Allegations Against Ahmediyya

[Mr.Popat]

@inuit

This statement of yours gives me an understanding that if somebody doesnt answer and leaves the question unanswered. it means he agreed. or couldnt find the answer.

My question is not yet answered. !

If you have objection to what i said to Aramis on the issue of calling Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as agent of british gov’t then please raise your objection. When i replied aramis, she had nothing else to say nor did anyone else (including you) raised any argument against it. When reply is given to someone and s/he changes the topic makes it clear that there are no more doubts left about that issue.

As far as your questions are concerned please go back to the thread and find my replies to your questions.. here they are..:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6672180-post150.html
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6672559-post152.html

Infact , if you read my replies to you, i am waiting for your answer on the definition of “Muslim”

Also no reply was given by you on this matter as well :

You believe that Imam Mahdi/Promised Messiah (AS) is suppose to come in the latter days. So does the Ahmadi Muslims. Ahmadis recognizing the person as prophesised by Muhammad PBUH, and accepting Him makes them ‘kaafir’ but when the same belief is held by you people, you are considered Muslims. Therefore, what i think is that just the mere belief of Imam Mahdi/Promised Messiah (AS) is what it needs to be called Muslim , and not actually accepting him. Is that right?

These were also my questions in reply to your questions to which you did not reply to my satisfaction

1. What will you be called by your fellow Muslims if and when you happen to live in the time of the coming of Hazrat Imam Mahdi /Promised Messiah (AS)… if you accept him, and other Muslims reject him. Will you be ok when they call you kafir?

2. Please provide me with the name of the book or just merely an article explaining the meaning of the word ‘Muslim’ and I would also like to see the whole Muslim Ummah’s consensus on the brief definition. Thank you.

3. Can you prove what you have been believing thus far is actually the ‘islamic’ teachings?

you can also read your own reply of those questions here :http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6672354-post151.html

as you can see you are trying to avoid the question of what the definition of a Muslim is.. it would be nice to have sensible answers from you.

[inuit]

@Mr.Popat

If you have objection to what i said to Aramis on the issue of calling Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as agent of british gov’t then please raise your objection. When i replied aramis, she had nothing else to say nor did anyone else (including you) raised any argument against it. When reply is given to someone and s/he changes the topic makes it clear that there are no more doubts left about that issue.

Once one issue is resolved, i will come to the topic of “Mirza Qadiyani as a british agent” or “Prophecy of Mirza Qadiyani about Moulvi Sanaullah”
I dont want to mixup the issues.

First accept either of the group is “Kafir”, which is an undeniable fact; scanned image of writing of your 2nd khalifa also shows this. i am posting that image again at the bottom of this post.

@Mr.Popat

As far as your questions are concerned please go back to the thread and find my replies to your questions.. here they are..:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6672180-post150.html
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6672559-post152.html

These are already answered as “Jawab-ul-jawab” in coming posts.

@Mr.Popat

Infact , if you read my replies to you, i am waiting for your answer on the definition of “Muslim”

I have already replied about it. No need to repeat the same question again and again to create a doubt in the minds of readers.

@Mr.Popat

Also no reply was given by you on this matter as well :
You believe that Imam Mahdi/Promised Messiah (AS) is suppose to come in the latter days. So does the Ahmadi Muslims. Ahmadis recognizing the person as prophesised by Muhammad PBUH, and accepting Him makes them ‘kaafir’ but when the same belief is held by you people, you are considered Muslims. Therefore, what i think is that just the mere belief of Imam Mahdi/Promised Messiah (AS) is what it needs to be called Muslim , and not actually accepting him. Is that right?

• This was already replied, i think you overlooked.
• i am pasting it again here.

Dispite the issue of Prophethood of Promised Imam Mahdi there no problem whether he has already arrived or he has yet to arriave in latter days. Since the Qadiyanis give wrong status of prophethood to a person who claim that he is Imam Mahdi; which make them kafir. and also they label the same person as Promised Messiah for which other muslims believe that this is not that one who will decend in latter days. That is a seperate issue whether the old one is died or alive. Muslims believe that the one in which Qadiyanis believe is the false one which makes them kafir. Neither Shia nor Sunnis do have to right to make anybody a Kafir, it is natural - logically there is no choice for Shias and Sunnis for Qadiyanies. Dont think that i am giving any favor to Shias and Sunnis. Similarly Qadiyanies do have a right to say other sects in Islam “kafir” because they are denier of a true prophet in qadiyanis views. what is the status in “bargah e Ellahie” that is a saperate issue i am not touching that.

@Mr.Popat

These were also my questions in reply to your questions to which you did not reply to my satisfaction

1. What will you be called by your fellow Muslims if and when you happen to live in the time of the coming of Hazrat Imam Mahdi /Promised Messiah (AS)… if you accept him, and other Muslims reject him. Will you be ok when they call you kafir?

