all prophets have died.

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21

Mr. jewel

First of all the translation you are giving is WRONG. The ayat under discussion does not say anywhere the word "ALL".

Secondly, this ayat is talking in general of the prophets that Mohammed SAW is just a Prophet like the prophets passed before him.

Thirdly, the ayats i have mentioned are in particular about Hazrat Eisa Alihissalam.

Fourth, as brother Ibrar mentioned Quran is always understood according to the sunnah, as we have lots of authentic ahadiths saying Hazrat Eisa Alaihissalam is alive so it guides us about the meaning of the ayat you are considering, i.e. it is not all prophets and it is in general for the prophets passed before Prophet SAW. And the aim of this ayat was that Allah SWT wanted to guide its servants at the critical time of the Prophets death, that if Prophet SAW will die or is killed, will you go on your heels and loose your faith. Subhan'Allah and like wise Hazrat Abu Bakr RAA said at that time that those who worshipped Mohammed (SAW) they should know that he (SAW) is dead, and those who worship Allah SWT they should know that HE will never die. Subhan'Allah.

Now i hope the topic is clear, other wise you can believe in anything you want. It is up to Allah SWT, He guides whom ever he wish.

Wa ma alaina illal balagh.

22

Dear Abdullah,
You have given a wonderful examples which clearly proves the Ahmadi point of view. When prophet Muhammad (SAW) died, all the companions (RA) were in a shock. Hazrat Umar (RA) pulled out his sword and said that if somebody will say that prophet Mohammad is dead, I will cut his head off. At that critical time Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) went to masjid-i-Nabwi and delivered a speach and he recited this verse. Now this verse says that the prophets before prophet Muhammad (SAW) have passed away. When companions (RA) heard this, they realized that the Holy Prophet (SAW) has really passed away. If we suppose that the companions (RA) had the believe that Hazrat Issa (AS) is alive in the heavens, Why didn't hazrat Umar (RA) said that no ALL prophets haven't died, One prophet is still alive and how Prophet Muhammad (SAW) can die if the other prophets haven't died. Think about it. This ayat is useless if we suppose that you are right. In riwayat it is written that Hazrat Umar said that it seemed to me that I have heared this verse for the first time. 

  Secondly, the reply to "ALL" is that God has only mentioned two ways of passing away of prophets in this verse. 1) They died their natural death. 2) they were slain to death. No thisd way of passing away is mentioned in this ayat. If Hazrat Issa was lifted to heavens by God, the why didn't God say, that one prophet was lifted too???

Thidly, it is very common in Arabic as well as Urdu that if you don't mention any exception it is understood that it is for all. God should tell that some prophets have died and some haven't. As we know that the word "Kad Khalat" is said without any exception so this means that ALL prophets have died.

You people are still stuck with other verses and don't have any answer for this verse. If you do have any answer then post it in other threads but before that please look the meaning of the word "rafah" in some of the good Arabic dictionaries.

[This message has been edited by mirzayasir (edited January 23, 1999).]

23

First of all word Rafa'e

If you ask any arab that if he fells down and wants someone to get him up what will he say, you will get your answer, he will say irfaani, pick me, raise me.

Now the ayah Kad Khalat min.....

As brother Qasim has also said before and i am also repeating the translation of Quran is always done in the light of sunnah, which enables us to understand the meaning of any ayat.

There are in particular ayats about raising Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam plus there are many many authentic ahadiths which say that Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam is not dead.
The ayat under discussion does not say that Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam is dead rather it in general say that as the prophets have passed before him.

For example in our daily life if we say that fulan class has performed well in examination, that does not mean each and every boy had got A+. It means majority performed well.

Similarly, it is a general comment, that like the prophets passed before him.

What i cannot understand is when there are in particular ayats about this topic then why are you so consious of this ayat in which neither there is name of Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam and neither Allah said that he is dead.
On the other hand there are particular ayats which say that ibn-e- marium Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam is not dead and Allah SWT has taken him up.

Now its up to you, how you want to catch your ear.

24

mirzayasir

You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. This kind of person is not liked in Islaam. You contradict yourself on several grounds, yet you still follow your devilish whims and desires. Your posting dated Jan 21 quotes: "Now there is no need to get help from another verse to translate this verse as brother abrar is claiming. The reason is that none of the verse of Quran has conflict within itself. Neither do the verses have conflicts with each other" ... and then you go on to say :"There is no doubt that one topic is discussed in several verses of Quran and by looking at different verses we can understand the meaning better."

