all prophets have died.

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

" wa maa muhammadun illa rasoolun kad khalat min kable-hir-rusulu afa-en-izaa maata au kutilan-kalabtum alaa a’kabikum "

( from the koran,
the house of imran, verse 145)

" kuch nahee muhammad, siraf allah kay rasool hain, aur un say pehlay kay tamaam rasool faut ho chukay hain. to kya agar woh bhee faut ho jaain, ya katal ho jaain, to kya tum apni aerion kay bul phir jao gay?"

“Muhammad is naught but a prophet. all prophets before him have passed away. If he should die or is slain, will you turn about on your heals?”

=====================================================

This verse clearly explains that all prophets before prophet muhammad, have died, INCLUDING JESUS!

if anybdy has doubts and wants to discuss this topic, keep one thing in mind.
koran ki baat pathar pay lakeer hai..
so please refrain from negating the meaning of this verse by giving ahadith ( because any hadith which is against the koran can not be considered ‘saheeh’).

It is obviously and clearly written in the koran that jesus is dead.

for those who believe him to be alive, it would be an illuminating discussion for me as to how hey explain this verse.

2

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

3:144 Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude. TMQ by Yusuf Ali

3:144 Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. TMQ by Pickthall.

144 not 145. Clearly the two most trusted translators do not put an emphasis on 'all' unlike the translations you are using. I think its true to say that most translators wouldn't write 'all'.

Whose translation do you use?
What is your proof that ahmed mirza is a prophet or the mahdi or whatever?

3

Let me complete your statement "all prophets have died except Hazrat Eisa"

Now the worst thing is that a non believer, a Kafir is trying to teach us Islam, who does not even know the fundamentals of being a Muslim. Ahmedis are pure Kafirs, without any doubt. I am presenting some Ayats and hope that will take the evil curtain from your eyes and will enable you to know the reality. Still if you do not return than you may think that the Ayat in Surah Bakara summon, bukmun, amyun ... is for you

43.061
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

4.157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

4.158
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

4.159
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

3.055
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Wa ma alaina illalbalagh

4

Prerequisite for a logical discussion is the disclosure of referenced material meaning that if I am presenting something, fairness of discussion requires me to disclose that information. I would be very interested to find out the source of the translation that the author of this thread posted for that Ayat of Quran. Once that is disclosed, we can go on to discuss the topic..

5

Assalamualaikum,

This is not from Quran or Haith or anything, but I believe that Allah wanted to humiliate Mirza by taking his life the way he did. So I see his death as a sign of him being a blasphemer.

Other than that, I think the verses qouted by Brother Abdulla make it clear that Jesus(A.S.) will return. As I have read myself in Hadith, Jesus(A.S.) will return in the time of Mahdi(A.S.) and he will be the one to kill the Dajjal. And that's another thing that makes it impossible for Mirza to have been what he claimed.

6

Mudassar bhai,

being somewhat away from the norm, i dared to use arther j arberry's translation. but no matter what translation i use, i have given the exact arabic words as well as a vague urdu translation. claiming to be having religious knowledge, i thugh all you people had some knowledge of atleast koranic arabic, therefore its the arabic words that matter and not the translation. whatever translation i used, i compared it with your translations, and there is no difference whatsoever in the translations, so its not a point of discussion.

please also note that am not proving or disproving the ahmediyya belief or mirza sahabs truh from ths verse. please refrain from taking the discussion in the wrong direction. you are a wise and respectable person, and this kind of behaviour does not suit you, your beliefs, and your personality.

Abdullah sahab:

aap ka farmaan hai:
"Let me complete your statement "all prophets have died except Hazrat Eisa"
bhai jaan, when i said, all prophets have died, this was not MY statment, but that of the koran!
koran clearly states:
" kad khalat min kablehir rusul."
aur yehee statment is discussion ka topic hai:
" all prophets before him have died!"

but one thing that makes me wonder is, you call yourself a muslim, if you fear allah, then why did you have to complete his statment?
koran is a complete book, and if it makes a statment, it needs not be completd by you!

the question that arises is:

when koran clearly states that, " all prophets have died" then how can you negate the meaning of this verse? if jesus was alive, why did not allah mention him to be alive??
what does "kad khalat min kablehirrusul" mean? does it not mean all prophets before him have died? if yes, then why is jesus not included in these prophets? if he is not, why did allah not say, " all prophets except eesa have died "??
why are you negating the clear koranic statment?

===================

for your other verse, i will start a new thread.

7

Jewels, I am interested to know what you think of the other ayats that brother Abdulla quoted in his post, i.e. 4.157, 4.158

8

special,
this thread is about the verse i mentioned above, which clearly and unconditionally states that all prophets have died!
why are u talkin about other verses?
so are u speechless?

… and i’ll wait up in the darl for you to speak to me… and i’ll open up… release me.

[This message has been edited by jewels of insignificance (edited January 14, 1999).]