There should not be any problem for the follower of any mahdi whether he is true or false. As i said its natural either group will be kafir, fasiq, whatever you name you want to give them.

@Mr.Popat

2. Please provide me with the name of the book or just merely an article explaining the meaning of the word ‘Muslim’ and I would also like to see the whole Muslim Ummah’s consensus on the brief definition. Thank you.

Defination of a muslim is out of question here. The only issue is believer of a false prophet is kafir and rejector of a true prophet is also kafir.

@Mr.Popat

3. Can you prove what you have been believing thus far is actually the ‘islamic’ teachings?

I dont need to give you any reference from any book. what i have said is a daleel from Aql’.

@Mr.Popat

as you can see you are trying to avoid the question of what the definition of a Muslim is.. it would be nice to have sensible answers from you.

**Though these are out of topic, however, Necessary answers have been given.

IF you are not satisfied, as per your self defined rule, its your responsibility to raise the objection or question to get further clarification. IF you dont raise any objection it will be considered accepted by you; as you wrote.
**

To resolve the issue i did made a post in reply of another Qadiyani poster; which you cant deny.

I am giving you a scanned referance from a book written by your khalifa. no comments are required. I think it is telling you what i meant.

Concentrate on the core of the issue.

**
I dont need any reply for anything;
I just need your comments on what your khalifa said in that scanned image. that’s all i need.
dont put the readers - squeeze the issue for them.**

[Mr.Popat]

@inuit

Once one issue is resolved, i will come to the topic of “Mirza Qadiyani as a british agent” or “Prophecy of Mirza Qadiyani about Moulvi Sanaullah”
I dont want to mixup the issues.

First accept either of the group is “Kafir”, which is an undeniable fact; scanned image of writing of your 2nd khalifa also shows this. i am posting that image again at the bottom of this post.

to me you are kaafir of Imam Mahdi (AS). Please explain how me accepting Imam Mahdi would make me kafir ? Provide reference from Quran.

@inuit

These are already answered as “Jawab-ul-jawab” in coming posts.

I have already replied about it. No need to repeat the same question again and again to create a doubt in the minds of readers.

Listen buddy.. its as simple as that. You provide me with the definition of a Muslim and we can both move on to something else. If you have already replied to it, please direct me to the post # so i can read your reply. As far as i know you have not provided me with the definite definition of a Muslim. I do not understand why you dont take this question seriously as from the definition of a Muslim will indicate who will be kafir. Meaning, anything that a Muslim IS NOT suppose to believe would make him a kafir. It will make everything crystal clear. Also, keep in mind when writing the definition , please do let us all know if theres a consensus amongst all the Ullama e Islam.

@inuit

• This was already replied, i think you overlooked.
• i am pasting it again here.

Dispite the issue of Prophethood of Promised Imam Mahdi there no problem whether he has already arrived or he has yet to arriave in latter days. Since the Qadiyanis give wrong status of prophethood to a person who claim that he is Imam Mahdi; which make them kafir. and also they label the same person as Promised Messiah for which other muslims believe that this is not that one who will decend in latter days. That is a seperate issue whether the old one is died or alive. Muslims believe that the one in which Qadiyanis believe is the false one which makes them kafir. Neither Shia nor Sunnis do have to right to make anybody a Kafir, it is natural - logically there is no choice for Shias and Sunnis for Qadiyanies. Dont think that i am giving any favor to Shias and Sunnis. Similarly Qadiyanies do have a right to say other sects in Islam “kafir” because they are denier of a true prophet in qadiyanis views. what is the status in “bargah e Ellahie” that is a saperate issue i am not touching that.

There should not be any problem for the follower of any mahdi whether he is true or false. As i said its natural either group will be kafir, fasiq, whatever you name you want to give them.

Why do you twist the question? the question is simple.. if u happen to believe Imam Mahdi (AS) in ur lifetime, will u be ok if other Muslims call you kaafir? I understand you’re gonna say either one of them will be kaafir.. but how? Kaafir means “the denier” ..therefore, you will keep calling other Muslims kafir while other will be busy issuing fatwas against you. So what are we arguing about ??

@inuit

Defination of a muslim is out of question here. The only issue is believer of a false prophet is kafir and rejector of a true prophet is also kafir.

I did not expect you to copy/paste your own answers and present it again. Definition of Muslim is a big question which can answer who is Kafir and who isnt.

@inuit

I dont need to give you any reference from any book. what i have said is a daleel from Aql’.

Question was if you believe that what you have been believing is the true teachings of Islam. that was your answer? daleel from Aql can only be applied if you use your aql. You let your Mullahs issue unnecessary fatwas.. and people like you start acting upon it without seeing whether your Mullah is guiding you to the right path or not. Is this wat you call Aql? Start acting upon Islam , the religion of Allah, and not the religion of Mullahs.. theres a huge difference there, one need good eye to see the difference.