You're correctly pointing out that there are no versus in the Qur'aan that contradict one another, yet you yourself are causing contradictions because of your whims and desires to support your feeble arguments. You yourself clearly state that by looking at certain versus "... we can understand the meaning better", yet you do not adhere to your own speach. Instead you mock the words of Allaah, by rejecting the other versus that clearly help understand the verse in question. You also mock the Sunnah by disregarding the authentic aHadeeth with respect to this topic, while Muhammad(SAW) has been sent to the whole of humanity as an EXAMPLE. Thirdly, you mock the understanding of the Companions(RAA) - the best of mankind - and are seduced by your misconception of gaining fame as a result of attracting an audience through lies. Fear Allaah. You reject the words of Allaah, His Messenger(SAW) and the Companions(RAA) and instead follow the desires and lies of a self appointed prophet who came with one of the many religions of Satan. Do you not fear the Hell Fire, or is your level of explanation and understanding far superior to that of the Muhammad ibn Abdullaah(SAW) and his Companions(RAA)? Both you and Jewels are diplaying a clear sign of Arrogance and pride - something which is hated in the Eyes of Allaah, and what the schollars have described as hidden 'Shirk'. The Prophet(SAW) explained, that the person with even an atoms weight of pride will not enter Paradise on the Day of Judgement. On an occasion when the Companions asked the Prophet(SAW) to define pride, he SAW said that pride is when the truth comes to you, and you reject it. This is exactly what you and Jewels are doing. The brothers have clearly given you evidence, from both the Qur'aan and the Sunnah to prove that Ee'sa Ibn Maryam(AS) will be returning, but you have rejected all of it, when you yourself admit that versus in the Qur'aan can sometimes be better understood by referring to other versus. So what is the problem??? Are you swamped in arrogance? Do you not Fear Allaah and the Final Hour? Come out of this Kufr and repent sincerely to Allaah, for in His hand is your soul, and not in the hand of Gullam Mirza.

I suggest you sincerely reflect upon what the brothers (and may Allaah reward them all) have been saying, and you take the evidence which has been presented into your beliefs ... or face the wrath of Allaah. Take it, or leave it, it's up to you.

25

Dear Qasim,
please do not try to change the real topic. the best thing i can do is to ignore you and pay more of my attention to those who are genuinely interested in the discussion.

Dear Abdullah,

---the meaning of rafa'

as far as the meaning of rafa' is concerned, i started a post about it on 16th january, but none of you could reply to it.
if you are so sure that you know the meaning of rafa' then why did u not reply to that topic.
is it not clearly showing that you people are trying to change the real topic?
i am starting the thread again, making sure you do not have a way to run away and change the topic.
please discuss the other verses in their appropriate threads. do not confuse the readers by mixing two or more verses with different context and different meanings. pay you attention to "kadkhalat min kablehir rusul".

---- All the prophets!

you have argued that this verse does not point to all the prophets, if such is the case, then we should see the verse which pints to jesus!

everybody here saw my new thread on 16th of january, where i posted a CLEAR statment of koran relating to the death of jesus.

none of you were able to reply to the topic!
one of you, hurled a personal attack at me and my personality, thus making it all the more clear that you people did not have any answer to that koranic verse!

i am starting the thread again, so that you can not succeed to confuse the readers!

if youare so much interested in the meaning of other verses, why did you not reply to them in their respective threads?

this is not a question from you, but a clear evience in favour of my claim that you are intentionally trying to confuse the readers!

26

Returning to the original discussion,

some of you have been giving hints as if saying that "passed away" or "khalat" does not mean die. none of you has openly addressed this point, because all you want to do is confuse a neutral reader. a few of them emailed me to make myself clear on this point.

i have a very clear proofs:

1) the context of the verse:

if you read the whole verse, it says, all prophets before him have died, and carries on to say, hat if muhammad dies, or is killed too then will you refuse to believe?

this verse poinst out that all the prophets before muhammad :
1) either died
2) or were killed

if jesus was up above in the sky, then it shouldve been like this:

" so if muhammad also dies, or gets killed, or climbs up the sky with the phisical body"

as this is not the case, we can safely conclude that all the prophets were subjected to only two treatments
1) death
2) getting killed.

2) the dictionary

the most authentic dictionary ofarabic language, taaj-uluroos writes:
"khala falaanun izaa maata"
if it is said, that "khala falanun" means that person has died!

27

Assalam O Alaikum brother Qaasim

I agree completely with you.

Mr. jewel
First of all the tafseer of Prophet SAW is better than the tafseer of any other book or imam.

Secondly, i have been repeating many times that Quran can never be understood without hadiths / sunnah of Prophets SAW. If it was possible then Allah SWT would have just send an angel with copies of Quran, distribute to everybody and that all. But Prophet SAW was send to make Muslims understand Quran and he SAW was a practicle example of Quran. So forget that you can understand Quran without the help of Sunnah.

Thirdly, i have adviced your community again and again to use an authentic Translation. The translation you people are using is false. Give my any authentic translation which says the word "ALL" in the above ayat and provide me the name of the translator. I think then we can discuss it further, If you keep on adding words from your own, and try to put the meaning which you think is correct, then its going to make it more confusing for you only.

Fourth, for your information its not in human power to climb the skies, so Hazrat Eisa (AS) did not climbed the sky rather Allah SWT raised him to HIMSELF.

Inn'Allaha ala kulli shaeein Qadeer.

And as brother Qaasim said you are arguing just for the sake of argument. You have seen ayats and ahadiths specifically saying that Allah SWT has raised Hazrat Eisa (AS) then still you are trying to prove one ayat of Quran against the other one.

