Allegations Against Ahmediyya

Society Religion & Philosophy
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This means that I made a post but I removed becuase I felt it was written in emotions.

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Now you made a U turn. or maybe you dont agree with the views of Jammat e Ahamdiyya and calling other muslims sects non-admadis as muslims. I wonder why you use the term non-Ahamdis as non-ahamdis-Muslims for the other sects of Islam.

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What U TURN are you talking about....even if I or Mr Popat said something which contradicts what Khalifa tul Masih said then you should take words of Khalifa tul Masih then ours...no hard feelings...if there is slight of a difference or contradictions then we will applogise for mis-interpretations.

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The only reason comes in my mind that you dont want to evoke anger in others; when you as a person invite them to join or convert to Qadiyani faith. but the official view of Jammat e Ahamdiyaa is that all other muslim sects are Kafir.

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This is not the reason...an anger does not come from a momin it is always invoked by SHAITAN...hence if someone gets angry then its their problem.

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Thanks for your suggestion. However, this does not mean that to Qadiyanis officially other muslims sects are muslim, they are kafir because of denial of Mirza Qadiyani. If you think, the topic is done, i can go for the next issue.
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This is indeed our belief and it is very logical and from one point of view also your believe too (if you put yourself in my shoes then).

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I agree this is not an allegation...you might call it but I am sure there are a lot of other issues which should be addressed then Kaafir Muslim debate.

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I believe this issue of "Kaafir/Muslim debate" is the key of all allegations.

If you think the issue is sattled, then, can i go for the further questions.

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Look if you think this is an allegation and needs reply then lets clarify this first....As I said what you presented in the extract from the book is exactly what we believe. What is your allegation on writing or belief?

I personally think the issue is not actually an issue or if it is then its not of any importance....

You are most welcome to bring other allegations we will try to reply. However bear in mind main stream issues like Khatm e Nabbuwat and Death of Isa (A.S) and topics related to fundamental believes are discussed very openly before and they are not necessary an allegation and would require a new thread.

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Fair enough, but, you should also reciprocate and put yourself in our shoes and acknowledge that our beleif is also logical viz a viz Ahmedis.

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You are very right, thx, this is what i was going to say.

I believe, the thing which i am telling you is correct. and if the thing is correct you dont need to object it, only your agreement is enough. if you say "I agree". its enough there is no allegation.
Blames are always false but Allegations are not. If i say there are 4 marriages allowed for men in islam. It is not a blame however its an allegation which needs justification.

At first, you and another gs qadiyani members were not sure what is the status of other muslim sects. you were using the term non-ahmadi-muslims for them but in actual they were/are kafir. and their status of kufr was declared long time back in the times of 2nd khalifa. this is a normal practice of qadiyanis they always use the term muslim and always say that dont give a fatwa of kufar of a kalima-go (though you do it for your protection, but its not correct in your own views when they see other muslim sects.) . so this is an allegation which is actually correct, but qadiyani members were not accepting, you came up very aggressively, when the proof from the scanned image was given, you changed your mind.

the following is the one example of your aggressiveness:

I will advise everybody on forums not to show any kind of harsh behavior on Internet. first listen, what the other person is saying. think deeply and verify it if required and then answer. do not think that the other person, who is raising the issue is just popping up the post without any knowledge.

this world will be a peaceful place atleast we understand each other, nevertheless there are disagreements between each other.
**
In my next question, i will ask you another question, if you are ready for that. please let me know.**

Wht r u doing ?
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Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

Inuit,
you're showing the wrong face of me for no reason. My question to you to provide me with one definition of Muslim was fulfilled by you when you said any one who says kalima taiyaba is a Muslim.

Anyhow, you are still not allowed to issue your fatwa or even say that ahmadis are kafir until and unless you prove Hazrat mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as the false Imam mahdi .. and then you have to provide me from Quran that following a wrong Imam Mahdi is kufr.

the definition of Kafir by the 2nd khalifa is what you need to understand. I repeat, do not just read the underlined sentence, but read the whole page to understand fully what hes talking about.