@inuit

**Though these are out of topic, however, Necessary answers have been given.

IF you are not satisfied, as per your self defined rule, its your responsibility to raise the objection or question to get further clarification. IF you dont raise any objection it will be considered accepted by you; as you wrote**

You tried acting very clever but unfortunately wasnt all that clever of you. That above statement can only be applied in cases when one ask question and the other clarifies it and then the questioner dont raise any objection on it and move to another topic. In your case, you asked question i replied with questions in ur reply and now your replies are not the answers of my questions at all… I need not to object on anything..infact you know very well what the objection should be from my side.. that is clarify the term Muslim for me. Infact, me only saying that I am still not satisfied with your answers and raise few questions ( as i have earlier ) would be more than enough as proof that i raised objections. In aramis case you theres not even a hint that she had objection.

@inuit

To resolve the issue i did made a post in reply of another Qadiyani poster; which you cant deny.

I am giving you a scanned referance from a book written by your khalifa. no comments are required. I think it is telling you what i meant.

Concentrate on the core of the issue.

**
I dont need any reply for anything;
I just need your comments on what your khalifa said in that scanned image. that’s all i need.
dont put the readers - squeeze the issue for them.**

Reply will be given to you tomorrow Inshallah. However, in the meanwhile I do suggest you to atleast read the whole page that you posted and not just the underlined parts of it. I hope you do understand what you posted.

[aramis]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

If you have objection to what i said to Aramis on the issue of calling Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as agent of british gov’t then please raise your objection. When i replied aramis, she had nothing else to say

i have plenty to say but i feel its such a waste of my time but considering that you took my khamoshi as my acceptance i have to say this qoutes of mirza…it shows his utter devotion to british.

and for record jihad is only fighting against opression of muslims there is never agressive jihad as you ahmadi ppl imply. when ever Rasool Allah and sahaba fought in Ghazwas and battles it was done as a last resort and never were any ppl ATTACKED without reason.

[aramis]

@Mr.Popat

It is Allah’s wish whosoever He bless with prophethood. Umar Ibnul-Khattab must be a very pious person, but could not become a prophet… so was the case with so many people at the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and after him.. It is Allah’s will to guide whoever on the right path or lead one to astray. It is indeed Allah’s will to grant the title of prophet whoever he pleases.

but what do you think Hadith means. YOU mean What Rasool Allah said was wrong??? the hadith means that if there would be a chance that a prophet WAS to come AFTER mohammadp.b.u.h. THEN IT WOULD BE Umar

if Umar was not given prophethood it was bcz no prophet is/was to come after Mohammad:saw2:
this is good example of you rejecting hadith and making your own meaning.

this is the respect shown to hazrat abuhurairah from whom sooooo many ahadiths are related which are sahih ahadith.

[d-tox.ed]

@aramis

i have plenty to say but i feel its such a waste of my time but considering that you took my khamoshi as my acceptance i have to say this qoutes of mirza…it shows his utter devotion to british.

and for record jihad is only fighting against opression of muslims there is never agressive jihad as you ahmadi ppl imply. when ever Rasool Allah and sahaba fought in Ghazwas and battles it was done as a last resort and never were any ppl ATTACKED without reason.

DID you ever read the reply I made on this subject?..at all?..all your points have been clarified in that post…if you think something is missing then please post..otherwise there is no need to pro long the argument unnecessarily.

[d-tox.ed]

@aramis

but what do you think Hadith means. YOU mean What Rasool Allah said was wrong??? the hadith means that if there would be a chance that a prophet WAS to come AFTER mohammadp.b.u.h. THEN IT WOULD BE Umar

if Umar was not given prophethood it was bcz no prophet is/was to come after Mohammad:saw2:
this is good example of you rejecting hadith and making your own meaning.

this is the respect shown to hazrat abuhurairah from whom sooooo many ahadiths are related which are sahih ahadith.

Rasoolullah SAW also said on death of Ibrahim (his SAW son) that if he had lived longer then he would have surely become a Prophet…so now we have three examples of Prophet.

[d-tox.ed]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

BTW I havent seen any ALLEGATIONS lately.....The thread is not created to discuss main stream topics on faith hence please keep to the topic.

[aramis]

@d-tox.ed

Rasoolullah SAW also said on death of Ibrahim (his SAW son) that if he had lived longer then he would have surely become a Prophet…so now we have three examples of Prophet.

i have never heard it…give reference.

impossible that its true. as there can not be a prophet after Mohammad

[aramis]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

you guys have all the answers to why mirza saw that he was god, or he is isa or maryam or Mohammad. but i write a FAMOUS hadith
the Prophet, Allah’s Peace and Blessings be upon him, said: “If there be a Prophet after me, that would be `Omar ibnul-Khattab.”

and the answer is Allah ki marzi???
that is so bad. u are soooo willing to say Allah ki marzi when a hadith is naratted to u but u ppl go to lllllooooooooooonnnng length to explain mirza ghulam being a god and all prophets in one, yeah mehdi too.

i find that you do not have any respect fo MUSLIMS last Prophet. saying that ooohhh nobody respects Mohammad more than us …and then IGNORING and putting aside CASUALLY a sahi hadith!!! shame on you .your actions are exactly like two men that noor ud din zangi had killed. pious to show off and trick the world.

so many ahadith say Mohammad:saw2: being last messanger and prophet and sooo many Ahadith say abt coming of Isa. u say no mirza said no …so we say no. you are rejecting hadith, you are putting mirza above prophet Mohammad:saw2:
you are not muslim. your actions speak.

detoxed if u are bored u can look at the last pg that i posted above. u can answer that how mirza thinks he is better that hazrat Abu huraira.