9

Mr. ins..
You are claiming that all prophets have died
(passed away) from this world including
Jesus AS, and you have produced a
translation of an ayah. Now if someone bring
another ayah of Quran, which mentions the
name of Jesus and suggests that he will come
back. Now you tell me who is speechless. Are
you trying to say that you belive in one
ayah of Quran, and not the other one. If
Allah SWT is saying that Jesus is coming
back, then first ayah, that you have
mentioned, excludes Jesus. Waiting for your
response.

10

Insignificance - you don't need to turn round and attack me. I have been following this discussion with interest and have just asked you a question about what you have already written. If you can't/don't want to answer it, just say so.

11

dearest abrar,

"Now if someone bring
another ayah of Quran, which mentions the
name of Jesus and suggests that he will come
back."

please take some time and explain it to me, which verse posted by you or anyone suggests that jesus will come back?? i went thru all the verses you posted, and i haf been going thru them all my life, but none of them said jesus will come back!

please refrain from lying.

even if this is the case, we will have to disbelieve in either of the verse?
no!
all the verses of the koran are in accordance with each other, and what this verse says has been confirmed by other verses too.

i thought we could discuss all the verses one by one, to avoid confusion. but it is rather obvious none of you has any explanation for the above verse, and are ignoring, and disregarding it!

what exactly do u mean by leaving this verse and talking about another one?
do u mean that (naoozobillah) this verse is lying?
if no, then hy do u not haf any explanation for this verse?

i will talk about the other verses too, but what is the guarantee that when i start talking about the second verse, you people wont put up a third verse and start talking about that one?

no matter how many verses there are, ALL of them are true, and must be in accordance. so if we arrive at a solution about this verse, it will give us a better chance to explain the meaning of the rest!

so if you publically say that you do not haf any explanation for this verse, and that i am one up on you , then i can start the other discussions too!

12

If you look Br. Abdullah's posting, three
ayahs that he has posted, clearly mentions
1. Jesus is not dead
2. He will come back.
Please try to use translation from an
authentic source, so we can discuss it. If
everyone start translating on its own, than
no need to discuss. Eveyone think that he is
right, and others are worng.

13

dear abrar,

i have already replied to the verses you pointed out. none of you had an answer to them. one or two of them have attracted a vague answer or two, but none of the answers to my post were relating the subject matter.it is needless to say you people have no answer to them. as far as translation is concerned, a source considered "authentic" by you might not be considered "authentic" by me. so theres nothing such as an "authentic source" and in order to understand koran we need to know atleast a little arabic. if you say i presented wrong translation of koran, then point out which word i tranlated wrong? and i will prove my translation right, from a sunni authentic source!! but first of all u need to point out which word i translated wrong!

14

Ayahs that I have mentioned, translated the
ayah that you have persented.

[This message has been edited by abrar (edited January 21, 1999).]

15

Assalaam-o-Alaikum,
I have read all the debate which is going on. And I am surprised that No proper answer has been given to the "Kad Khalat". Instead, you people tried to provide othe verses of Holy Quran. Why don't you answer this first and then go to the other. Now there is no need to get help from another verse to translate this verse as brother abrar is claiming. The reason is that none of the verse of Quran has conflict within itself. Neither do the verses have conflicts with each other. So we should be able to get a message from this verse and then we will look at others. There is no doubt that one topic is discussed in several verses of Quran and by looking at different verses we can understand the meaning better. But my question is that WHAT MESSAGE DID YOU GET FROM THIS VERSE? Personally, I feel that this verse clearly explains that all the prophets of God have passed away including Jesus.

KHUDA HAFIZ AND EID MUBARIK
MIRZA YASIR

16

jewels & mirzayasir

When we take versus of the Qur'aan for their meanings, it is of paramount importance that we understand them according to the understanding of the Companions(RAA), because as the Prophet(SAW) mentioned, they were the best of mankind. And their understanding of the Words of Allaah and His Messenger(SAW) are far superior to ours. We can sit back and debate an issue for days weeks and even years, yet not understand it how it ought to be understood. This is precisely why we return to the authentic narrations of the Prophet(SAW), rather than use our own 'akal' ignited by our emotions and desires while engaged in dispute. Further, if we don't take our explanations from the Prophet(SAW) and his Companions(RAA), then we can easily go astray, taking the destructive path of Satan.

After all, the Prophet(SAW) was sent to all of mankind by Allaah(SWT)as an EXAMPLE. So why then, do we reject his teachings and words? There is no better naseeya than that of Allaah(SWT) and His Messenger(SAW).

And when we turn to the Qur'aan, we find clear versus showing us that Ee'sa Ibn Maryam(AS) has not died, and will return. This is supported by many authentic Ahadeeth.
Similarly, there are certain versus in the Qur'aan which are either explained by other versus, or by certain aHadeeth. As there are some hadeeth that are explained by other hadeeth. And then as i mentioned we also take the understanding of the Qur'aan and the Sunnah according to how the Companions(RHH) understood the two sources.

