Re: Allegations Against Ahmediyya
Why are you asking me to find the ayat from quran for you. Dont you have Aql' to understand the simple fact. If i tell you 2+2=4 and you say "i wouldnt accept it until you prove it from an ayah of quran. this is funny. It is not more then 2+2=4 for me to understand. You go and use these kinds of wahabi tricks to somebody else not me. I dont say that these kinds of ayat what i am trying to explain these simple facts which out refering it to quran, are not in quran.
Assalam O alaikum ,
If Aql is what you're asking me to use and provided that when Aql is used , one is easily drawn towards what science has to say about it. My respected brother, if it was up to the aql, then my aql ask so many questions within Quran that i would want scientifical answers to, but why do i not ask for the answers is because i have firm and i repeat ..firm belief in Allah and the final book of Allah. Moreover, if Aql is what you want me to use , then there are beliefs that I hold which needs one to use Aql (i.e: Jesus (AS) death ) why do you then not use your Aql in issues such as Jesus (AS)'s death/raised up alive.. why then faith comes into play and why one is then required to look in Quran ?..Whatever is in Quran and Sahih Hadith which dont contradict Quran is what i firmly believe in. Hence me asking you to provide me reference from Quran proving your point should not be funny. If its in Quran, I will accept it as truth with the next eye blink. My beliefs are not merely someone telling me 2+2 is 4. So again, provide me with reference that believing in Imam Mahdi (AS) (either false or true, that doesnt matter) will make one kafir. You did not say that it will make one kafir but you also fail to tell me who gave one the authority to judge if one is the Imam Mahdi or not? and then automatically saying that BECAUSE they believe in "false" <<( remember false according to you) Imam Mahdi , that makes them kafir. Its the ahadith from which we confirm the true or false mahdi (AS), and not just mere assumptions by people whether they "think" one is true or false claimant. Therefore, without enough knowledge about true or false , one must avoid giving fatwas against Jamaat e Ahmadiyya.
I can take the issue the other way too. I can ask you to prove your arguments from quran. Then we will go to the arguments of intrepretations. I dont say its useless to go back to quran. but i am saying; why would you goto quran for every little thing like 2+2=4. God gave you Aql'. Dont limit it in your belief system.
Who is saying "accepting TRUE Imam Mahdi will make you kafir".** I am saying "accepting a FALSE Imam Mahdi will make you a kafir" AS WELL**. My objection is "Kaafir of". I am saying the rejector of a TRUE Mahdi is (TOTAL) Kafir, not just a "kaafir of Mahdi".
As i said above, you nor anyone else has the authority to declare if who we believe as the Imam Mahdi (AS) is the 'False' Imam Mahdi. But, then again, I ask you for the reference from Quran if believing in someone you call 'false' will make us kafir, to which you said its a simple fact.
The statement of your 2nd Khalifa clearly states it and now i am giving you the translation of that statement.
SEE THE URDU TEXT IN MY PREVIOUS POST
" ... to me (2nd khalifa) it is obligatory on all human being to accept (this) revelation of God which was reveal on Promised Messiah (AS) that is why according to the teachings of Quran **those who rejects it are kafir* even if they accept the other truths."*
Note: May i ask from which quranic verse he is refering to?
Did i not ask you to atleast read the whole page before replying? Lets also translate the next few lines if I may..
" Ye, to me, the definition of a Kafir is that someone who disobeys any law of Allah, that by disobeying that law one is known as the disbeliever of Allah , and the disobedience of a law by which ones spiritual life dies. It is not so that this person is deemed hell in the hereafter. "
then He went on to say
" Therefore, theres a consensus amongst Muslims that whoever has not become Muslim, even if He has not heard the name of Muhammad PBUH has been known as Kafirs"
So there you go, it fits perfectly to what you raised objection on. Muslims are considered Kafir.. ( see the definition of kaafir in the small paragraph i translated ) if He (AS) despite believing that Imam Mahdi (AS) is suppose to come and rejects him. However, this makes them kaafir (denier) of Imam Mahdi (AS). Just as Christians are Kaafir for rejecting Muhammad PBUH. (though there are many places in Africa where people have not even heard of Muhammad PBUH or His teachings ).
To put it in a simple way, that attachment by 2nd khalifa was in reply to people who were issuing fatwas against Jamaat. If ALL muslim have the same aqeedah of Imam Mahdi (AS) to be appeared in the latter days, and if people recognize Him and accepts Him makes them kaafir then people who are actually issuing fatwas are the real kaafir for rejecting the ahadith of Muhammad PBUH, and rejected His truthfulness. It is not to be taken the other way. We accepted the person who was being prophesised , but people issuing fatwas against us will become kaafir for rejecting ahadith e nabwi SAW.