[Bigboi]

@aramis

i have never heard it…give reference.

impossible that its true. as there can not be a prophet after Mohammad

**I’m sorry, but looool…this is a well know sentence of our Prophet (saw)
**

[aramis]

I'm sorry, but looool....this is a well know sentence of our Prophet (saw)

**Then give reference !!!!!!!! **
who narrated it?
*** in which book is it mentioned?***

[aramis]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

this is what i found what Prophet said at the death of Ibrahim.

Toward the end of the Prophet’s life, his Egyptian wife, Mariyah Al-Qibtiyah, gave birth to a beautiful child, Ibrahim, around the end of the 8th year of Hijrah. Ibrahim died in the 10th year of Hijrah (632 CE) when he was still one year and a half. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) wept the death of his son. In his deepest grief, he uttered these words:

“Allah knows, Ibrahim, how far we feel sorrowful for your departure. The eyes tear and the heart grieves, but we will say nothing except what pleases Allah.”(Al-Bukhari)

The death of Ibrahim coincided with a solar eclipse. People from ancient times believed that solar and lunar eclipses might be caused by the death of some important person. The people of Madinah began attributing the eclipse to the death of the Prophet’s son, Ibrahim. Greatly displeased by this, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) gathered the people and addressed them, saying:
“Eclipses of the sun and the moon are not caused by the death of any human being; they are two of Allah’s signs. When you see the eclipse, you should show gratefulness to Almighty Allah and offer prayer to Him.”(Al-Bukhari

Ibrahim fell seriously ill sometime after the Battle of Tabuk at which time he was reported as being either sixteen or eighteen months old. He was moved to a date orchard near the residence of his mother, under her care and her sister Sirin. When it was clear that he would not likely survive Muhammad was informed[2]](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/#cite_note-Haykal-1).

His reaction to the news is reported as:

He was so shocked at the news that he felt his knees could no more carry him, and asked Abd al Rahman ibn Awf to give him his hand to lean upon. He proceeded immediately to the orchard and arrived in time to bid farewell to an infant dying in his mother’s lap. Muhammad took the child and laid him in his own lap with shaking hand. His heart was torn apart by the new tragedy, and his face mirrored his inner pain. Choking with sorrow, he said to his son, “O Ibrahim, against the judgement of God, we cannot avail you a thing,” and then fell silent. Tears flowed from his eyes. The child lapsed gradually, and his mother and aunt watched and cried loudly and incessantly, but the Prophet never ordered them to stop. As Ibrahim surrendered to death, Muhammad’s hope which had consoled him for a brief while completely crumbled. With tears in his eyes he talked once more to the dead child: “O Ibrahim, were the truth not certain that the last of us will join the first, .we would have mourned you even more than we do now.” A moment later he said: “The eyes send their tears and the heart is saddened, but we do not say anything except that which pleases our Lord. Indeed, O Ibrahim, we are bereaved by your departure from us.”[2]](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/#cite_note-Haykal-1)\

He was so shocked at the news that he felt his knees could no more carry him, and asked Abd al Rahman ibn Awf to give him his hand to lean upon. He proceeded immediately to the orchard and arrived in time to bid farewell to an infant dying in his mother’s lap. Muhammad took the child and laid him in his own lap with shaking hand. His heart was torn apart by the new tragedy, and his face mirrored his inner pain. Choking with sorrow, he said to his son, “O Ibrahim, against the judgement of God, we cannot avail you a thing,” and then fell silent. Tears flowed from his eyes. The child lapsed gradually, and his mother and aunt watched and cried loudly and incessantly, but the Prophet never ordered them to stop. As Ibrahim surrendered to death, Muhammad’s hope which had consoled him for a brief while completely crumbled. With tears in his eyes he talked once more to the dead child: “O Ibrahim, were the truth not certain that the last of us will join the first, .we would have mourned you even more than we do now.” A moment later he said: "The eyes send their tears and the heart is saddened, but we do not say anything except that which pleases our Lord. Indeed, O Ibrahim, we are bereaved by your departure from us

[aramis]

Rasoolullah SAW also said on death of Ibrahim (his SAW son) that if he had lived longer then he would have surely become a Prophet....so now we have three examples of Prophet.

i am waiting for reference to the above qoute from detoxed and bigboi...as they say its a famous hadith.