Anyhow, im done with this topic. Its enough already. I will reply only when i feel the need of it.

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you rejecting imam mahdi (AS) will make you kafir.. (kafir of Imam Mahdi AS.. but thats expanding the topic,which i dont want to get into).. but how would us accepting the imam mahdi make us kafir? Please clarify.

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Reference from 1st Khalifa's history (Hz Abu Bakr r.a) regarding false Mamoor is already provided in previous post. you never touched it.

this is a wrong way of puting the question.

This is the correct way:

Question: how would us accepting (FALSE) imam mahdi make us kafir?
Answer: Becase he is FALSE; If you bellieve in a false one, you will become kafir. despite the fact you believe that he was not false. your believe will not be consider. and this phenomena is very well explain before with lots of examples.

May i ask, from where your 2nd Khalifa got the permission to issue a statement (fatwa) of Kufr against those muslims sects who dont believe in Mirza as Mamoor from Allah. If He feels that he is allowed to issue a fatwa or even if he says that Muslims sects are kafir then I and other Muslims do have the right to say that Mirza and his followers are kafir.

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Stop calling me Qadiyani etc if you want a reply from me.....I am not a Qadyani OK!...You are most welcome to address me as Qadiyani...

I think this allegation does not require anymore clarification. If you look at my very first posts I clearly wrote what is the stance of Jamaat Ahamdiyya on some of the allegation and no more further discussion on this. This obviously prolongs the discussion unnecessarily.

If something very simple said in quotation you present and you couldnt understand then I cannot make it more easier.

Tell me one thing DID YOU READ THE WHOLE BOOK OR ARE YOU COPY PASTING FROM ANTI AHMDIYYA WEBSITE?

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I have no objection with your statement. At least I am being honest and accepting this but your side is not.

I should have clarified my stance.

Scenario 1

IF Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) is the CORRECT Promissed Messiah and you reject him. You will become Kafir. This statement should be agreed by you and me. I agree whats your stance?

Awaited Messiah is also a Prophet. If you dont believe in all Prophets you are automatically out of phaze of Islam. I agree to this statement what is your stance?

Scenario 2

IF Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) is NOT CORRECT Promissed Messiah and you reject him. You will NOT become Kafir. This statement should be agreed by you and me. I agree whats your stance? In other words I will be Kafir.

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May I ask where did your Mullah got permission to declare someone NON_MUSLIM?

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I have read the whole book and found crap of fighting two mullahs ; Mirza Bashir Qadiyani and Moulvi Muhammad Ali Qadiyani (Lahori). I did not have any interest in it. but had to read for you.

Mullah used the brain like your 2nd Qadiyani Khalifa used it. If your qadiyani khalifa can use the brain the same way the mullah can use his brain too. Qadiyanis are Kafir; because Mirza is a False mamoor. This is what my brain is saying like your Khalifa's brain. no difference.

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ohh well I wouldnt say you are lying that you have read the book. (However I am very convinced from heart that you havent.)

Enough is said by me on replying you. I have no interest in replying you further unless you stop being abusive.

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Regarding yur first statement, i have not come across a unanimous ruling that people not beleiving in Jesus when he comes second time will become kafirs.

Secondly, your statement is not in line with our beliefs bcoz we make distinction between Mahdi and Jesus, while you by using a blanket term Messiah twisitng the things. So you need to be more specific and we can take from there.

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I thought this doesn't even require a common consensus between ULEMA as it is an issue of common sense and of great debate of 21st century. A person is sent by Allah and a person rejects him and you are telling me that you require a consensus between ULEMA to declare that person Kaafir?

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Secondly, your statement is not in line with our beliefs bcoz we make distinction between Mahdi and Jesus, while you by using a blanket term Messiah twisitng the things. So you need to be more specific and we can take from there.
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Ohh well dont make it complicated for your self. You can take this hypotheticaly as if I am talking about Esa ibn Maryam (A.S) and NOT Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S).

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Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

^Then hypothetically what will be your beleif towards me, if i declare(God forbid) that i am Jesus, whom Allah has sent, will you consider me in such case a muslim or kaafir?