Clearly, the Qaadyaanis have misinterpreted/misunderstood the verse given at the beginning of this thread. Their understanding does not comply with how the Prophet(SAW) explained it and how the Companions(RAA) understood it. The proof of this being the Ahadeeth where Muhammad(SAW) has explained Ee'sa Ibn Maryam(AS) will return.

Also an example, in Surah Bakurah, verse 34, Allaah(SWT) mentions the time where the Angels where comanded to prostrate to Aadam(AS) and they all did so, except for Iblees. The verse does not state, that the Angels 'and Iblees' were comanded to prostrate, but rather just states the Angels. So from this verse, one could easily depict that Iblees was an Angel. However, Angels do not disobey Allaah(SWT)! This is where other versus in the Qur'aan provide evidence to clearly state that he was from amongst the jinn, and also supporting evidence to suggest that he was a jinn, can be found in several Ahadeeth. And this is how the Companions(RAA) understood the verse.

Similarly, the verse in the opening of this thread, should be understood as it was explained by other versus of Allaah(SWT)in the Qur'aan, the Prophet(SAW) and understood by the Companions(RAA). Otherwise, if we take our own understanding and let our desires over shadow us, or one which was brought down by our forefathers, but carries no authenticity, then we can easily go astray and fall into the trap of Shaytaan.

... And Allaah Knows Best

May Allaah Guide us all

[This message has been edited by Qaasim (edited January 22, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Qaasim (edited January 25, 1999).]

17

Assalamualaikum,

So everyone wants to see where it says that Jesus is not dead and he'll come back, or at least how we can come to such a conclusion.

Well here's my explanation:
An interpretation of the verse stated by Jewels is the following:
"Muhammad is naught but a prophet. all prophets before him have passed away. If he should die or is slain, will you turn about on your heals?"

Other interpretations of the exact same verse, provided by Br Mudassar are the following:
"3:144 Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude." TMQ by Yusuf Ali

and:
"3:144 Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful." TMQ by Pickthall.

Now here are verses provided by Br. Abdullah:

"43.061
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

4.157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a
surety they killed him not:-

4.158
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

4.159
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on theDay of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

3.055
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Now if we examine the verse 43.061, provided by Br. Abdulla, and the verse provided to us by Jewels, if we take Jewels' interpretation, then there would be a contradiction. Although we disagree on many things, we all agree on the fact that there are no contradictions in the Quran.

Now let's compare the interpretation provided by Br. Mudassar and the same verse provided by Br. Abdulla. If we compare these two verses, there is no contradiction, so we can conclude that the interpretation of the verse 3:144 from Br. Mudassar has to be more accurate, since it avoids causing a contradiction which is caused by the interpretation provided by Jewels.

This is how the Ayat 3:144 does not confirm the death of Jesus.

May Allah guide us all.

18

Salam Masnoon Brothers

We need to understand Quran
from Prophet SAW, his
companions, otherwise we will
go astray. Because Allah SWT
says in the Quran,"Yudil-lu
bi-hi Kasiran wa Yahdi bi-hi
Kasirah". Meaning more or
less is It (Quran)misleadth
many, and Guideth many".

Vallahu Alam

Mirza Abrar Baig

[This message has been edited by abrar (edited January 22, 1999).]

19

Salam Abrar,

Do you mean to quote this verse from the Quran? Because this refers to those who 'disbelieve' does it not? You may be talking about something different, apologies if thats the case.

' Surely Allah is not ashamed to set
forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or
any thing above that; then as for
those who believe, they know that it
is the truth from their Lord, and as
for those who disbelieve, they say:
What is it that Allah means by this
parable: He causes many to err by it
and many He leads aright by it! but
He does not cause to err by it (any)
except the transgressors.'

20

you have an strange approach to the topic. first you tried to deviate from the topic by posting other verses, and not giving any clue whatsoever as to how you will explain this verse, and later on, when i replied to the verses posted by you, in four seperate threads, none of you was able to come up with any answer to any of the verse.

i posted those explanations on 16th of january, in the form of fourthreads relating to four ayats, and it is the 23rd of january today, and those threads have attracted no reply whatsoever, which is a clear proof over the fact that none of you have any possible reply to what i said.

now that i have started seperate threads for each ayat to discuss each ayat seperately, you people are talking about those ayats in this thread!

if you have any answer, or if you believe so much in the ayats you posted, why were you unable to give any reply to the seperate topics started about those ayats?

please refrain from ill logics. this thread is about the ayat ALL PROPHETS HAVE DIED! talk about otherayats in their respective threads!!

my question is.. if i believe for an instance, that jesus is alive, then will i have to believe that this verse i posted above is false? a muslim has to believe in all the verses of the koran, and none of the verses can be consideredfalse. if jesus is alive, if all the other verses posted by addullah show that jesus is alive, then why has koran said "kad khalat min kablehir rusul" ? many of you claim religious knowledge. can anybody explain how this verse is in accordnce with the belief that jesus is alive?