[Mr.Popat]

@aramis

you guys have all the answers to why mirza saw that he was god, or he is isa or maryam or Mohammad. but i write a FAMOUS hadith
the Prophet, Allah’s Peace and Blessings be upon him, said: “If there be a Prophet after me, that would be `Omar ibnul-Khattab.”

and the answer is Allah ki marzi???
that is so bad. u are soooo willing to say Allah ki marzi when a hadith is naratted to u but u ppl go to lllllooooooooooonnnng length to explain mirza ghulam being a god and all prophets in one, yeah mehdi too.

m’am when you talk about the finality of Prophethood, how could you ever forget the coming of Eesa(AS), and how He (AS) is being regarded as Prophet. Why dont you sort your own beliefs first and then start judging others. Prophet Muhammad PBUH IS the LAST prophet and then Eesa (AS) WILL come in the latter days.. wheres the finality of Prophethood?? You are now gonna say He(AS) was born before MuhammadPBUH. Well, that still wouldnt make sense as Hazrat Eesa (AS) WILL be the LAST prophet for the whole mankind according to you. Either you accept theres no prophet after MuhammadPBUH and reject the prophethood of Eesa (AS) in His second coming or change the meaning of the word Khatam.. you cannot have two contradicting beliefs at once. Make up your mind.

@aramis

i find that you do not have any respect fo MUSLIMS last Prophet. saying that ooohhh nobody respects Mohammad more than us …and then IGNORING and putting aside CASUALLY a sahi hadith!!! shame on you .your actions are exactly like two men that noor ud din zangi had killed. pious to show off and trick the world.

Enough with you already. Why is it that when Ahmadis reply you, your mind just shuts off completely? first off Muhammad PBUH is the prophet of Allah sent for the whole humankind, and not just to a specific area of the world , like Jesus (AS). Secondly, can you please provide me with reference to that hadith? Quote me that full hadith from Sahih tirmadhi.. and you will get my reply then.

@aramis

so many ahadith say Mohammad:saw2: being last messanger and prophet and sooo many Ahadith say abt coming of Isa. u say no mirza said no …so we say no. you are rejecting hadith, you are putting mirza above prophet Mohammad:saw2:
you are not muslim. your actions speak.

Last in what sense? what has he finished? Is it a sense of pride that no one now can become an ummat nabi ? how do you define Islam as the living religion? it is only ritualistic if one doesnt strive to be the best of the best in order to receive the anaam as Allah has promised. The anaam of Prophethood,Shohdaah (martyrdom), saaleeheen ? What has prophet Muhmmad PBUH finished? If you mean all the prophethood before him, then all the prophets died a natural death before Him by Allah’s wish, BUT Jesus (AS) according to you is still up in heavens, so what has Muhammad PBUH done as the last ? However, **if you are a believer of Jesus (AS) second coming , then you also have to believe there is a reason of His coming, if Muslims will be on the right path till the day of judgement, why was the need of Allah to send down Jesus (AS) again? It however doesnt make sense for Allah to make ProphetMuhammadpBUH as the LAST and still feel the need of a previous prophet to be sent down. Please elaborate. **

[d-tox.ed]

@aramis

i have never heard it…give reference.

impossible that its true. as there can not be a prophet after Mohammad

Today you shall learn something new.

After the funeral service of his son Ibrahim, the Holy Prophet is reported to have said: “If Ibrahim had lived he would have become a true prophet.” (Ibn Majah, Kitab-al-Janaiz, Ch. Prayer for the Messenger’s son and the mention of his death)

[WhateverFloatsUrBoat]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

mr. p, there’s no point in arguing with these people their hearts and close and they are deaf to the true islam- ahmadiyyat

73 Divisions in Islam and One True Jama’at

Hmm there will be 73 sects in Islam and all will be in the fire except one, what a coincidence how many time 72 jamaat have united to attack ahmadiyyat.

That’s all i’m gonna say because those who whose hearts are closed cannot listen to anything with a sincere heart. As I have seem many times in real life- gher Ahmadies are afraid to listen to anything because they don’t want to convert. they are just blindly following what their elders have taught them.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

^^ u are right but i dont know why they dont think about what we say with neutral mind.

Hazrat Muhammad PBUH >>LAST (however its seal , but o well)..prophet in its literal meaning, NO prophet can ever come "after" HIM.

Since no prophet can come AFTER Him(SAW),BUT theres STILL a need of a prophet for Muslims.. oops.. what do we do now??..ohh good idea... theres one Prophet that Allah raised up alive, which CAN come.

Thus, no prophet can come after Him but whoever was BEFORE Him CAN come.

[inuit]

to me you are kaafir of Imam Mahdi (AS). Please explain how me accepting Imam Mahdi would make me kafir ? Provide reference from Quran.

