"All knowing"

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: "All knowing"

In short "God All Knowing" is an axiom it is not up for debate, we must work within the axioms not try to prove or disprove them ...

So we say ...

Given that God is All Knowing, and we have freedom of choice - we can conclude that we are responsible for our actions and God Knows everything that we do ... so we cannot escape the Knowledge of God, so we cannot do something that we will not be held to account for because nothing will escape the Knowledge of God.

It is as simple as that ... this trait of the disbelievers taking two or more of our "a priori" and create situations to conflate them causing discord is insincere as "a prioris" are not meant to be treated this way.

It is like saying:

Given x = 10

Therefore we can say that x + 5 = 15.

But what if x = 7

Therefore x + 5 <> 15

YES ... but x does = 10 that part has to be accepted.

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Re: "All knowing"

psyah, thank you for taking the time out for such a detailed response, I truly appreciate that.

[QUOTE]
this trait of the disbelievers taking two or more of our "a priori" and create situations to conflate them causing discord is insincere as "a prioris" are not meant to be treated this way.

[/QUOTE]

Before I comment further, I have to say that I am taking this comment of yours as generic and not particularly aimed at me for posing these questions. I don't expect you to jump straight to such judgment without knowing my true intent...unless you are, what they call, "all knowing". This last statement is a joke of course.

I will read through your comment in detail and reply soon (there's a lot to read and I'm kind of stuck at the moment!).

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Re: "All knowing"

A quick note, what is a priori (based on faith) to you could be hypothesis for another, esp. someone who might be exploring the fundamentals of the faith. While the intent can be malicious and, as you said, insincere, it could also be a sincere effort towards learning and realisation.

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Re: "All knowing"

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt ... Yes my earlier statement was supposed to be generic ... We have been cautioned by scholars of the past to avoid argumentation in such areas. There are however better rules of engagement that we can use to set things right.

Yes you are right "a priori" differs from people to people. Our "a priori" are the authenticated statements in our scriptures regarding the unknown - or ghaib ... We have to understand our universe within those "assumptions" but we do not call them assumptions we call them axioms - i.e. rules of belief.

We understand that there are tensions in core beliefs but we accept them in good faith ... they are not paradoxes - not true paradoxes anyway ... so the accusation of paradoxical beliefs is unfair. We assert that somewhere between the two somewhat juxtaposed positions is a truth that we cannot truly fathom, but it is there.

There are lot more basic examples ...

For example -

We believe we were created from nothing
But we also believe we came from God

We don't say therefore God is nothing or nothing is God ... we understand these in different ways.

Sometimes there are limits in conceptual understanding due to limits in language. So we accept that we cannot fully grasp it and we need not - as long as we resort to our hearts and experiences we can develop firmness of God's existence in other ways.

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Re: "All knowing"

This a refreshingly good thread for R&S.

Welcome to the forum, sceptic. You sound like a good addition to the forums.

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Re: "All knowing"

Answers to both question is No.

The choices were present and it does not mean that the choices were not present (or merely were illusions) even if God knew what exactly the person would do.

other way we can say that God's knowledge of future does not mean choices were not given.

The person had the free will and was free to choose.

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Re: "All knowing"

I put a silver shiny coin and a paper currency in front of a child.

I may know that the child will take the shiny coin.

Does this mean I did not give choice to the child?

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Re: "All knowing"

I don't think we have any free will or something like that & we don't actually choose our paths either by using that free will.Sometimes I think Allah makes us choose what he wants us to actually choose. Either Allah put that in our minds or puts us in a situation where we have no other option & have to do what Allah wants us to do. Obviously we are human beings, we are weak, we are prone to mistakes & we will react to the conditions & situations we are surrounded by but then again who is putting us in this situation? Allah puts us in. Who created us this much weak? Allah made us like this. I don't understand. I have been driving myself crazy for like ages now by thinking all this but there is no answer. I know people say we have free will & all that stuff, I used to think like that too but actually we don't. Free will is just an illusion that's it as OP said. It's all about balance. This is a cycle we all are in, may be a time cycle or something. We all are just playing our parts.

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Re: "All knowing"

No ... This is not the claim of people ... This is from the scriptures ... If you don't understand it, then don't try to ... For myself I am satisfied as there is plenty of room analogically to understand this ... Also faith has to be in scripture not in our ability to understand.

the free will of humanity plus the Qadr of Allah (SWT) both are true without doubt.

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Re: "All knowing"

Come on Psyah bhai!

You could have done better, and disappointed me here.:(

Why ask someone not to try understanding scripture and....force that person to agree with it without even trying?

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Re: "All knowing"

To all the **bolded **parts, I must say no.

Allah does not put us in any situation of conflict. We as human somehow choose or are dragged in to conflicting situation.