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You see, you still have very little knowledge of jamaat e ahmadiyya. You must learn something before having questions about it.

When Ahmadis say Jesus of Nazareth (AS) died, why then do Ahmadis take Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) as Jesus (AS)? Learn that first...

But then again, to answer your question, if you just declare yourself Jesus (AS) you will have to then produce Imam Mahdi from somewhere, or else it will go against your Islamic beliefs. Islam is now how your ullamas have understood it, anything contradicting to that (even if you have reasoning from Quran/hadith), will be declared kafir not by Ahmadis but by your own Ullamas..

Secondly, people have declared themselves such and such ever since after the death of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, where do you see them all? where are their jamaats? what happened to all of them? i'll tell you.. Allah says in Quran that if someone swears upon me and say that I'm sent by Allah and he's lying, Allah will cut his throat ( make him die ).. and His followers will be left without the help of Allah and are hell destined. ( cant quote the exact verse from Quran as i cant remember ) but point is.. Allah will help you If He has sent you, if you wrongly swear upon Allah, He'll show the entire world of what happens if someone lies on His name. We see totally different scenario with Jamaat e Ahmadiyya. Alhumdulillah, its been 100+ years of khilafat established in jamaat and despite all attempts by Mullahs in Pakistan,India,Bangladesh,Indonesia ( just to name a few ) , they have been continuously progressing, whether it be in Northern side of the world or it be deserts of Africa. Ahmadis by only the grace of Allah the almighty have translated Quran in so many different languages around the world. Truly, if one wants to see the spirit of Islam, must see Jamaat e Ahmadiyya.

Thirdly, if you claim to be Jesus (AS), then you will be kafir declared by your own ullama because according to their understanding of Islam, Jesus (AS) is to come to Earth bodily alive, as He was taken 'up' to heavens somewhere.

Fourthly, you were born with ur parents, Jesus (AS) , upon his second coming was suppose to come to Earth bodily ( as per your ullamas understanding ) and thus from them, the issuance of kufr fatwa.

Make sure when you claim to be Jesus (AS), to start breaking the cross and kill all the swine in the world ( if you dont, you are considered kafir as Jesus was suppose to do that literally according to your very own beliefs ).

Question then really is that, if the Islam which is understood by Ullamas is the right Islam then theres no need for jesus or Imam Mahdi to come, but the fact that there is a *need *of one is certain that Quranic scripture will be left untouched but everyone will have their own way of interpreting it, based on what they think it means.. ( NOT what Allah has told them .. as theres a major difference ).

PS: see Ahmadis will not issue a fatwa against you as Jesus (AS), until and unless you come as Jesus and start preaching Bible ( for which He actually came to the world.. your job as Jesus would then be just to change Bible where it got wrong.. you will get no opportunity to interfere with Muhammad PBUH's shariyah ). If you come as Jesus and preach Islam, then my friend you are not the Jesus who was sent to bani israel.

So conclusion is :

You being Jesus will have to provide Imam Mahdi too ( according to your own Ullamas ), or else the label of Kafir.

Being Jesus means killings swines and breaking cross or else the label of kafir.

If you had come from heavens directly, then that would make me think positive about you, but if you were born and decide not to kill swine and break cross ( in its very literal meaning .. as in really going around the world killing swines etc ), then buddy, theres already this person ( may Allah be pleased with Him ).. whom has come earlier than you with the same idea. Allah reveals His secret not to anyone but His prophets.. we'll see what He will reveal you.

PS: will come back sunday night to answer you , if you quote me back.

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Ahmadis will consider you kafir if you claim to be Jesus and preach something other than Islam. No other prophet can now come earlier or new which can cancel the Muhammadi SAW shariyah till qayamah. Anyone doing that is for sure a liar and a deceiver.

PS: if you quote me, you'll get the reply sunday night as im heading out of town. But do think what i told you before jumping around here and there.

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Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

So you agree that if a person makes a false claim of being Jesus, he is kaffir and so are his followers? Right