Why are you asking me to find the ayat from quran for you. Dont you have Aql' to understand the simple fact. If i tell you 2+2=4 and you say "i wouldnt accept it until you prove it from an ayah of quran. this is funny. It is not more then 2+2=4 for me to understand. You go and use these kinds of wahabi tricks to somebody else not me. I dont say that these kinds of ayat what i am trying to explain these simple facts which out refering it to quran, are not in quran.

I can take the issue the other way too. I can ask you to prove your arguments from quran. Then we will go to the arguments of intrepretations. I dont say its useless to go back to quran. but i am saying; why would you goto quran for every little thing like 2+2=4. God gave you Aql'. Dont limit it in your belief system.

Who is saying "accepting TRUE Imam Mahdi will make you kafir". I am saying "accepting a FALSE Imam Mahdi will make you a kafir" AS WELL. My objection is "Kaafir of". I am saying the rejector of a TRUE Mahdi is (TOTAL) Kafir, not just a "kaafir of Mahdi".

The statement of your 2nd Khalifa clearly states it and now i am giving you the translation of that statement.

SEE THE URDU TEXT IN MY PREVIOUS POST

" ... to me (2nd khalifa) it is obligatory on all human being to accept (this) revelation of God which was reveal on Promised Messiah (AS) that is why according to the teachings of Quran **those who rejects it are kafir* even if they accept the other truths."*

Note: May i ask from which quranic verse he is refering to?

He clearly says those people are kafir. not just "Kafir of" (a single requirement/belief/aqeeda). and he added that EVEN if they accept the other truths. like they believe in Tawheed, Qayamah, Kalima, quran etc etc. still they are (TOTAL) Kafir (not a kafir of).

Listen buddy.. its as simple as that. You provide me with the definition of a Muslim and we can both move on to something else. ....

.... Meaning, anything that a Muslim IS NOT suppose to believe would make him a kafir. It will make everything crystal clear. Also, keep in mind when writing the definition , please do let us all know if theres a consensus amongst all the Ullama e Islam.

Let me make you happy: the simplest i should say "all those who profess Islam by the Kalima e Shahada are Muslims". and I agree with you that "anything that a Muslim IS NOT suppose to believe would make him a kafir". This is the same as your 2nd Khalifa said; the scanned image is attached.

example #1: If you see a person who recites Kalima and after that while discussion if you find that he believe in Syed Muhammad Janpuri (1443 - 1505 CE) as The Imam E Mehdi Aakhiruzamaa. He is a Kafir.

example #2: If we look the issue from your prospective; even if i recite Kalima i am kafir becuase i denied the true Imam.

example #3: In my view you as a muslim not suppose to believe in a false imam, that is why you are kafir.

That is why asking for the definition of a Muslim does not make any sense to me. It really matter to me.

Why do you twist the question? the question is simple.. if u happen to believe Imam Mahdi (AS) in ur lifetime, will u be ok if other Muslims call you kaafir? I understand you're gonna say either one of them will be kaafir.. but how? Kaafir means "the denier" ..therefore, you will keep calling other Muslims kafir while other will be busy issuing fatwas against you. So what are we arguing about ??

This is the actual point where i wanted you to bring. that "So what are we arguing about ?"

You should not get annoy or get teased when a Muslim (non-Ahmadi) use the term kafir for you. and same is for non-ahmadi muslims. (however i will raise another question afterwards).

I did not expect you to copy/paste your own answers and present it again. Definition of Muslim is a big question which can answer who is Kafir and who isnt.

explained above in the same post

Question was if you believe that what you have been believing is the true teachings of Islam. that was your answer? daleel from Aql can only be applied if you use your aql. You let your Mullahs issue unnecessary fatwas.. and people like you start acting upon it without seeing whether your Mullah is guiding you to the right path or not. Is this wat you call Aql? Start acting upon Islam , the religion of Allah, and not the religion of Mullahs.. theres a huge difference there, one need good eye to see the difference.

I agree.. fatwa will not make you kafir or muslim, if you are muslim, you are muslim and if you are kafir you are kafir. I believe Fatwa is only on those issues which were not known by muslims. It already known that believer of a false prophet or disbeliever of a true prophet is kafir, he is kafir. Fatwa is not required for that.

You tried acting very clever but unfortunately wasnt all that clever of you. That above statement can only be applied in cases when one ask question and the other clarifies it and then the questioner dont raise any objection on it and move to another topic. In your case, you asked question i replied with questions in ur reply and now your replies are not the answers of my questions at all... I need not to object on anything..infact you know very well what the objection should be from my side.. that is clarify the term Muslim for me. Infact, me only saying that I am still not satisfied with your answers and raise few questions ( as i have earlier ) would be more than enough as proof that i raised objections. In aramis case you theres not even a hint that she had objection.

Bhi - you are falsely justifying yourself. If you not satisfied with jawab-ul-jawab it is your moral responsiblity to raise the objection. I was thinking that either you dont have answer or you just agreed.