He clearly says those people are kafir. not just "Kafir of" (a single requirement/belief/aqeeda). and he added that EVEN if they accept the other truths. like they believe in Tawheed, Qayamah, Kalima, quran etc etc. still they are (TOTAL) Kafir (not a kafir of).
reply given above. He went on to say that people are considered Kaafir even if they have not heard the name of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Christians are example, however they do accept the prophet of Allah namely Hazrat Isa (AS) but denied Muhammad PBUH's truthfulness. Kaafir my friend is a very vast term, which when used means denier of everything. Therefore, kaafir of Muhammad PBUH are christians and jews, kaafir of Imam Mahdi (AS) are the Muslims.
Let me make you happy: *the simplest i should say "all those who profess Islam by the Kalima e Shahada are Muslims". and I agree with you that "anything that a Muslim IS NOT suppose to believe would make him a kafir". This is the same as your 2nd Khalifa said; the scanned image is attached. *
example #1: If you see a person who recites Kalima and after that while discussion if you find that he believe in Syed Muhammad Janpuri (1443 - 1505 CE) as The Imam E Mehdi Aakhiruzamaa. He is a Kafir.
La ilaaha IllAllahu Muhammadur RasulAllah. I am Muslim by your simple definition of Muslim. Glad you agreed with me that anything that a muslim is not suppose to believe will make him Kafir. Believing in Imam Mahdi is part of Islam and can no way be taken out of Islam. What our 2nd Khalifa said has been answered above.
Answer to your example : If a person recites kalima that means he admit that theres no worthy of worship BUT Allah and Muhammad PBUH is his messenger and his servant. Him believing whoever he wants as Imam Mahdi (AS) will only be seen as his pure love to Muhammad PBUH and nothing else. As i said, the standard of judging ones truthfulness of being Imam Mahdi (AS) are the ahadith. If from ahadith that person is following the false Imam Mahdi then He should not be following him in the first place, that means the way he judged Him as Imam mahdi was taken from something OTHER than ahadith which makes him slip the way of Islam.
example #2: If we look the issue from your prospective; even if i recite Kalima i am kafir becuase i denied the true Imam.
example #3: In my view you as a muslim not suppose to believe in a false imam, that is why you are kafir.
That is why asking for the definition of a Muslim does not make any sense to me. It really matter to me.
I hope this whole reply of mine could make you think a bit about what i said. Me believing in 'false' imam mahdi can be judged by ahadith or Quran, which is why i asked you to raise your objections FROM Quran or ahadith if who im believing as Imam Mahdi is the false one. Unfortunately you found it very simple 'fact' and found it funny.
This is the actual point where i wanted you to bring. that "So what are we arguing about ?"
You should not get annoy or get teased when a Muslim (non-Ahmadi) use the term kafir for you. and same is for non-ahmadi muslims. (however i will raise another question afterwards).
I will continue to object on this. My belief is that theres No other God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad (May Allah shower His blessings upon Him).. is His true messenger and prophet and His servant. I believe Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AleheSalam) to be the same one who Hazrat Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah always be upon Him) prophesised, until you can disapprove me, until then no fatwas of Kafir can be used upon me.
I agree.. fatwa will not make you kafir or muslim, if you are muslim, you are muslim and if you are kafir you are kafir. I believe Fatwa is only on those issues which were not known by muslims. It already known that believer of a false prophet or disbeliever of a true prophet is kafir, he is kafir. Fatwa is not required for that.
By this definition of yours, if i was a christian i would use the word Kaafir for you for believing in the false prophet Muhammad (nauzubillah). Fatwas mean nothing my dear respect brother in Islam... fatwas have never changed ones heart..fatwas can make the govt act strictly and force them to act their way but it never worked and it never will. Ahmadis will continue to worship Allah and Allah alone, despite some of ur illiterate so called ullama e deen's miserable attempts to stop us. It just never work my dear respected brother, and it just never will.
It is obvious; one must need time to answer question. you might have other things to do. not a problem. thx
Due to other work I am sorry for not replying you on time, but i did it on purpose too, as i expected you to read the whole page you posted and not just the underlined part. Anyhow, you have got the answers.. and thank you for giving your 'simple' definition of a Muslim upon requesting many times.
PS: brother, my intention by no means is to take anyone down or to prove that whatever i'm saying you have to take it as truth, but my attempt is to merely show u the second half of the coin which your ullamas have never shown. I hope that during all the discussion that i have been having with you i have not falsely accused you in any way. If i did, I apologize, and May Allah (SWT) forgive me for doing that. I also pray to Allah to bring unity amongst the ummah of Muhammad (SAW) and forget about the difference that we have and concentrate in spreading the word of Allah, the true teachings of Quran to the corners of the Earth. May Allah guide us to the path of which He has bestowed His blessings. Aamin.