Aside from diseases and illnesses human suffer without their own fault, if human encounter any conflicting or opposing options, human are free to choose and their choice is what is tested by Allah.

After giving the mind and sending Prophets and scriptures which tells mankind what is good and what is bad, Allah/God is expecting human to act accordingly and not break the rules.

God does not make an individual to choose one or other option. The person does. And despite having a good option, if the person chooses the wrong option, then God is not to be blamed.

*Whole idea of reward and punishment from God in life hereafter (if one believes on it) depends on God being merely an observant and knowing what would happen next without interfering.
*

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Re: "All knowing"

God/Allah simply does NOT make any human what to do.

Human are free in choosing what they should do within their PHYSICAL limits.

Quran 6:149. Says, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all."

But Allah does not tell you which path to choose and He, expects you to do what is right, after you have been given the guidance through his messengers.

Also read Quran 13:31, 32:13, and 5:48. Similar messages.

Moral:

Don't blame Allah for your bad deeds and wrong choices.

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Re: "All knowing"

Peace diwana bro

Because ultimately we are on this Earth to obey - it is only through the Wisdom of God that some people understand and others understand more ... but because of this spectrum of minds it is not a requisite to try to understand everything as that would be impossible. Especially matters of the Ghaib, unless we are already fairly capable with the rules of logic, grammar, science, we cannot tackle these points and even then some people fall astray attempting to do just that. It is better for them to trust those people who have arrived at agreements, because our faith is a combination of "aql" and "naql".

The theologian greats have warned that people fall into heresy when dwelling too much in such matters and as a result sectarianism results too. It is imperative that we know what our rules are ... what is the meaning of "axiom" ... because if such a thing was known then we would realise that both "Free Will of humanity" and "Preordainment" are axioms neither overruling the other as our belief structure requires. And axioms are not required for reasoning out. They are philosophically speaking "a priori" assumptions that describe the "starting point" of our system of thought.

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Re: "All knowing"

a question for those who claim that free will does not exist.
if someone has to choose between TWO IDENTICAL objects, how environment would affect/determine his/her decision?

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Re: "All knowing"

We all human beings are born innocent, it’s this environment we are exposed to, good & bad, which makes us do what we do. How long you can fight if you are exposed to bad environment,obviously you will act accordingly.At the end of the day we all are just weak human beings & nothing more than that.

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Re: "All knowing"

Allah Does put us in a situation of conflict, which we call as “azmaish” (exam). But when you are caught up in a desperate situation where you have no option left then as a human being you will obviously try & do something that is harmful & that thing will have its consequences too. One thing will lead to another.
Why you think such situations are there to began with? Because there is a balance. Everything in this world can’t be goody goody. Because if there is good then there is bad too, there is a no for every yes out there. If “yes” is happening to someone that will obviously mean that “no” is happening to someone out there too. There has to be a balance nahi tu ab tak qayamat aa jati. What will happen will happen no matter what.
If we will not do what we are meant to do then there will be a chain reaction, that’s why everything is working the way Allah wanted it to. Every incident that happen in our life, good or bad, have an impact on other human beings directly or indirectly because that particular incident involves other human beings in it. It’s a cycle we all are in. We are just playing our parts.

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Re: "All knowing"

Thats a rather simplistic view diwana. God knows what you will choose but he doesn't influence it, period. Thats pretty much as good as the God works in mysterious ways 'logic'.

Not being omniscient, you 'guess' what the child will take. The child CAN take the paper and surprise you. Doesn't quite apply to god. Think logic, not what we have been fed since childhood.

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Re: "All knowing"

You are looking at one side of the equation. Look at the designer, the design and the designed. Thats the complete equation. Two identical choices, A and B, are designed by god, if he knew even before creating the 'choices' and the subject who is to choose that he would choose A, that would mean that the choice B is merely an illusion since you cannot choose B and defy his prior knowledge of your selection.

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Re: "All knowing"

Thanks man. Its always good to bounce ideas off of other people and get varying perspectives. Esp when it comes to matters that we tend not to think about or question.

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Re: "All knowing"

That is the essence of my position.

God does not influence it. He lets the person decide.

Hence the person is responsible of his/her act.

Same way, if I gave the child two items. The child decides on his/her own. Not me.

Regardless of what God knows anyone in this world would do, and I knew what the child would do, it makes the person and the child in my example act on free will. Like I said, don't blame God for wrong choices you (not personally you) make.

*God will judge you for the action you had control on, not when you did not.
*
With all of his mercy, God/Allah gives a lot of chances to human and waits before He decides to put the person responsible.

There is a limit however where human have ability to choose. *And when the ability to choose is not present then, human are not to be punished for their acts.
*
If I get time, no promise but I will write more and basic rules of engagement between God and Human and that will answer 5amra also. Stay tuned. :)

P.S. Good questions by the way.