Egyptian leadership learned their lesson and followed both the stick and the carrot.

Fast forward to your hypothetical scenario, egypt and israel will most likely do not go to war because they both belong to the same American camp. However Egypt is newer member and Israel has been a longer term member. Usually seniority means something.

So your question should be framed a bit more precisely. That who will leave American camp first. If it is Egypt then the answer is clear. If on the other hand for some reason Israel leaves American camp, then off course the answer is clearer.

;-) who can question your analysis here.

So what if it was do with $$ (ca-ching) or oil? Can we not define oil as a vital interest?

Bro! quit waiting. You do not have to long for information anymore. Almost everything is on the net now. you are not living in 7th century Arabia where knowledge would come from a single source. Just make sure that you leave your biases at home when starting the journey of awareness. And I am sure you do believe in un-emotional education.

I urge you to do your homework. Israel never attacked a US carrier (they could not). Care to name the carrier BTW?

hint hint. It was a small reconasense ship called USS liberty. And yes Israeli army was at fault. And they admitted to it by paying $13 million dollars as damages back then .

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Interestingly you can't provide info as what Israel did for US but you ALL the other information that you can share handily :)

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This is obviously behas bra-ay behas now. Not sure what you are looking for. Let me ask you a question (just to clarify these ambiguities in your behas), what do you think Israel should have done for America (to make you change your stance)?

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Re: America's ongoing love for Israel.

Israel should stop occupying Palestinian land and killing Palestinian civilians, isn't it obvious? That is the reason why Pakistanis, along with the rest of the Muslims, hate Israel. It would also help if they allowed us to visit Masjid Al-Aqsa and return it to the jurisdiction of Muslims.

Anyway who are you to take up the cause from Israel when Israel has done so much against Pakistan and the rest of the Muslims? The biggest proponents of invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria, Iran, and Pakistan are the Yahood.

Astaghfirallah, the falsehood has blinded you. Being a Muslim, we should support justice all throughout the world and it is our duty to defend the Palestinians, even when no one else will.

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Pakistanis have no clue about the real issues in Israel-Palestinian fiasco. We are just sunnis, believing in sunni sunnai khabrain. We are just Shias who listen to Imams in tehran and start our mindless shouting.

Here is a very simple lesson of history chanda. Palestinian leadership was offered a secure Palestinian state in 1948. Unfortunately they did not have Jinnah like leader (you can't expect from Palestinians anyways). Palestinians instead wanted to fight and capture the whole Israel. This dimwit approach backfired and they lost even more. Now the situation is so poisoned that it is really hard to convince many Israelis that Palestinians can be good neighboring state. However if Palestinians continue using a non-violent attitude, they will get their homeland soon.

Pakistanis in their stupidity wipe all the news from 60 years and pick up the hate for no reason.

Spreading falsehoods again. Israel has never stopped Pakistanis. It is us who have stopped Israelis to visit Pakistan. It is our passport that says not valid for Israel. We have the hate in our hearts for Israelis. They don't hate Pakistanis. Have you ever met an Israeli? I guess not. Just reading terror websites is not going to give you balanced view and it shows.

Do you know what shocked Israelis most? When two British of Pakistani origin exploded their uncouth bodies in Israel. why? It was the same jihadi falsehood that you are spreading here. These miserable Jihadis had no problem going to Aqsa. And still they used typical munafiq approach and harmed Israelis and damaged the good image of Pakistanis.

And that is???????????????????

Israelis don't harbor animosity against Pakistanis. They don't stamp their passports with anti-Pakistan wordings. They don't murder Pakistanis and Pakistani journalists. So quit spreading Jihadi falsehoods.

And what that is that defense thingy? Loudmouthing against Israel? That's worse than girly fight.

That's not defense, that's childplay.

Also have you ever asked Palestinians how they feel about Pakistan with all this childish uproar from Pakistanis? They say leave us alone.
**
Palestinians do not want Pakistani support and they do not want to support Pakistan. From day 1 they have supported India. From day 1 Palestinians have spoken against the cause of Pakistanis and Pakistani Kashmirs.
**
And still your and other Jihadis are hell bent on spreading munafiqana talk. What a shame.

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burqaposh:

[quote]
Palestinian leadership was offered a secure Palestinian state in 1948.
[/quote]

The land belonged to Palestinians. Foreigners from abroad can not declare a state on their own, and then OFFER a portion of their usurped land to the original people of the land.

[quote]

Pakistanis in their stupidity wipe all the news from 60 years and pick up the hate for no reason.
[/quote]

Zionists in their hate call Muslims stupid for demanding to remove foreigners from Islamic holy land.

[quote]
We have the hate in our hearts for Israelis.
[/quote]

Israelis have the hate in their heart against anyone who dares to criticize their occupation of Islam's holy sites.

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How so?

Palestinian is not an ethnic group nor was it a country. It was a province of the Ottoman Empire and then became part of the British Empire.

The Jews who came from Europe settled primarily in Tel Aviv and other areas where there were no Palestinians.

It is also Jewish holy land and also christian holyland. Islam cannot claim this all to it self

And you have hate in your heart for anyone to criticize your beloved Palestine

34

ditto.