Reply will be given to you tomorrow Inshallah. However, in the meanwhile I do suggest you to atleast read the whole page that you posted and not just the underlined parts of it. I hope you do understand what you posted.

It is obvious; one must need time to answer question. you might have other things to do. not a problem. thx

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya

@inuit

Why are you asking me to find the ayat from quran for you. Dont you have Aql' to understand the simple fact. If i tell you 2+2=4 and you say "i wouldnt accept it until you prove it from an ayah of quran. this is funny. It is not more then 2+2=4 for me to understand. You go and use these kinds of wahabi tricks to somebody else not me. I dont say that these kinds of ayat what i am trying to explain these simple facts which out refering it to quran, are not in quran.

Assalam O alaikum ,
If Aql is what you're asking me to use and provided that when Aql is used , one is easily drawn towards what science has to say about it. My respected brother, if it was up to the aql, then my aql ask so many questions within Quran that i would want scientifical answers to, but why do i not ask for the answers is because i have firm and i repeat ..firm belief in Allah and the final book of Allah. Moreover, if Aql is what you want me to use , then there are beliefs that I hold which needs one to use Aql (i.e: Jesus (AS) death ) why do you then not use your Aql in issues such as Jesus (AS)'s death/raised up alive.. why then faith comes into play and why one is then required to look in Quran ?..Whatever is in Quran and Sahih Hadith which dont contradict Quran is what i firmly believe in. Hence me asking you to provide me reference from Quran proving your point should not be funny. If its in Quran, I will accept it as truth with the next eye blink. My beliefs are not merely someone telling me 2+2 is 4. So again, provide me with reference that believing in Imam Mahdi (AS) (either false or true, that doesnt matter) will make one kafir. You did not say that it will make one kafir but you also fail to tell me who gave one the authority to judge if one is the Imam Mahdi or not? and then automatically saying that BECAUSE they believe in "false" <<( remember false according to you) Imam Mahdi , that makes them kafir. Its the ahadith from which we confirm the true or false mahdi (AS), and not just mere assumptions by people whether they "think" one is true or false claimant. Therefore, without enough knowledge about true or false , one must avoid giving fatwas against Jamaat e Ahmadiyya.

@inuit

I can take the issue the other way too. I can ask you to prove your arguments from quran. Then we will go to the arguments of intrepretations. I dont say its useless to go back to quran. but i am saying; why would you goto quran for every little thing like 2+2=4. God gave you Aql'. Dont limit it in your belief system.

Who is saying "accepting TRUE Imam Mahdi will make you kafir".** I am saying "accepting a FALSE Imam Mahdi will make you a kafir" AS WELL**. My objection is "Kaafir of". I am saying the rejector of a TRUE Mahdi is (TOTAL) Kafir, not just a "kaafir of Mahdi".

As i said above, you nor anyone else has the authority to declare if who we believe as the Imam Mahdi (AS) is the 'False' Imam Mahdi. But, then again, I ask you for the reference from Quran if believing in someone you call 'false' will make us kafir, to which you said its a simple fact.

@inuit

The statement of your 2nd Khalifa clearly states it and now i am giving you the translation of that statement.

SEE THE URDU TEXT IN MY PREVIOUS POST

" ... to me (2nd khalifa) it is obligatory on all human being to accept (this) revelation of God which was reveal on Promised Messiah (AS) that is why according to the teachings of Quran **those who rejects it are kafir* even if they accept the other truths."*

Note: May i ask from which quranic verse he is refering to?

Did i not ask you to atleast read the whole page before replying? Lets also translate the next few lines if I may..

" Ye, to me, the definition of a Kafir is that someone who disobeys any law of Allah, that by disobeying that law one is known as the disbeliever of Allah , and the disobedience of a law by which ones spiritual life dies. It is not so that this person is deemed hell in the hereafter. "

then He went on to say

" Therefore, theres a consensus amongst Muslims that whoever has not become Muslim, even if He has not heard the name of Muhammad PBUH has been known as Kafirs"

So there you go, it fits perfectly to what you raised objection on. Muslims are considered Kafir.. ( see the definition of kaafir in the small paragraph i translated ) if He (AS) despite believing that Imam Mahdi (AS) is suppose to come and rejects him. However, this makes them kaafir (denier) of Imam Mahdi (AS). Just as Christians are Kaafir for rejecting Muhammad PBUH. (though there are many places in Africa where people have not even heard of Muhammad PBUH or His teachings ).

To put it in a simple way, that attachment by 2nd khalifa was in reply to people who were issuing fatwas against Jamaat. If ALL muslim have the same aqeedah of Imam Mahdi (AS) to be appeared in the latter days, and if people recognize Him and accepts Him makes them kaafir then people who are actually issuing fatwas are the real kaafir for rejecting the ahadith of Muhammad PBUH, and rejected His truthfulness. It is not to be taken the other way. We accepted the person who was being prophesised , but people issuing fatwas against us will become kaafir for rejecting ahadith e nabwi SAW.