28

Dear Abdulla and Qaasim,

Pleas when you read the posts, read it carefully. I wrote

"The reason is that none of the verse of Quran has conflict within itself. Neither do the verses have conflicts with each other. So we should be able to get a message from this verse and then we will look at others. There is no doubt that one topic is discussed in several verses of Quran and by looking at different verses we can understand the meaning better. But my question is that WHAT MESSAGE DID YOU GET FROM THIS VERSE? Personally, I feel that this verse clearly explains that all the prophets of God have psssed away including Jesus."

Now first I said that there is no need to look at other verses and then I said that different verses are helpful to understand the topic. This can be understood if you read further. I said that every ayat has a meaning of itself and then the other verses helps explain that meaning. and then I asked the question WHAT MESSAGE DID YOU GET FROM THIS VERSE? so I never said that you don't need any other verse for the explanation of an ayat of Quran. It only meant that first derive a meaning from this verse and then look at the other for elaboration. BUT YOU GUYS NEVER LOOKED AT THIS VERSE AND JUMPED TO OTHER VERSES AND SAID THAT THE OTHER VERSES SAY JESUS IS ALIVE. Now if you want to use another verse for the explanation of this verse is concerned, we need another verse that should have the same term "kad Khalat" used. I am presenting one of the verse please take some time to think over it. The verse is from sura-Maida No 76. It starts in the same way as the verse which we are debating about and then it states the same word "Kad Khalat" It says that Issa Ibne-Mariyam was a Rasool and the prophets before him have died. Now, all the Muslims believe that the prophets before hazrat Issa (AS) have died. Similarly when you use the same verse for prophet Muhammad, that also means that all the prophets have died. BECAUSE, no exception is given in either of the case.

As far as, Getting help from the Riwayaat is concerned I quoted the incidence of the death of Holy Prophet (SAW) but no one replied to that instead you started putting alegations on me and insisted that we should look in the other verses. You are continuing this debate just for the sake of debate, we are not. We give you new proves every day but you people don't have any answer. If you want to talk about other verses, do that in other threads. We will be very happy to talk with you over there.

*** One quick point that the verse which I have mentioned above has another big proof of Hazrat Issa's (AS) death. I will try to put it in another thread.

AT THE END I WANT TO MAKE THIS STATEMENT AGAIN THAT DIFFERENT VERSES OF QURAN AND ALSO SUNNAH IS VERY IMPORTANT TO EXPLAIN THE MEANING OF A VERSE (don't quote me on that again. I have explained it above)BUT FIRST SEE THAT WHATS THE MEANING OF THE VERSE INITSELF.

KHUDA HAFIZ

29

Excellent, the last paragraph of your post has enabled me to finish the discussion in this last post.

We see the meaning of the ayat under discussion, now the only confusion is whether all the previous prophets have died or not, since the ayat no where says the word "ALL".

Now we will try to take help from other Quranic Ayats,

Ok Ayat No. 1

Surah Nisa - 156
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Lets see one more ayat

Ayat No. 2

Surah Nisa - 157
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Its clear, well to be sure lets see one more :

Surat Al-Imran - 55
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Very clear, now lets see if hadith says something about it :

Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

Hope its clear now.

Wa ma alaina illal balgh

30

Dear brothers i feel yous have gone off the right track.Firstly all prophets are alive.Their flesh and bones may have died but their ruhs havent.Everybody seems to quote from the Quran to try and prove prophets are dead.These people are commiting a great sin when doing this they are not scholars of islam so they should keep their mouths quiet
and talk about something relevant.

31

Why is everyone getting tangled up in a discussion of whether the prophets have died or not. Useless contemplation is harmful for ones soul. Follow the Quran and bring it in your heart because that is the only way for salvation.

Later on
Zman

32

Dear Abdulla,

You are jumping to the other verses again and haven't replied to the verse which I have quoted in my post. The verses which you have quoted are probably quoted more than ten times in the previous posts and we have repeatedly told you that we will discuss those in the other threads laikin aap key kan par joon nahin reengaty.

Mr. Hayaan,

You are saying that the prophets haven't died. You have written that only their flesh and body has died not there ruh. Of course you are right but the death of body means death of a person. ruh of every person never dies. If we take your defination of death then that means that no body in this world die. If you are still not comfortable then you can think that we are discussing that the "flesh and bones" of how many prophets have died.

KHUDA HAFIZ

33

Abdullah,

by posting the same old verses that we have clearly answered to, in their respective threads, have announced that he has no reply whatsoever to our point!

so all the neutral, i repeat, "neutral" readers can see how these molvis have once again failed to push their beliefs through the little hole called logic!

As the result of this discussion has been clearly in the favour of ahmediya belief, i would concentrate on the rest of the threads.

thanks for the input everyone!

34

DEAR BROTHERS,

The meaning of word rafa, meaning of word mutavafa and some important verses are discussed in deatil in the new thread ::: JESUS ALIVE OR DEAD???

All the verses which you claim says that Jesus is alive are discussed there.

PLEASE READ IT

KHUDA HAFIZ

MIRZA YASIR