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[quote="burqaposhx, post:20, topic:189670"]

When it comes to international understanding, Paks living in the West have several advantages over people still living in the home country. They Western Paks are generally speaking more educated, more affluent, and do have access to more unbiased info about Israel and the history.

Still the West-Settled-Paks sing the main-na-maanoon song day and night. Refuse to accept more information, and refuse to be educated. This is what happened when people drink too much Islamic-socialist cola. They get high on hatred and conspiracy theories.

how can you generalise on such wide group of people? From your posts i make the assumption you are not settled in the west and yet feel you can make judgements about such a massive number of people. Perhaps your experiences with "west settled paks" as you call them has limited your opinion, but let me assure you no two people are the same.

"refuse to accept more information, and refuse to be educated".

you either need to start widening your social circle or get your head out of the clouds mate.

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I think you are confusing the issue of Jewish land ownership before 1948 with lands captured by Israel in 67 war. Read up accounts of travelers who were in the area before 1948 and they will clearly tell you that there were hundreds if not thousands of kibbutz (Jewish communities) and Jewish farms long before 1948.

However many Islamists do not want to read unbiased history, and the result is this awful muttering by every Tom Dick and Harry of Arab-lackeys.

There are millions of Arabs living in Israel whose lands were not snatched by Israel and you still want to repeat nutjob's ra-ra-ra on Pakistani forums.

Let me give you a simple example closer to home. This is important because your hate against perceived usurpation by Israel is very similar to Hindu extremists who think Muslims took Hindu land in 1947.

FYI. Jewish settlements and regions preceded the declaration of 1948. This is very similar to the existence of Muslims majority districts that preceded 1947's birth of Pakistan and India.

Do you think a Hindu in Kerala can lay claims to Muslim land in Multan with just one reason that Muslims showed up way later that Hindus in the area?

Do you think Hindus can simply claim that Muslims drove them away from Multan and took over the land?

The process of Isllamization of India took many centuries and culminated in 1947 as creation of Pakistan.

The process of Jewish settlement in the Middle East took century and a half and culminated in 1948 as creation of Israel.

India and Pakistan accepted the international border and moved on (with an exception of few areas).

Arabs refused to accept the reality, and started the war that they lost. And now they are using half-brained Pakistanis to rile up hatred against Israel. What a shame for such Pakistanis that they are copying Arab and Hindu extremists.

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Sara sahiba, it will be a mistake to accuse others of generalization when you are the one who started this "generalized" threat.

You will be proven correct the day a large number of West Settled Paks supporting the Jewish state or at least quit spewing hate on every forum they can access.

Off course you can use many different methods to judge the opinion of west settled paks. In the USA they opposed John Kerry and supported Bush. You know why? Because Kerry had a "Ju" (as one Pakistani cab driver said back then) Veep candidate.

Just travel through the West, and talk to Paks from different social groups and you will find the reality. Talk to cab drivers and then talk to well settled doctors and majority of them parrot Arab propaganda about Jews.

This is truly sad. As most Jewish people in the West do not seem to hate Pakistanis.

Disclaimer: These opinions are based on unscientific surveys of ordinary Pakistanis and ordinary Jews.

Ok Sara sahiba, Hopefully you will not parrot generalized expressions about people whom you don't even know.

As you say, no two people are the same, so you are an exception. Surely your posts in future will show which people you side with.

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;-) i dont side with anyone - just me. And im pretty confident in the human race which includes a billion strong muslim population, to say, im sure there must be more people sharing that thought, out there.

39

Re: America's ongoing love for Israel.

Everyone knows there were Jews and Christians living in that region for thousands of years. Only ignorant folks would do that, and I think Prince Abbas is not one of them. Only those who love to suck up to Israel will bring up "Jews were there long before Israel" .. nobody is arguing over the Jews.

Anyways, the question now is when will Israel take down their Berlin wall they put up? When will it stop the occupation? Arabs living in Israel are not treated as citizens and we all know that so it's useless to bring that up. Blacks were treated inhumanely in America, did they not, even long after slavery was abolished. So what's the difference, only that Arab is the new Black.

Accents!!
40

Re: America's ongoing love for Israel.

IMHO, the basic problem with such discussions is that people on both sides of the fence needs to understand one important fact. This world is not an ideal place and in most situations decisions are not made on the basis of right and wrong or on what is fair or not. In politics there is only one rule and that is what hepls one to increase its one's interest. After that everything is just to gather support. America or any other power at any time in history acts that way.
I can ask simple question why muslims of pakistan are more concerned about Palestinians but not as much about muslims in Burma/Philipines/Somalia. Why no one protest when Saddam was killing Shias and Kurds or Turks kill Kurds. A killed muslim is a killed muslim, isn't it. Does it make difference who killed him. Some causes are just not sexy enough.
By saying all this I didn't mean that I think what Israel/USA are doing in Palestine is right but what I am trying to say here that emphasizing on right or wrong is good for discussions but it won't change any thing.

Timepass / Uncle Ehsan's Baithak - August 2012