@inuit

He clearly says those people are kafir. not just "Kafir of" (a single requirement/belief/aqeeda). and he added that EVEN if they accept the other truths. like they believe in Tawheed, Qayamah, Kalima, quran etc etc. still they are (TOTAL) Kafir (not a kafir of).

reply given above. He went on to say that people are considered Kaafir even if they have not heard the name of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Christians are example, however they do accept the prophet of Allah namely Hazrat Isa (AS) but denied Muhammad PBUH's truthfulness. Kaafir my friend is a very vast term, which when used means denier of everything. Therefore, kaafir of Muhammad PBUH are christians and jews, kaafir of Imam Mahdi (AS) are the Muslims.

@inuit

Let me make you happy: *the simplest i should say "all those who profess Islam by the Kalima e Shahada are Muslims". and I agree with you that "anything that a Muslim IS NOT suppose to believe would make him a kafir". This is the same as your 2nd Khalifa said; the scanned image is attached. *

example #1: If you see a person who recites Kalima and after that while discussion if you find that he believe in Syed Muhammad Janpuri (1443 - 1505 CE) as The Imam E Mehdi Aakhiruzamaa. He is a Kafir.

La ilaaha IllAllahu Muhammadur RasulAllah. I am Muslim by your simple definition of Muslim. Glad you agreed with me that anything that a muslim is not suppose to believe will make him Kafir. Believing in Imam Mahdi is part of Islam and can no way be taken out of Islam. What our 2nd Khalifa said has been answered above.

Answer to your example : If a person recites kalima that means he admit that theres no worthy of worship BUT Allah and Muhammad PBUH is his messenger and his servant. Him believing whoever he wants as Imam Mahdi (AS) will only be seen as his pure love to Muhammad PBUH and nothing else. As i said, the standard of judging ones truthfulness of being Imam Mahdi (AS) are the ahadith. If from ahadith that person is following the false Imam Mahdi then He should not be following him in the first place, that means the way he judged Him as Imam mahdi was taken from something OTHER than ahadith which makes him slip the way of Islam.

@inuit

example #2: If we look the issue from your prospective; even if i recite Kalima i am kafir becuase i denied the true Imam.

example #3: In my view you as a muslim not suppose to believe in a false imam, that is why you are kafir.

That is why asking for the definition of a Muslim does not make any sense to me. It really matter to me.

I hope this whole reply of mine could make you think a bit about what i said. Me believing in 'false' imam mahdi can be judged by ahadith or Quran, which is why i asked you to raise your objections FROM Quran or ahadith if who im believing as Imam Mahdi is the false one. Unfortunately you found it very simple 'fact' and found it funny.

@inuit

This is the actual point where i wanted you to bring. that "So what are we arguing about ?"

You should not get annoy or get teased when a Muslim (non-Ahmadi) use the term kafir for you. and same is for non-ahmadi muslims. (however i will raise another question afterwards).

I will continue to object on this. My belief is that theres No other God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad (May Allah shower His blessings upon Him).. is His true messenger and prophet and His servant. I believe Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AleheSalam) to be the same one who Hazrat Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah always be upon Him) prophesised, until you can disapprove me, until then no fatwas of Kafir can be used upon me.

@inuit

I agree.. fatwa will not make you kafir or muslim, if you are muslim, you are muslim and if you are kafir you are kafir. I believe Fatwa is only on those issues which were not known by muslims. It already known that believer of a false prophet or disbeliever of a true prophet is kafir, he is kafir. Fatwa is not required for that.

By this definition of yours, if i was a christian i would use the word Kaafir for you for believing in the false prophet Muhammad (nauzubillah). Fatwas mean nothing my dear respect brother in Islam... fatwas have never changed ones heart..fatwas can make the govt act strictly and force them to act their way but it never worked and it never will. Ahmadis will continue to worship Allah and Allah alone, despite some of ur illiterate so called ullama e deen's miserable attempts to stop us. It just never work my dear respected brother, and it just never will.

@inuit

It is obvious; one must need time to answer question. you might have other things to do. not a problem. thx

Due to other work I am sorry for not replying you on time, but i did it on purpose too, as i expected you to read the whole page you posted and not just the underlined part. Anyhow, you have got the answers.. and thank you for giving your 'simple' definition of a Muslim upon requesting many times.

PS: brother, my intention by no means is to take anyone down or to prove that whatever i'm saying you have to take it as truth, but my attempt is to merely show u the second half of the coin which your ullamas have never shown. I hope that during all the discussion that i have been having with you i have not falsely accused you in any way. If i did, I apologize, and May Allah (SWT) forgive me for doing that. I also pray to Allah to bring unity amongst the ummah of Muhammad (SAW) and forget about the difference that we have and concentrate in spreading the word of Allah, the true teachings of Quran to the corners of the Earth. May Allah guide us to the path of which He has bestowed His blessings. Aamin.